Celestial Son (Hombrew army book)

    This site uses cookies. By continuing to browse this site, you are agreeing to our Cookie Policy.

    The latest issue of the 9th Scroll is here! You can read all about it in the news.

    Our beta phase is finally over. Download The Ninth Age: Fantasy Battles, 2nd Edition now!

    • WastelandWarrior wrote:

      Satire?! If not I'm genuinely interested how you'd even start to go about such a thing, the amount of variables boggles my tiny mind!!
      It's not too hard if you throw out the movement phase, i.e. you're just interested in how much damage something does and how much it takes.
    • Warboss_R'ok wrote:

      WastelandWarrior wrote:

      Satire?! If not I'm genuinely interested how you'd even start to go about such a thing, the amount of variables boggles my tiny mind!!
      It's not too hard if you throw out the movement phase, i.e. you're just interested in how much damage something does and how much it takes.
      ah right, not too accurate then either as that is by far the most influential phase!
      Take a look at my painted army so far. Feel free to share a pic of yours!

      Pics of my ever expanding warriors army

      WastelandWarrior Painting League 2018

      WastelandWarrior Painting League 2019
    • WastelandWarrior wrote:

      not too accurate then
      In plenty of cases there is imbalance that has very little to do with what happens in the movement phase.

      Actually, even though the movement phase is the most skilled phase in the game, carries the most state and has the most complex decisions, there is very little variation in what a unit can do in the movement phase. The vast majority of units that we have balance problems with just move the same way was every other unit, typically with the ~same movement value as ~50-100 other units.
    • Warboss_R'ok wrote:

      WastelandWarrior wrote:

      not too accurate then
      In plenty of cases there is imbalance that has very little to do with what happens in the movement phase.
      Actually, even though the movement phase is the most skilled phase in the game, carries the most state and has the most complex decisions, there is very little variation in what a unit can do in the movement phase. The vast majority of units that we have balance problems with just move the same way was every other unit, typically with the ~same movement value as ~50-100 other units.
      what about synergies? army compositions? number of units available to said armies? I dont doubt you could make a tool for "in a vacuum, units in combat with each other" balancing but the other stuff is too important for that to mean much.

      Anyway, not to derail this thread too much I have written a celestial sons army list!!

      Celestial Sons – 4500pts
      Characters – 1376pts
      Selector (General), Halberd, Binding Scroll – 335pts
      Selector, Halberd – 335pts
      4 Chosen Cohort, BSB, Halberds – 761pts
      Core – 926pts
      6 Descendants – 406pts
      3 Well Born – 260pts
      3 Well Born – 260pts
      Special – 1310pts
      5 Agile Claw whelps – 165pts
      5 Agile Claw whelps – 165pts
      3 Agile Claw Riders – 490pts
      3 Agile Claw Riders – 490pts
      Celestial Cohort – 888pts
      6 Sentinels – 418pts
      First Purger – 470pts
      Take a look at my painted army so far. Feel free to share a pic of yours!

      Pics of my ever expanding warriors army

      WastelandWarrior Painting League 2018

      WastelandWarrior Painting League 2019
    • WastelandWarrior wrote:

      what about synergies? army compositions? number of units available to said armies? I dont doubt you could make a tool for "in a vacuum, units in combat with each other" balancing but the other stuff is too important for that to mean much.
      So, knowing what beats what in a vacuum is both useful and fast to evaluate. Those are extremely important advantages, especially in the context of homebrew or of trying to explore the space of designs.

      Is there anything in the Celestial Sons army book that's a bit broken/OP? Is there anything that really underperforms? It would be nice to have a button one could press that would give an near-instant answer to that question.

      Synergies and composition are almost always not to do with movement. Usually it's something like a conditional stat bonus where you can make an educated guess about the range of probabilities of it occurring.

      Balance via human experts and playtesting is sloooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooow. This counts for something. Also, playtesting can only test one possible setting for all designs. You can't independently test 1000 independent redesigns. The typical result of this is that problems take a long time to fix.

      Automated testing will never replace experts and playtests (unless someone can program the full game and AI to use it, but that's a huge challenge). But it's a tool that would be extremely useful to have.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Warboss_R'ok ().

    • I Know some folks don't like it but I stand by the balancing method of top players using gut feeling. After all most units are very similar in function to other units of their type with only some outlier special rules to differentiate them from each other, mostly.

      I dont rate tourney performance as much of a balance indicator. Who knows who played against only weak / strong players, who was drunk, who rolled out the box or abysmally?

      If you do come up with the balancebot9000 then I'd be interested to see if it's conclusions match my gut feeling!

      Warboss_R'ok wrote:

      Is there anything in the Celestial Sons army book that's a bit broken/OP?
      My gut says.... YES!! most of it!!
      Take a look at my painted army so far. Feel free to share a pic of yours!

