Discussion about overrun/pursue into 2 units

    This site uses cookies. By continuing to browse this site, you are agreeing to our Cookie Policy.

    The latest issue of the 9th Scroll is available! You can read all about it in the news.

    The brand new army book for Infernal Dwarves is finally available, along with a small surprise! Remember that it is a beta version, and provide us your feedback!

    • youngseward wrote:

      Herminard wrote:

      Did ye reach conclusion on my Qs? And a firm stance on forced multicharge overrun/pursuit once @Squirrelloid uses his google fu to dig out a fair comprehension of the paradigm of a permissive ruleset.
      Well Arthain confirmed the multiple charge overrun one. Not sure on the others

      This is abuseable. Cast frenzy universal from Shamanism and force contact on 2 targets on pursuit. Commonly 2 monsters.

      It smells really foul.
      I advice you look at it.

      I accept the ruling as given by @arthain.
      Hermund Vigerust Endressòn Furu - Savage Sage of the Norse
      Faux-pro player and ETC vagabond.
      Enjoys the company of deluded nerds and women of unquestionably low morale.

      Do not fall to the folly of the best laid of plans - for the mind of man is fickle in the face of the dice gods.
      Give yer high fives where yer opponents dice have been blessed, and in equal give yer handshakes when dice fall in malicious ways.
    • Herminard wrote:

      youngseward wrote:

      Herminard wrote:

      Did ye reach conclusion on my Qs? And a firm stance on forced multicharge overrun/pursuit once @Squirrelloid uses his google fu to dig out a fair comprehension of the paradigm of a permissive ruleset.
      Well Arthain confirmed the multiple charge overrun one. Not sure on the others
      This is abuseable. Cast frenzy universal from Shamanism and force contact on 2 targets on pursuit. Commonly 2 monsters.

      It smells really foul.
      I advice you look at it.

      I accept the ruling as given by @arthain.
      Then I guess you need more skill, to9 not get in that trap :)
      I haz a blog! the-ninth-age.com/blog/index.p…-the-moment-aslo-batreps/.

      Mostly KoE and ID stuff. Now also some Void
    • Petterwass wrote:

      Herminard wrote:

      youngseward wrote:

      Herminard wrote:

      Did ye reach conclusion on my Qs? And a firm stance on forced multicharge overrun/pursuit once @Squirrelloid uses his google fu to dig out a fair comprehension of the paradigm of a permissive ruleset.
      Well Arthain confirmed the multiple charge overrun one. Not sure on the others
      This is abuseable. Cast frenzy universal from Shamanism and force contact on 2 targets on pursuit. Commonly 2 monsters.
      It smells really foul.
      I advice you look at it.

      I accept the ruling as given by @arthain.
      Then I guess you need more skill, to9 not get in that trap :)
      I'm sorry, but i have been attempting to follow this problem to see the solution but this thread is quite the mad house and i may has missed the question, answer or both xD.

      What was the official bonified answer. Do you mind adding the original question as well.
    • Herminard wrote:

      youngseward wrote:

      Herminard wrote:

      Did ye reach conclusion on my Qs? And a firm stance on forced multicharge overrun/pursuit once @Squirrelloid uses his google fu to dig out a fair comprehension of the paradigm of a permissive ruleset.
      Well Arthain confirmed the multiple charge overrun one. Not sure on the others
      This is abuseable. Cast frenzy universal from Shamanism and force contact on 2 targets on pursuit. Commonly 2 monsters.

      It smells really foul.
      I advice you look at it.

      I accept the ruling as given by @arthain.
      Don't let them cast frenzy? Dispel exists.

      Also, that's just good play. I don't see the abuse...

      (And it requires that the unit centers don't change at all due to casualties, which will only ever be true in a front-to-front fight where the centers are perfectly in-line. Any offset and the center of the units will shift as casualties are suffered, making it hard to predict where the center will be - if you can manage to predict the line of flight perfectly to line up two units to receive the pursue, that's not just good play, that's masterful play).
      Just because I'm on the Legal Team doesn't mean I know anything about rules or background in development, and if/when I do, I won't be posting about it. All opinions and speculation are my own - treat them as such.

      Legal

      Playtester

      Chariot Command HQ

    • Squirrelloid wrote:

      Herminard wrote:

      youngseward wrote:

      Herminard wrote:

      Did ye reach conclusion on my Qs? And a firm stance on forced multicharge overrun/pursuit once @Squirrelloid uses his google fu to dig out a fair comprehension of the paradigm of a permissive ruleset.
      Well Arthain confirmed the multiple charge overrun one. Not sure on the others
      This is abuseable. Cast frenzy universal from Shamanism and force contact on 2 targets on pursuit. Commonly 2 monsters.
      It smells really foul.
      I advice you look at it.

