Orcs and Goblins divorce?

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  • Something like this is what I am hoping in the future will be explored in the Auxiliary Army Lists Compendium.

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  • This is a compendium that is planed for some point in the future that will introduce more specialised lists represent certain aspects of the background. Terracotta Army and Barrow Legion are rudimentary representatives of that we will be looking to expand on in the future. So such a compendium could include army lists and background support for all Goblin or all Orc armies, or an all Seeker force or Peasant rebellion from Aquitaine etc...

    But this compendium would make sure these lists are there for background rather than tournament purpose so their overall power would be weaker than the basic army list, but we would still strive that these thematic lists aim for the same power level. That should ensure the difficulty for balancing the game isn't increased, thematic armies can equally face each other, but playing a basic list would be a slight uphill challenge.

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  • Giladis wrote:

    This is a compendium that is planed for some point in the future that will introduce more specialised lists represent certain aspects of the background. Terracotta Army and Barrow Legion are rudimentary representatives of that we will be looking to expand on in the future. So such a compendium could include army lists and background support for all Goblin or all Orc armies, or an all Seeker force or Peasant rebellion from Aquitaine etc...

    But this compendium would make sure these lists are there for background rather than tournament purpose so their overall power would be weaker than the basic army list, but we would still strive that these thematic lists aim for the same power level. That should ensure the difficulty for balancing the game isn't increased, thematic armies can equally face each other, but playing a basic list would be a slight uphill challenge.
    Good idea imho. So I presume this would be background concentrated compendium on what is cooking in hombrews for now?
    Best regards
    Sklodo

    Retireing for unspecyfied period of time. Sometime I hate the world.
  • Sklodo wrote:

    Good idea imho. So I presume this would be background concentrated compendium on what is cooking in hombrews for now?
    Sort of on the same tangent, yes.

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  • Sklodo wrote:

    Was jack of all trades voted becouse we want to be army of multiple diferent faces? Or was it becouse we already were wits such a massive overload of units?
    I think that it was second version - votes based on what was currently available at time of poll.
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  • Giladis wrote:

    Something like this is what I am hoping in the future will be explored in the Auxiliary Army Lists Compendium.
    I was about to post that splitting Orcs and Goblins wouldn't be possible until their is some kind of ally/merc system.


    I'm not really a goblin guy, I have a full orc army army. Sometimes I throw in some goblin tool units. I bought the Monster Spider solely to add to my Orcs army.
    I wouldn't be happy if all of a sudden they were split and I couldn't take my monster spider with my orcs.
  • Peacemaker wrote:

    Giladis wrote:

    Something like this is what I am hoping in the future will be explored in the Auxiliary Army Lists Compendium.
    I was about to post that splitting Orcs and Goblins wouldn't be possible until their is some kind of ally/merc system.

    I'm not really a goblin guy, I have a full orc army army. Sometimes I throw in some goblin tool units. I bought the Monster Spider solely to add to my Orcs army.
    I wouldn't be happy if all of a sudden they were split and I couldn't take my monster spider with my orcs.
    I can see your point, it is however based on limits on you're collection. If you would have access to more goblin models and possibility to do cool things with them would it be still valid?
    Best regards
    Sklodo

    Retireing for unspecyfied period of time. Sometime I hate the world.
  • Giladis wrote:

    This is a compendium that is planed for some point in the future that will introduce more specialised lists represent certain aspects of the background. Terracotta Army and Barrow Legion are rudimentary representatives of that we will be looking to expand on in the future. So such a compendium could include army lists and background support for all Goblin or all Orc armies, or an all Seeker force or Peasant rebellion from Aquitaine etc...

    But this compendium would make sure these lists are there for background rather than tournament purpose so their overall power would be weaker than the basic army list, but we would still strive that these thematic lists aim for the same power level. That should ensure the difficulty for balancing the game isn't increased, thematic armies can equally face each other, but playing a basic list would be a slight uphill challenge.
    This is awesome - and perfectly well reasoned in regards to power level. If the alternative lists are meant to be a little weaker then TO's can always decide to allow specific lists without too much trouble
  • KeyserSoze wrote:

    It would be absolutely fine to do it in the homebrew section. But, imagine what will happen if we make it official.
    SA players will request skink army, DL players mono-god armies, ID players hobgoblin army, OK players scraplings army, and so on :P
    And why do you even think that it is bad idea? It's good to have various armybooks for each current armies. It makes game more diverse and fun. Isn't one of the goals of 9th age?
  • If we're talking on the tournament/competitive aspect, no, it's not. As I've explained before, there's no room for new armies, because every playstyle is covered by the existing ones.

