Pinned HE General and News - Discussion

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  • jaith1 wrote:

    So I am correct in assuming you want to be able to field 2-3 young dragons alongside MotCT and Sea Guard Reapers?

    Do the young dragons also have the S4 Ap1 breath weapons in your scenario above?
    No -- you are incorrect.

    I never stated anything about what I would like to field or not.

    Nor did I state anything about restrictions between or among choices.

    But by the way, I can already field the proposed unit comp, and it's not powerful. Young Dragon base is not strong enough to be overpowered, especially at the current points. If for some reason it dropped by a large margin, then potentially there would be something to worry about.

    Don't see any reason to remove the breath weapons, otherwise they'd be less points than Griffons, something I think you (and others) might object to.

    Kind regards,

    Axiem
  • Results from the Poland Master Series January 2020 at Krakow are up: tourneykeeper.net/Team/TKTeamleaderboard.aspx?id=3043 (thanks @albo_albo !)
    Also here (together with HE lists in the same thread): HE Lists Poland Masters - Krakow - January 2020

    Ranking of armies: tourneykeeper.net/Team/TKTeamcodexleaderboard.aspx?id=3043
    HE are first (!) Also quite interesting to see Saurian Ancients and Dread Elves in 2nd and 3rd place. DE only had 2 lists though.

    On the individual leaderboard there are 2 HE players in top 5 (one is @Furion): tourneykeeper.net/Team/TKIndividualLeaderboard.aspx?id=3043
    In top 20 there are 4 HE players.
    'He opened the battered book. Bits of paper and string indicated his many bookmarks.
    "In fact, men, the general has this to say about ensuring against defeat when outnumbered, out–weaponed and outpositioned. It is..." he turned the page, "Don't Have a Battle."
    "Sounds like a clever man," said Jenkins.'
    Terry Pratchett, Jingo!

    My humble Highborn Elves army blog:
    Elendor's HE army
  • @jaith1

    Axiem wrote:

    If we're talking about what I'd personally like to see, another choice in Ancient Allies besides Phoenix would be a good place to start. This would give meaningful options when considering between Phoenix / Drakes. Given the over-abundance of mount options, I would recommend (as I have elsewhere) transitioning Young Dragons to square bases and I would be fine if they moved to Ancient Allies at exactly the same points, even more points.
    This quote from Axiem is pretty much says it all.

    -----------------------------

    In regards to specific rules, I think most us who wan't drake riders don't really care about the specific rules. It's about making a cool army book with some choices.

    And like I said in my previous post about the characer young dragons and such:
    If you are happy with this:


    Then we'll have to agree to disagree.
  • @Axiem

    The point I am trying to make is it sounds like you want to have your cake and eat it too. We can currently fill out our character section with 4 young dragons, with potentially 2 of those as spellcasters. But you are saying it’s not good enough, while I think it’s actually pretty decent. I think the current book is designed very well in this respect because it gives players a very interesting decision.

    Maybe all it would take is a few tweaks from what we already have but I also think having 2-3 of these drake things only filling up AA while I can grab MotCT Princes, and slivers to be inviting a balancing nightmare.

    @elendor_f
    The real mvp is the QCav list with the 2 dragon commanders getting 16th place (65 points) but his team probably prioritized his match ups, would love to see a QCav list at singles.

    Hbe spread was:
    33-44-50-58-62-65-69-82-82

    That’s definitely an above average skew from a ~44 average last year...
    The change in font size of this post is purely accidental: my phone is stupid, and I am too stupid to fix it.
  • @jaith1

    It really sounds like your arguing against a hypothetical which you're holding in your head, not what I've written or expressed. The result of which is that you're attributing statements to me that I have not made.

    At the very least that's uncharitable.

    I think I made my point clear several times, without going into specifics regarding points, what's possible from a list-building standpoint, what potential builds might be overpowered.

    Asked and answered.

    Kind regards,

    Axiem

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Axiem ().

  • Fun fact: the 4th best performing and 2nd best HE player at Krakow Masters used a list with no BSB and a Frost Phoenix, widely regarded in internet wisdom as unplayable garbage. It seems a good sign to me (yeah, it's a single data point, before anyone points this out).