      I accept the ruling as given by @arthain.
      Don't let them cast frenzy? Dispel exists.
      Also, that's just good play. I don't see the abuse...

      (And it requires that the unit centers don't change at all due to casualties, which will only ever be true in a front-to-front fight where the centers are perfectly in-line. Any offset and the center of the units will shift as casualties are suffered, making it hard to predict where the center will be - if you can manage to predict the line of flight perfectly to line up two units to receive the pursue, that's not just good play, that's masterful play).

      Congaline skirmishers (because of zero offset)and 5 dice frenzy - forcing an unfavourable fight in the opponents turn. I dont think its classy. I think it is dicey and gimmicky.

      I havent looked at details for angles, but I suppose that through use of tailblocking it is also quite easy to force a tilt of the offended unit by 15-20 degrees (depending 40/50/75/100mm tail).

      Whats also annoying is that it is time consuming, and argumentative and only possible through extrapolated and nearly metaphysical and theoretical maths.

      ...and we allow it by colatteral..

      Anyhow - I digress. Will not nag you about it anymore. I will bring it up for discussion where it belongs and keep my yap if word is final.

      Cheers,
      Hermund Vigerust Endressòn Furu - Savage Sage of the Norse
      Faux-pro player and ETC vagabond.
      Enjoys the company of deluded nerds and women of unquestionably low morale.

      Do not fall to the folly of the best laid of plans - for the mind of man is fickle in the face of the dice gods.
      Give yer high fives where yer opponents dice have been blessed, and in equal give yer handshakes when dice fall in malicious ways.
    • Herminard wrote:

      Congaline skirmishers (because of zero offset)and 5 dice frenzy - forcing an unfavourable fight in the opponents turn. I dont think its classy. I think it is dicey and gimmicky.

      I havent looked at details for angles, but I suppose that through use of tailblocking it is also quite easy to force a tilt of the offended unit by 15-20 degrees (depending 40/50/75/100mm tail).

      Whats also annoying is that it is time consuming, and argumentative and only possible through extrapolated and nearly metaphysical and theoretical maths.

      ...and we allow it by colatteral..

      Anyhow - I digress. Will not nag you about it anymore. I will bring it up for discussion where it belongs and keep my yap if word is final.

      Cheers,
      I agree with you, it shouldn't be possible (same rules as normal charges, only possible if nothing else is possible).

      It can really promote some cheesy tactics and IMO "worst play".
      Rules Questions?

      ETC 2016 - Referee
      ETC 2017 Warm-up Herford - Head Judge
      ETC 2017 Salamanca - Head Judge
      ETC 2018 - Team Sweden - Ogre Khans
      ETC 2019 - Team Sweden
    • but then you need exactly a round numbers of models left after the fight.
      If the left side has less models then the right side you already have not a straight flee and overrun way.

      Also in a congaline it is even more easier to evade because it needs to be big enough and since they don't move into contact anymore the monster normaly only comes into contact with 3 which means he can easily choose a contact point of his wish

                      

      Product-Search

      KoE Community Support

      Lord of the Hobby

      Follow my games here: the-ninth-age.com/community/in…%C3%BCnchen-und-umgebung/
    • Klexe wrote:

      but then you need exactly a round numbers of models left after the fight.
      If the left side has less models then the right side you already have not a straight flee and overrun way.

      Also in a congaline it is even more easier to evade because it needs to be big enough and since they don't move into contact anymore the monster normaly only comes into contact with 3 which means he can easily choose a contact point of his wish
      You are talking about pursues, not overruns.
      Rules Questions?

      ETC 2016 - Referee
      ETC 2017 Warm-up Herford - Head Judge
      ETC 2017 Salamanca - Head Judge
      ETC 2018 - Team Sweden - Ogre Khans
      ETC 2019 - Team Sweden
    • Klexe wrote:

      but then you need exactly a round numbers of models left after the fight.
      If the left side has less models then the right side you already have not a straight flee and overrun way.

      Also in a congaline it is even more easier to evade because it needs to be big enough and since they don't move into contact anymore the monster normaly only comes into contact with 3 which means he can easily choose a contact point of his wish

      Lagerlof wrote:

      Klexe wrote:

      but then you need exactly a round numbers of models left after the fight.
      If the left side has less models then the right side you already have not a straight flee and overrun way.