      Pics of my ever expanding warriors army

      WastelandWarrior Painting League 2018

      WastelandWarrior Painting League 2019
    • WastelandWarrior wrote:

      Warboss_R'ok wrote:

      WastelandWarrior wrote:

      not too accurate then
      In plenty of cases there is imbalance that has very little to do with what happens in the movement phase.Actually, even though the movement phase is the most skilled phase in the game, carries the most state and has the most complex decisions, there is very little variation in what a unit can do in the movement phase. The vast majority of units that we have balance problems with just move the same way was every other unit, typically with the ~same movement value as ~50-100 other units.
      what about synergies? army compositions? number of units available to said armies? I dont doubt you could make a tool for "in a vacuum, units in combat with each other" balancing but the other stuff is too important for that to mean much.
      Anyway, not to derail this thread too much I have written a celestial sons army list!!

      Celestial Sons – 4500pts
      Characters – 1376pts
      Selector (General), Halberd, Binding Scroll – 335pts
      Selector, Halberd – 335pts
      4 Chosen Cohort, BSB, Halberds – 761pts
      Core – 926pts
      6 Descendants – 406pts
      3 Well Born – 260pts
      3 Well Born – 260pts
      Special – 1310pts
      5 Agile Claw whelps – 165pts
      5 Agile Claw whelps – 165pts
      3 Agile Claw Riders – 490pts
      3 Agile Claw Riders – 490pts
      Celestial Cohort – 888pts
      6 Sentinels – 418pts
      First Purger – 470pts
      That's a really interesting list, actually Agile claw Riders are the most important unit, as I think, if we talk about movility and playability.
      I hope it isn't an OP unit, when I test it they were really funny to play, but I think they haven't punch enough to be more expensive, What do you think about that?
    • blocsanchez wrote:

      WastelandWarrior wrote:

      Warboss_R'ok wrote:

      WastelandWarrior wrote:

      not too accurate then
      In plenty of cases there is imbalance that has very little to do with what happens in the movement phase.Actually, even though the movement phase is the most skilled phase in the game, carries the most state and has the most complex decisions, there is very little variation in what a unit can do in the movement phase. The vast majority of units that we have balance problems with just move the same way was every other unit, typically with the ~same movement value as ~50-100 other units.
      what about synergies? army compositions? number of units available to said armies? I dont doubt you could make a tool for "in a vacuum, units in combat with each other" balancing but the other stuff is too important for that to mean much.Anyway, not to derail this thread too much I have written a celestial sons army list!!

      Celestial Sons – 4500pts
      Characters – 1376pts
      Selector (General), Halberd, Binding Scroll – 335pts
      Selector, Halberd – 335pts
      4 Chosen Cohort, BSB, Halberds – 761pts
      Core – 926pts
      6 Descendants – 406pts
      3 Well Born – 260pts
      3 Well Born – 260pts
      Special – 1310pts
      5 Agile Claw whelps – 165pts
      5 Agile Claw whelps – 165pts
      3 Agile Claw Riders – 490pts
      3 Agile Claw Riders – 490pts
      Celestial Cohort – 888pts
      6 Sentinels – 418pts
      First Purger – 470pts
      That's a really interesting list, actually Agile claw Riders are the most important unit, as I think, if we talk about movility and playability.I hope it isn't an OP unit, when I test it they were really funny to play, but I think they haven't punch enough to be more expensive, What do you think about that?
      I think that they are a bit too strong for the point cost, they have decent shooting, are very maneuverable and nearly have the same punch as wdg chosen knights. I would suggest either toning down their combat prowess a bit or upping the cost a bit. These are just my gut feelings though. The lack of magic and inability to dispel may make up for some price discounts. If i were to pick one unit that was op it would be the first purger, its damage bubble is far too big and powerful. Even without its special rules id consider it too cheap. Im not trying to knock you though the book looks really fun and has good ideas
      Take a look at my painted army so far. Feel free to share a pic of yours!

      Pics of my ever expanding warriors army

      WastelandWarrior Painting League 2018

      WastelandWarrior Painting League 2019
    • Warboss_R'ok wrote:

      WastelandWarrior wrote:

      Satire?! If not I'm genuinely interested how you'd even start to go about such a thing, the amount of variables boggles my tiny mind!!
      It's not too hard if you throw out the movement phase, i.e. you're just interested in how much damage something does and how much it takes.
      In a distant past, I made an Excel spreadsheet that automatically calculated the outcome of combat and the probabilities for taking number of wounds, breaking from combat, etc.

      There were some very complex « If / Then » sequences in it ^^

      That was for v7 though, and then i don't know how, when I open it today, it just shows « Error » everywhere ;(

      However, it's not very difficult to do a spreadsheet that gives the average amount of damage expected from any combat.
      GHAÂAÂAÂARN ! — The Black Goat of the Woods with a Thousand Young
      First T9A player in West Africa
    • JJR wrote:

      Hi,
      I just wanted zu ask if this Army book is still in development or just OP as some say?
      Maybe I have to purchase the starter boxes for a present so I could use them in T9A too instead age of Sigmar . . .

      Thank you :)

      Gesendet von meinem SM-G930F mit Tapatalk
      This book is still homebrew, so using it in a tournament is most likely prohibited. Playing it in a friendly game is of course OK as long as your opponent is fine with it.