    If we're talking about a secondary level, with fluffy/auxiliary armies, then yes. But even this is for future.

    Either way, the homebrew section is open for everyone to unleash their creativity(remember Oceanborn? ;) ).

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  • Sklodo wrote:

    Peacemaker wrote:

    Giladis wrote:

    Something like this is what I am hoping in the future will be explored in the Auxiliary Army Lists Compendium.
    I was about to post that splitting Orcs and Goblins wouldn't be possible until their is some kind of ally/merc system.
    I'm not really a goblin guy, I have a full orc army army. Sometimes I throw in some goblin tool units. I bought the Monster Spider solely to add to my Orcs army.
    I wouldn't be happy if all of a sudden they were split and I couldn't take my monster spider with my orcs.
    I can see your point, it is however based on limits on you're collection. If you would have access to more goblin models and possibility to do cool things with them would it be still valid?
    I have a vast collection of miniatures. Not many goblins though.
    As long as the split orc army has a monster the size of the monster spider so I can still use my aracnarok spider then I'm happy.

    ....my second big spider is the GW Maw Crusher with Megaboss, so I'm fine with proxies.


    So then this leads to the split armies being similar anyway since a few models would need to have a replacement.
    Which means the best solution is an ally/merc system were I could just pluck the Monster Spider from the goblin list and use it with my Orc army. And goblin players can pluck a unit of fighty bigger base orcs to use in their goblin army.


    And we are back to having the same armybook anyway. If they are separated then how similar will the Orcs be to the Beastherds army?
    Not all armies need to be streamlined, separated, made into their own book.
    Having these oddball armies that are different than the rest makes the game interesting.

    Orcs and Goblins can be separated. But do they need to be?

    And timeline wise, I see it happening AFTER version 2.0

    The post was edited 2 times, last by Peacemaker ().

  • NO No No No No No

    much nashing of teeth
    NO!!!

    OK Breath try not so smash things

    I understand on the surface why some one would suggest this , and if you are an all goblin player you would probably be ok . If you are an orc player and all your goblin units just grew a back bone and went on strike then you have a problem . You have no artillery , no monsters , minimal chaff . What you have is some average infantry , some below average medium/heavy cav , and average heavily armored infantry and some naked green infantry , and some chariots that's it . you can get a wavryn for your lord but that's it . that is not much of an army .
    If you split them into 2 armies what you would get is a complete and functional goblin army and half an orc army . In the original post it is suggested to keep some goblin units to balance things out so the orcs have all these things. Hmmmmmm so basically split the armies and in order to fix the problems splitting them creates merge them back together again .

    Seriously if you take a look at our book you will find that we are a Goblin based army with the option to take our bigger cousins along in the fight we are not 2 separate armies , at best we are 1 and a half armies . it is the name that creates the confusion Orc and Goblin it should be Goblins and Orcs or just green skinz .

    As to why an orc unit or more specificly an Iron Orc unit would fallow a goblin king , 2 simple reasons ,:
    1 : that little gobo is commanding a massive horde of gobos and monsters that are about to go pick a fight with someone you can join in and have a good fight or stay home and watch soap operas , and maybe have some tea and crumpets in the afternoon .
    As an orc or black orc what sounds better to you .

    2: That little gobo can kick their butt , and all green skinz fallow the strongest leader . Seriously take a tooled up Gobo king and role him against an Iron orc unit champion . you will have the answer as to why the rest of the iron orcs are going to fallow the guy that just killed their unit champ .

    Orc rank and file units are no match for a gobo king on a 1:1 fight so they are doing what they instinctively do , fallow the strongest . There is no fluff conflict with having orc units follow a Gobo general .

    The post was edited 1 time, last by ikken ().

  • Dude i think you have red my proposal very fast and without proper consideration. I fully understand you can hate the idea but you arguments are unconvincing. You seem to think only in terms of existing units without any possibility of change or modifications, which obviously would be a big part of this idea. Comments in red.

    ikken wrote:

    NO No No No No No

    much nashing of teeth
    NO!!!