    @jaith1
    It's very nice to see the QCav list as 4th best HE list. I believe you can check his matchups in the link, if you are curious.

    Regarding Drake Large Cav, I think you should be addressing @Axiem 's points instead of accusing him of having power creep hidden intentions.
    For instance, regarding the Young Dragon spam already possible now:

    Axiem wrote:

    But by the way, I can already field the proposed unit comp, and it's not powerful. Young Dragon base is not strong enough to be overpowered, especially at the current points. If for some reason it dropped by a large margin, then potentially there would be something to worry about.
    Re-distribution of mounts and AA category and limitations (spoiler because it's a long quote):
    Display Spoiler

    Axiem wrote:

    What do I think would be reasonable in a power/balance basis?

    High Prince
    - Dragon
    - Ancient Dragon
    - Griffon/Giant Eagle

    Commander
    - Dragon
    - Griffon/Giant Eagle

    Mage
    - Dragon (master only)
    - Ancient Dragon (master only)

    Ancient Allies
    - Frost Phoenix
    - Fire Phoenix
    - Young Dragon Mage (Flaming Sword / Fireball bounds)
    - Young Dragon Ryma


    Happy to discuss limits of 0-1 // 0-2, but honestly if you get the points right, you wouldn't need to put those in place.

    Try to refute these points (apologies if I missed some, these seemed the most crucial to me) instead of essentially saying "this guy wants power creep under the guise of getting a new unit to the army!".

    For what it's worth, I personally don't really care for Drake Riders or HE Large Cav new units, but I think the people who want them (like @Axiem or @Aenarion43 ) have some interesting points worth debating instead of telling them to shut up.
    'He opened the battered book. Bits of paper and string indicated his many bookmarks.
    "In fact, men, the general has this to say about ensuring against defeat when outnumbered, out–weaponed and outpositioned. It is..." he turned the page, "Don't Have a Battle."
    "Sounds like a clever man," said Jenkins.'
    Terry Pratchett, Jingo!

    My humble Highborn Elves army blog:
    Elendor's HE army
  • @jaith1

    FYI, "3 young dragons + MoCT Prince" was 100% an actual build that could be used in 1.3 (Back when you had "Path of Life", which was better than full druidism, and had access better/stronger magic items). You lost access to Naval Ordinance, but it was compensated by improving Ancient Allies and characters. That build was NEVER game breaking. Honestly, it wasn't even a competitive build, much less a "top level" build (that honor goes to "corner castle with Lion Chariot Lord or Ancient Dragon").

    My opinion is that it would likely be EASIER to balance than "Young Dragons in characters" for the following reasons:
    1) You do not have to account for multiple magic item combinations.
    2) Unit limits and unit size limits come into play for limiting the unit.
    3) Ancient Allies provides a harder limit than characters
    4) There are less limits on design (which would exist in characters thanks to the overabundance of flying mounts)
    5) The profile of the rider and mount could be adjusted
    6) Queen's Cavalier upgrade is no longer potentially improving the rider further
    7) The unit is not limited to "roles acceptable to characters"

    The Sliver has no inherent synergy with this build. The MoCT *DOES* provide the benefit of healing. However, you are sacrificing mobility in exchange for access to his healing because they have to be within 12". Furthermore, you cannot reasonably expect to be able to heal more than 2 wounds in a turn (spamming low casting value spells so that at least 2 go through), which is unlikely to be able to keep up with most opponent's damage output. There *ARE* downsides to trying to pull off this synergy.

    We can currently do MoCT Prince (Destiny's Call, Sliver of the Blazing Dawn) + 3 Griffon Commanders (4+/6++, Lance). You can even add in a Frost Phoenix to the list! Yet there is NO such list running around at high level tournaments. If, as you suggest, such a build could be broken easily, then we would be seeing such lists doing well at events.

    At least for *MY* part, my point is this: We have an overly cluttered characters section that will be a nightmare to rebuild and balance in LAB. A likely superior option would be to remove some of the less useful aspects of that section, namely Eagle Mounts and Young Dragons, and use the available complexity to add other options to our book.

