Orcs and Goblins divorce?

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  • Shlagrabak wrote:

    seems to me that we are still far from the days of 8th edition
    Arguably, goblins were a lot better in 8th edition than they are now.

    Double doom diver, double rock lobber and 100 goblins with the spider banner for 100 poisoned shots per turn, and a few trolls and big bosses to mop up the survivors. That was a grand tournament-winning list.

    Shlagrabak wrote:

    It doesn't make sense to fear bad consequences
    Well when you see a pattern....


    The thing is, I am actually more worried about the direction of goblins than the power level. Warcry, close combat hereditary spell, loss of shooting and decreasing book complexity all point in one direction: in order to fit orcs and goblins into one book, orcs and goblins will become more similar.
  • Shlagrabak wrote:

    We should rather be asking for rationale where we don't understand decisions, and identify what makes the balance difficult to get for all parts of the book. OnG ACS, could you shed light as to what happened to goblin shooting, or inquire above if you don't know?

    Only if you can prove that it's intrinsic to the book that orcs and goblins cannot be balanced at the same time should we go down that road, in my opinion. I do not think that we have such evidence. Rather, I note that since 1.0 we have barely been getting as many balance updates than core rules and redesign updates. How can we reach balance if we keep tossing the core rules around?
    Totally agree on this one. It is obvious that the core rules has been the main focus, and properly so, but that is also the problem at the same time. From this perspective it is as if our OnG is just hanging along and awaiting that fatefull day of stable core rules when we finally can focus on army balance proper.
    But what to do in the mean time? Just keep playing our internally imbalanced army and be happy? That only works for so long I'm afraid. A hot fix every now and then gives us hope that some focus is being directed our way but only to discover that the true intent is still on the core rules.

    There has to be some future plan for the army in order to keep the community playing. By all means, and I do mean it, try things along the way but we need to know what the general goal is. I think this is why we keep having this debate about OnG. From t9a's stand point, as a gaming system, are orcs supposed to be the focus point of the army? Are goblins to be as viable an option or only play the support? What are the reasons for our infighting that restricts our synergies? Do we really need the infighting or are just running with the legacy? And so on. I'm not sure anyone knows this at this point which is a HUGE problem!

    We just get new rules and all we, as a community, can do is infer from that. Even if we do progress, and we certainly have without doubt, the recent pendulum effect speaks of unceartanty and unfocus...
    A smart gobbo convinces others to die for him
  • Shlagrabak wrote:

    It doesn't make sense to fear bad consequences based on unknown reasons. If you don't know the only constructive states are either to be hopeful or expectation-less.
    We should rather be asking for rationale where we don't understand decisions, and identify what makes the balance difficult to get for all parts of the book. OnG ACS, could you shed light as to what happened to goblin shooting, or inquire above if you don't know?

    Only if you can prove that it's intrinsic to the book that orcs and goblins cannot be balanced at the same time should we go down that road, in my opinion. I do not think that we have such evidence. Rather, I note that since 1.0 we have barely been getting as many balance updates than core rules and redesign updates. How can we reach balance if we keep tossing the core rules around? Especially given that balance seems to be an empirical process. One iteration of rebalancing does not seem to be enough, in my perception. On the other hand, fine tuning balance is pointless until we finish stabilizing the core rules, which is the priority right now. Let's do things in the right order.
    In the meantime, we can still field our armies, and it seems to me that we are still far from the days of 8th edition. I think we regularly need to take a step back and realize the proportions of the problem.
    I think that the problem isn't just balance though, it is also about people wanting different irreconcilable things - as I think I mentioned elsewhere.

    Some want orcs to be more elite and to have a real contrast with goblins. Others want the army to focus on being a horde all the way and want more bodies.

    Some want more randomness, some want less.

    Even at the fundamental level of ASAW people want different things. How much emphasis on mobility? How much on special deployment? How much on toughness? How do we reconcile these?

    How important should characters be? How important monsters?

    Now these disputes happen in all armies but they seem to run especially deep here. The core issues seem to be that there are two very different styles and both cannot be forced into the foreground simultaneously. Attempting to accommodate both will result in a book with strengths in too many areas (although to be fair this has not stopped all books in the current release).
  • I think it's indeed probably difficult to establish a plan given the lack of consensus in the community. Wherever ASAW heads, some part of the community will be dissatisfied. So far, we haven't been able to form a majority as to what the community wants, which makes our feedback noisy and difficult to use. There are not just two factions ("orc supporters VS goblin supporters"), but instead many visions as to what the fundamentals should be. Some view the main characteristic of goblins to be Shooting, others randomness, others just view them as cannon fodder, others perhaps favour the sneak attack aspect via special deployment or movement, as both posts above say. If there was only two camps, things would be easy !
    I think we have to be aware that we will likely not get what we personally favour, at least in details. That's ok though, of we acknowledge that there are anyway more than one way to make it work.
    I would personally love to have goblins oriented towards debuffing and laying traps, but that is a wishlist about details and execution. As long as the general theme is respected (something to emphasize the sneakiness), I will be open minded and try whatever direction is chosen. Who knows? I might like it better in the end. Worse result would be that we are too afraid to upset anybody and end up with a conservative status quo that satisfies nobody. And the more emotionally negative we are, the more incentive there is to go this way.
    Now, on the short term I think we should focus on trying out new lists, getting familiar with the new 2.0 rules, reporting what works and what doesn't.
    Ultimately, there is no secret, what makes the project progress is data from the community, adequate staffing and motivation ...
  • Shlagrabak wrote:

    Some view the main characteristic of goblins to be Shooting, others randomness, others just view them as cannon fodder, others perhaps favour the sneak attack aspect via special deployment or movement, as both posts above say.
    Two things - there are common things like unable to win 'fair' fight and what you described as main characteristic could be description of these few available playstyles (common goblin - shooting list supported by cannon fodder units to slow enemies, cave goblin sneak attack army - ambush/vanguard/scout, forest goblin - debuff/trap/poison?).
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