    OK Breath try not so smash things
    very emotional but I can fully accept you dislike the idea for both aesthetic reasons and/or conservatic view of our army.


    I understand on the surface why some one would suggest this , and if you are an all goblin player you would probably be ok . If you are an orc player and all your goblin units just grew a back bone and went on strike then you have a problem . You have no artillery Not true even in my proposal there was one fully orc altilery, and we can make more if need be, no monsters ggi and gigant are monsters, not even counting wyvern, minimal chaff grotlings, possibly scrap wagon, boar riders all can serve this purpose . What you have is some average infantry , some below average medium/heavy cav , and average heavily armored infantry and some naked green infantry , and some chariots that's it all of witch would see some changes not to mention possible monstrous cavalry. you can get a wavryn for your lord but that's it . that is not much of an army . again read proposed list of units. I think There are armies that have less.
    If you split them into 2 armies what you would get is a complete and functional goblin army and half an orc army if done properly you would have to perfectly functional albeit vastly diferent armies.. In the original post it is suggested to keep some goblin units to balance things out so the orcs have all these things there is no such suggestion goblin slaves are added to orcs horde and orcs mercenaries purely for fluff factor. They are in fact optional. Ant those would be single units with very limited equip,ent options and no special toys. But I did not state that explicitly so I understand that this could be red diferently. . Hmmmmmm so basically split the armies and in order to fix the problems splitting them creates merge them back together again .

    Seriously if you take a look at our book you will find that we are a Goblin based army with the option to take our bigger cousins along in the fight we are not 2 separate armies , at best we are 1 and a half armies only if you count only number of current units. it is the name that creates the confusion Orc and Goblin it should be Goblins and Orcs or just green skinz .

    As to why an orc unit or more specificly an Iron Orc unit would fallow a goblin king , 2 simple reasons ,:
    1 : that little gobo is commanding a massive horde of gobos and monsters that are about to go pick a fight with someone you can join in and have a good fight or stay home and watch soap operas , and maybe have some tea and crumpets in the afternoon .
    As an orc or black orc what sounds better to you .
    You assume here that if iron orc smashed gobbo king over the head and assumed command battle would not happen for some reason? At worse orcs would start fighting goblins at best said iron orc would become warlord of his own and lead entire force into battle. For green skins win-win scenario really.


    2: That little gobo can kick their butt , and all green skinz fallow the strongest leader . Seriously take a tooled up Gobo king and role him against an Iron orc unit champion . you will have the answer as to why the rest of the iron orcs are going to fallow the guy that just killed their unit champ .
    unless there is like tooled up iron orc chieftain or gods forbid warlord. Than goblin king is basically gnashers food. And rules still permit to take goblin king as general with other orc characters as his de facto subordinates.


    Orc rank and file units are no match for a gobo king on a 1:1 fight so they are doing what they instinctively do , fallow the strongest . There is no fluff conflict with having orc units follow a Gobo general .
    there are several assumptions that do not have much sense from both logic and greenhude perspective

    1) You assume green skins will fight 1 on 1.
    2) You assume only r&f orcs will challenge goblin king and even than only one at a time. Controlling orcs would require intimidation factor 1,2 meter
    3) You assume r&f orcs would not try to subdue r&f goblins even if by some miracle they would accept goblin less than half their size as a leader.
    To sum up. While I can understand you dislike idea, yore arguments seem to assume this "divorce" would not include any changes in current units, just taking current book and splitting units between the two armies. That was not my intent, as evident by proposed unit lists.

    Best regards
    Sklodo
    Best regards
    Sklodo

    Retireing for unspecyfied period of time. Sometime I hate the world.
  • ikken wrote:

    NO No No No No No

    much nashing of teeth
    NO!!!
    What do you think of something like cults instead? That way you never end up with a half-formed army that can't function:


    Primal Waaargh Badlands Waaargh Mountain Waaargh Massive Waaargh
    General is a Forest Goblin or Feral OrcGeneral is a Common Orc or Common GoblinGeneral is a Cave GoblinGeneral is an Iron Orc
    + Close combat devastation
    + Forest Goblin Ambush Trix
    + Balanced combat/shooting
    + Flyers and cavalry
    + Shooting and Avoidance/Impact
    + Sneaky
    + Disciplined, at a cost
    + Elite Iron Orcs
    + Most Racial Variety
    - Lacks armour & artillery
    - Poor discipline,
    - unruly , frenzy
    - Poor discipline
    - Lacks toys
    - Inferior to Primal in combat
    - Limited combat options
    - Poor discipline
    - Elites/IO are expensive
    - Limited toys
    - Almost all racial special options are limited
  • Warboss_R'ok wrote:

    ikken wrote:

    NO No No No No No

    much nashing of teeth
    NO!!!
    What do you think of something like cults instead? That way you never end up with a half-formed army that can't function:

    Primal Waaargh Badlands Waaargh Mountain Waaargh Massive Waaargh
    General is a Forest Goblin or Feral OrcGeneral is a Common Orc or Common GoblinGeneral is a Cave GoblinGeneral is an Iron Orc
    + Close combat devastation+ Forest Goblin Ambush Trix
    + Balanced combat/shooting + Flyers and cavalry
    + Shooting and Avoidance/Impact+ Sneaky

    + Disciplined, at a cost + Elite Iron Orcs
    + Most Racial Variety

    - Lacks armour & artillery - Poor discipline,
    - unruly , frenzy

    - Poor discipline- Lacks toys
    - Inferior to Primal in combat

    - Limited combat options- Poor discipline
    - Elites/IO are expensive- Limited toys
    - Almost all racial special options are limited


    Is this not in many ways like basicly same idea but in one book and separating O&G into 4 instead of 2 armies?

    Best regards
    Sklodo
    Best regards
    Sklodo

    Retireing for unspecyfied period of time. Sometime I hate the world.
  • Warboss_R'ok wrote:

    ikken wrote:

    NO No No No No No

    much nashing of teeth
    NO!!!
    What do you think of something like cults instead? That way you never end up with a half-formed army that can't function:

    Primal Waaargh Badlands Waaargh Mountain Waaargh Massive Waaargh
    General is a Forest Goblin or Feral OrcGeneral is a Common Orc or Common GoblinGeneral is a Cave GoblinGeneral is an Iron Orc
    + Close combat devastation+ Forest Goblin Ambush Trix
    + Balanced combat/shooting + Flyers and cavalry
    + Shooting and Avoidance/Impact+ Sneaky

    + Disciplined, at a cost + Elite Iron Orcs
    + Most Racial Variety

    - Lacks armour & artillery - Poor discipline,
    - unruly , frenzy

    - Poor discipline- Lacks toys
    - Inferior to Primal in combat

    - Limited combat options- Poor discipline
    - Elites/IO are expensive- Limited toys
    - Almost all racial special options are limited


    I would say that adding optional cult rules to the army is a much better solution to the perceived problem than splitting the army , it is very 40k orks . 40k in general seems to favor this approach .
  • Sklodo wrote:

    Is this not in many ways like basicly same idea but in one book and separating O&G into 4 instead of 2 armies?
    It's not exactly a separation, because the different Waaarghs (I suppose you could say they are like formations in 40K) share some units. Just about every unit will be in at least two different Waaarghs.

    ikken wrote:

    optional cult rules
    Well the idea here is these would not be optional, you would have to take one of them. But one of them would be designed to be the "Vanilla version" - very diverse, but therefore necessarily missing the most OP an exotic options from all races.

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Warboss_R'ok ().

  • First of all I have to tell that you always have great and very original ideas and I like most of them, but I am afraid I disagree on that one.

    I played full goblin and full orc list, but when I most enjoy playing O&G is when I am playing a mixt list and I am playing O&G mainly for all the options that we have.

    I know that we can create new rules and different options if we split the army in two, but I am sure, that at the end of the day this will end up limitating our choices and unit options and the worse think, everything will need to be balanced again and it definitely will make a lot of O&G players more frustrated and unhappy that they actually are.

    About the Waaargh! I agree that it needs to be improved, I would be happy to have different Waaargh options, but I don´t think it should affect at our unit options or restrict our army.

    I think most of us will agree that O&G are not OP at the moment, so why not focus in improving synergies, Waaargh!, Born to fight, unruly, certain units and characters in order to make them more playable, rather than making things more complicated, causing new balance problems and restricting our army?

    Please don´t take me wrong or feel attacked about that, this is just my opinion. I understand your point of view and I would be happy to see that as an option in a compendium for fun games, but not as an imposition as our official army.

    Best regards,

    Porko