      Also in a congaline it is even more easier to evade because it needs to be big enough and since they don't move into contact anymore the monster normaly only comes into contact with 3 which means he can easily choose a contact point of his wish
      You are talking about pursues, not overruns.

      I am talking about pursuits, because that is the more exploitable option. Frenzybait as stalling have several strong tricks already. Frenzy hooking of units that dont want to fight you are less played, but no less powerful.

      I dont agree with you @Klexe

      You make a "dagger" congaline of skirmishing inf - like 8 or 10 of them. Something like core Mongrels for the example of it. Then charge the Mongrels into something valuable that does not want to fight the big monsters of the beasts (or minolord) - like a mage bunker or something else.

      With EXTREMELY careful positioning of EVERYTHING - you can create situations of a horde of Swordsmasters or Lions or Executioners fleeing from the 10 mongrels - because if the 5 dice frenzy goes off - the unit risks a forced charge onto something like a fighty character or a beastlord in a strong unit or a monster - and because the frenzybaiter decides the positioning - you open a can of gamey worms - such as force clipping with a force change of angle.

      How cool would you find it to face a 5 dice spell that means that you have to pursuit so only 6 models of a horde get to fight against a minolord and a gorthac - with no real advantage options through reforms - as you are stuck with 8 models worth between the Lord and the Monster that can not get into the fight?

      Will this be common? Perhaps not. But from my everyday experience of online gaming culture - I know that when a trick like this is legal and out there - it will be played.

      Cheers,
      Hermund Vigerust Endressòn Furu - Savage Sage of the Norse
      Faux-pro player and ETC vagabond.
      Enjoys the company of deluded nerds and women of unquestionably low morale.

      Do not fall to the folly of the best laid of plans - for the mind of man is fickle in the face of the dice gods.
      Give yer high fives where yer opponents dice have been blessed, and in equal give yer handshakes when dice fall in malicious ways.
    • sry for off top but...

      Wtf, you know that you can counterplay that? Dispell the spell. Or allow that and you have some options, dont charge these mongrels. You have to if you fail ld which isnt that easy with bsb and high ld. Block your own infantry with anything on the corner so you wont overrun. Or just block enemy deehstar minolord wombo combo if you dont want to fight it. Its not like if this spell comes in you are dead. With this spells comes great play but there is so much risk of fail or just get outplayed.

      Like you are coming with mongrels before unit of swordmasters and then you roll 1+1 on winds of magic, or enemy have dispel scroll, or you roll low on spell and get dispelled, or just got counterplayed like i mentioned above.
      Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
    • Ciara wrote:

      sry for off top but...

      Wtf, you know that you can counterplay that? Dispell the spell. Or allow that and you have some options, dont charge these mongrels. You have to if you fail ld which isnt that easy with bsb and high ld. Block your own infantry with anything on the corner so you wont overrun. Or just block enemy deehstar minolord wombo combo if you dont want to fight it. Its not like if this spell comes in you are dead. With this spells comes great play but there is so much risk of fail or just get outplayed.

      Like you are coming with mongrels before unit of swordmasters and then you roll 1+1 on winds of magic, or enemy have dispel scroll, or you roll low on spell and get dispelled, or just got counterplayed like i mentioned above.

      For overruns. Sure. Less common. For pursuits? Can be hard to dodge. Im not saying it is the new winning combo. Im saying it is foul play. It misuses: 5 dicing - congalines - force change of angles AND clipping.

      So I am not questioning the legality - I am questioning the phronesis.
      Hermund Vigerust Endressòn Furu - Savage Sage of the Norse
      Faux-pro player and ETC vagabond.
      Enjoys the company of deluded nerds and women of unquestionably low morale.

      Do not fall to the folly of the best laid of plans - for the mind of man is fickle in the face of the dice gods.
      Give yer high fives where yer opponents dice have been blessed, and in equal give yer handshakes when dice fall in malicious ways.
    • Herminard wrote:

      With EXTREMELY careful positioning of EVERYTHING - you can create situations of a horde of Swordsmasters or Lions or Executioners fleeing from the 10 mongrels - because if the 5 dice frenzy goes off - the unit risks a forced charge onto something like a fighty character or a beastlord in a strong unit or a monster - and because the frenzybaiter decides the positioning - you open a can of gamey worms - such as force clipping with a force change of angle.
      But ... is that not what you do with frenzy all the time ? I mean, you 'bait' the unit in to a overrun/pursue and then counter charge with as much as possible
      I can not see the big difference there