    The other two options I see are:
    1) Remove these options entirely for no compensation, which I would DESPISE ENTIRELY.
    2) Leave them in characters and accept they will never be balanced (Eagles would need to give a rebate on points to be considered playable, Young Dragons would be in a constant seesaw with Griffons).

    Those two options seem, to me, to be inferior options to "Remove them from characters and provide other options elsewhere".
  • @Axiem
    I come in peace! I apologize if I have offended you but I still don’t understand. What issues do you have with the ydragon spam currently available? The way I see it, it does compete with phoenixes because you have to balance between character mounts and our one AA unit entry. They ydragon doesn’t have to be a pure AA entry to do that.

    Assuming ydragons+riders are now a pure AA choice, and let’s say their riders were cheaper, so now a ydragon ryma knight is 350-400 points for 2A+1
    then I anticipate a direct power creep because it’s the cheapest access to that flaming S4 Ap1 breath weapon... imagine 20 QGuard, 3 Sea Guard Reapers and 2-3 ydragon breath weapons on T1-2...
    Pure ydragon choices will likely put the fire Phoenix in a weird place as well.

    The best way I think ydragons can be implemented:
    Just make it flat out better than a griffon but only let OotFH Mages take it in a normal list, but let commanders+princes also take it in a ‘QCav auxiliary list’ where other things would be restricted like NO...
    The change in font size of this post is purely accidental: my phone is stupid, and I am too stupid to fix it.
  • elendor_f wrote:

    a list with no BSB and a Frost Phoenix, widely regarded in internet wisdom as unplayable garbage. It seems a good sign to me (yeah, it's a single data point, before anyone points this out).
    in my experience leaving the BSB at home is common for HBE quite some time now.

    outside of the MotCT there is not much to gain from the BSB outside of panic check rerolls and the healing abilities of the BSB MotCT are useful only in the right context, like sustaining a single strong model that can compensate the shortcomings of limited range by zoning. you are otherwise limiting yourself to a 12 inch area in a fast but fragile army and I cant see how the MotCT BSB can support more than one model on his own (I am pointing at you @jaith1).

    for other setups you are better off using the MotCT for self sustaining a spear prince and leave the BSB at home.
  • On a different note, since Christopher Tolkien has sadly passed away recently, I will quote here one of my favourite parts of the Silmarillion (which C. Tolkien edited and published): the duel between Fingolfin, High King of the Noldor Elves, and Morgoth the Dark Lord, in the aftermath of the Battle of the Sudden Flame.

    Display Spoiler

    Now news came to Hithlum that Dorthonion was lost and the sons of Finarfin overthrown, and that the sons of Fëanor were driven from their lands. Then Fingolfin beheld... the utter ruin of the Noldor, and the defeat beyond redress of all their houses; and filled with wrath and despair he mounted upon Rochallor his great horse and rode forth alone, and none might restrain him. He passed over Dor-nu-Fauglith like a wind amid the dust, and all that beheld his onset fled in amaze, thinking that Oromë himself was come: for a great madness of rage was upon him, so that his eyes shone like the eyes of the Valar. Thus he came alone to Angband's gates, and he sounded his horn, and smote once more upon the brazen doors, and challenged Morgoth to come forth to single combat. And Morgoth came.

    That was the last time in those wars that he passed the doors of his stronghold, and it is said that he took not the challenge willingly; for alone of the Valar he knew fear. But he could not now deny the challenge before the face of his captains; for Fingolfin named Morgoth craven. Therefore Morgoth issued forth clad in black armour; and he stood before the King like a tower, iron-crowned, and his vast shield, sable unblazoned, cast a shadow over him like a stormcloud. But Fingolfin gleamed beneath it as a star; for his mail was overlaid with silver, and his blue shield was set with crystals; and he drew his sword Ringil, that glittered like ice.

    Then Morgoth hurled aloft Grond, the Hammer of the Underworld, and swung it down like a bolt of thunder. But Fingolfin sprang aside, and Grond rent a mighty pit in the earth. Many times Morgoth essayed to smite him, and each time Fingolfin leaped away; and he wounded Morgoth with seven wounds, and seven times Morgoth gave a cry of anguish, whereat the hosts of Angband fell upon their faces in dismay, and the cries echoed in the Northlands.