      Christoffer

      P. S and sorry for discussing in your thread Lagerlof
      Banned for posting memes - twice :D

      Herminard wrote:

      *nerfs are so 2016
    • Kpl.blutch wrote:

      Herminard wrote:

      With EXTREMELY careful positioning of EVERYTHING - you can create situations of a horde of Swordsmasters or Lions or Executioners fleeing from the 10 mongrels - because if the 5 dice frenzy goes off - the unit risks a forced charge onto something like a fighty character or a beastlord in a strong unit or a monster - and because the frenzybaiter decides the positioning - you open a can of gamey worms - such as force clipping with a force change of angle.
      But ... is that not what you do with frenzy all the time ? I mean, you 'bait' the unit in to a overrun/pursue and then counter charge with as much as possibleI can not see the big difference there

      Christoffer

      P. S and sorry for discussing in your thread Lagerlof
      It's ok.

      I am confused now @Herminard, I thought we were discussing the "overrun into 2 parallell units and hence getting to charge 2 units instead of one even thought a normal charge would only have allowed you to charge one unit"

      If you wanna force the enemy to clip you with the pursue, it's gonna take alot of correct positioning, since the charge move will try to maximize always.
      Rules Questions?

      ETC 2016 - Referee
      ETC 2017 Warm-up Herford - Head Judge
      ETC 2017 Salamanca - Head Judge
      ETC 2018 - Team Sweden - Ogre Khans
      ETC 2019 - Team Sweden
    • Lagerlof wrote:

      Kpl.blutch wrote:

      Herminard wrote:

      With EXTREMELY careful positioning of EVERYTHING - you can create situations of a horde of Swordsmasters or Lions or Executioners fleeing from the 10 mongrels - because if the 5 dice frenzy goes off - the unit risks a forced charge onto something like a fighty character or a beastlord in a strong unit or a monster - and because the frenzybaiter decides the positioning - you open a can of gamey worms - such as force clipping with a force change of angle.
      But ... is that not what you do with frenzy all the time ? I mean, you 'bait' the unit in to a overrun/pursue and then counter charge with as much as possibleI can not see the big difference there
      Christoffer

      P. S and sorry for discussing in your thread Lagerlof
      It's ok.
      I am confused now @Herminard, I thought we were discussing the "overrun into 2 parallell units and hence getting to charge 2 units instead of one even thought a normal charge would only have allowed you to charge one unit"

      If you wanna force the enemy to clip you with the pursue, it's gonna take alot of correct positioning, since the charge move will try to maximize always.

      Not if you can force overrun into 2 models. I just place them randomly and state that I have placed it perfectly. If he disagrees I open a calculus and show him that I can and that the rest is semantics.

      @Blutchie - Frenzy hooking is fine. Frenzy hooking into a clip with a force change of angle is not cool.
      Hermund Vigerust Endressòn Furu - Savage Sage of the Norse
      Faux-pro player and ETC vagabond.
      Enjoys the company of deluded nerds and women of unquestionably low morale.

      Do not fall to the folly of the best laid of plans - for the mind of man is fickle in the face of the dice gods.
      Give yer high fives where yer opponents dice have been blessed, and in equal give yer handshakes when dice fall in malicious ways.
    • SirMC2015 wrote:

      @Herminard- you can always choose to only charge 1 unit. There is 1" gap between units and if unable to close the door without hitting the other unit the opponent closes the door. You only charge 2 units if you want to charge both units.
      If you with the controlled pursue/overrun hit 2 enemy units "at the same time" you have to charge both. No choice. Even if that was not possible with a normal charge.
      Rules Questions?

      ETC 2016 - Referee
      ETC 2017 Warm-up Herford - Head Judge
      ETC 2017 Salamanca - Head Judge
      ETC 2018 - Team Sweden - Ogre Khans
      ETC 2019 - Team Sweden
    • SirMC2015 wrote:

      @Herminard- you can always choose to only charge 1 unit. There is 1" gap between units and if unable to close the door without hitting the other unit the opponent closes the door. You only charge 2 units if you want to charge both units.

      It is interesting to me that you do not consider that there exists a perfect position for both force clipping and force change of angle controlled by the position of an external obstacle (such as a friendly unit).

      SirMC2015 wrote:

      I wrote a whole thing and quoted rules and the deleted it on purpose.

      Could be an easy fix. If pursueing into a multiple units the player charging may choose to only charge 1 unit.