    But at the last the King grew weary, and Morgoth bore down his shield upon him. Thrice he was crushed to his knees, and thrice arose again and bore up his broken shield and stricken helm. But the earth was all pitted about him, and he stumbled and fell backward before the feet of Morgoth; and Morgoth set his left foot upon his neck. Yet with his last and desperate stroke Fingolfin hewed the foot with Ringil, and the blood gushed forth black and smoking and filled the pits of Grond.

    Thus died Fingolfin, High King of the Noldor, most proud and valiant of the Elven-kings of old. The Orcs made no boast of that duel at the gate; neither do the Elves sing of it, for their sorrow is too deep. Yet the tale of it is remembered still, for Thorondor King of Eagles brought the tidings to Gondolin, and to Hithlum afar off. And Morgoth took the body of the Elven-king and broke it, and would cast it to his wolves; but Thorondor came hasting from his eyrie among the peaks of the Crissaegrim, and he stooped upon Morgoth and marred his face. The rushing of the wings of Thorondor was like the noise of the winds of Manwë, and he seized the body in his mighty talons, and soaring suddenly above the darts of the Orcs he bore the King away. And he laid him upon a mountain-top that looked from the north upon the hidden valley of Gondolin; and Turgon coming built a high cairn over his father. No Orc dared ever after to pass over the mound of Fingolfin or draw nigh his tomb, until the doom of Gondolin was come and treachery was born among his kin. Morgoth went ever halt of one foot after that day, and the pain of his wounds could not be healed; and in his face was the scar that Thorondor made.

    Great was the lamentation in Hithlum when the fall of Fingolfin became known....

    The Silmarillion, Quenta Silmarillion, Ch 18, Of the Ruin of Beleriand and the Fall of Fingolfin


    There a lot of art pieces about this epic duel, I chose this one:
    deviantart.com/jmkilpatrick/ar…h-and-Fingolfin-277490102

    'He opened the battered book. Bits of paper and string indicated his many bookmarks.
    "In fact, men, the general has this to say about ensuring against defeat when outnumbered, out–weaponed and outpositioned. It is..." he turned the page, "Don't Have a Battle."
    "Sounds like a clever man," said Jenkins.'
    Terry Pratchett, Jingo!

    My humble Highborn Elves army blog:
    Elendor's HE army
  • Ai! laurië lantar lassi súrinen,
    yéni unótimë ve rámar aldaron!
    Yéni ve lintë yuldar avánier
    mi oromardi lisse-miruvóreva
    Andúnë pella, Vardo tellumar
    nu luini yassen tintilar i eleni
    ómaryo airetári-lírinen.


    Sí man i yulma nin enquantuva?


    An sí Tintallë Varda Oiolossëo
    ve fanyar máryat Elentári ortanë,
    ar ilyë tier undulávë lumbulë;
    ar sindanóriello caita mornië
    i falmalinnar imbë met, ar hísië
    untúpa Calaciryo míri oialë.
    Sí vanwa ná, Rómello vanwa, Valimar!


    Namárië! Nai hiruvalyë Valimar.


    Nai elyë hiruva. Namárië!
    Don't forget to bring a towel!
  • great spear elves and highborn lancers.

    Teclis looks a bit derpy. Eltharion is great but no application for 9th Age (please dont request MI infantry unit guys)
    I am the fat Turk that infiltrated the Norwegian Druid Caste.

    I would have been better than you if I could roll a 4 on 2D6.

    To crush your enemies, to see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentations of ELVES.

    Sylvan Elves
    Dread Elves
    Beast Herds
    Daemonic Legions
    Warriors of the Dark Gods
    Storm Cast Eternals (WAIT WHAT?)
  • Those cavalry models are pretty sexy. Also the monster by the side of Teclis can be used as a cool Griffon I think (not sure about the size...).
    'He opened the battered book. Bits of paper and string indicated his many bookmarks.
    "In fact, men, the general has this to say about ensuring against defeat when outnumbered, out–weaponed and outpositioned. It is..." he turned the page, "Don't Have a Battle."
    "Sounds like a clever man," said Jenkins.'
    Terry Pratchett, Jingo!

    My humble Highborn Elves army blog:
    Elendor's HE army