      That would indeed be better. I still dont see any rational premise on why a near accidentally allowed dual contact overrun would be the only legal situation for this excemptive.

      I can practically see 2 situations for application of this clausule - the former a little interesting and the latter an abusive pink elephant suckerpunch;

      a) the juicy risk - player A openly presents a statement of identical distance on overrun for player B to play or decline to take overrun (or consider the distance of the overrun obviously). This is fair play and can in a very limited case scenario be played. Most likely situation is Player A combining force to create a situation that is quite close to what Player B would consider a fair fight (irrespecive of wether it is or not), or creating a situation where Player B does not want the combined charge nor the combined fight - thus stopping Player B from commiting the situation or forcing Player B of spending additional rescources in order to force the situation.

      All fine. Rare - but fine.

      b) the suckerpunch - Player A have deployed 3 units in the deployment zone. One infront of 2 others. Then moved the units up in what may or may not be max distance. The situation one would risk here is a more experienced*/barsteward*/drunk*/waac* player B advocating that it is reasonable that player A deployed on a theoretical max distance in his deployment zone - then moved all 3 units a theoretical max at an assumed tangent angle (neither of these 3 are practically possible). Then player B argue that since it is likely that player A deployed max and moved max - he can dual overrun.

      Wether Player B simply asks this with hidden belligerent intent or states that Player A did so (or even probably so - so lets 4+ it) - is outside fair play. Even wether Player B gives this statement during charge declaration, in order to force a specific charge reaction - or during the actual completion of the overrun are positions beside the core crux.

      Now - why is the ol`hermit so insisting on such a silly little matter? Well - mostly because its one of the few remaining occurences of Worst Play.

      Why target it when it is so rare? I have only seen it once in T9A - when @mweax (a complete gentleman of the gaming boards - looking forward to offering you Le Rèvanche) did a dual overrun on me last week - and @babel posed the question to this thread. I think precisely because it is so rare - it should be removed.

      Now some may think that the sage have gone awry and sour on unexpected defeat - and that this is another hot air vent of another self inflated megalomaniac** of the intarwebz. Honest story told - the whole situation backfired badly on @mweax as @Omarcomin et al can prob confirm - Lòki protects those willing to roll dice on an altar wet with kitten litter and unicorn juice.

      Seeing the wide range implications of dual overrun I immediately assumed the whole concept far beside the rules set of T9A - but I was wrong.

      So to end this wall of text with a shameless self quote:

      I am not questioning the legality - I am questioning the phronesis.

      Now lets drink and roll dice.

      Skål nerds,

      Edit:

      shyte I forgot my annotative asterisks - there were some subtle tounge in cheek kidney punches involved:

      * as my opponent was french I noted no further insult as few are found beyond the the biting irony of a Frenchman playing war with tois.

      ** since former chairman F is venturing these forums - no situation should go amiss to reference megalomaniacs
      Hermund Vigerust Endressòn Furu - Savage Sage of the Norse
      Faux-pro player and ETC vagabond.
      Enjoys the company of deluded nerds and women of unquestionably low morale.

      Do not fall to the folly of the best laid of plans - for the mind of man is fickle in the face of the dice gods.
      Give yer high fives where yer opponents dice have been blessed, and in equal give yer handshakes when dice fall in malicious ways.

      The post was edited 2 times, last by Herminard ().

    • @Herminard:

      -For it to work on an overrun, you'd have to cast the frenzy spell before the unit was in combat (they have to charge that turn to be able to overrun).
      -They can restrain from charging.
      -They aren't in combat yet, so you don't know where their unit will be, and thus it will be hard to place two monsters to make sure it overruns into both. Especially when using a conga-line - they have lots of ways to maximize models in contact, and thus the position of their unit could vary a lot.
      -They could charge another unit instead. Even if it would automatically fail.
      -You could just position the two units to charge them after the overrun rather than give them the charge.
      -They can interpose a unit to block the overrun.
      -If they don't eliminate the unit, and pursue, now not only do you not know how unit centers are going to play out, but they can bias this against wherever you place two units by how they charge.

      We're talking a very niche strategy that arguably only works intentionally if you charge, cast frenzy on them, lose combat, force the pursue, and have expertly placed two units to make them charge into both (and the pursuit line is where you expected it).
      Just because I'm on the Legal Team doesn't mean I know anything about rules or background in development, and if/when I do, I won't be posting about it. All opinions and speculation are my own - treat them as such.

      Legal

      Playtester

      Chariot Command HQ