All SA need is love - unofficial SA project

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    • All SA need is love - unofficial SA project

      Dear SA fellas,

      a lot of suggestions, ideas and oppinions were expressed by SA community. RT, ACS and ABC collected and hopefully will further collect the information and will working with it. Nevertheless i was very motivated to picked up my favorites suggestions from all over the different threads expressed by several community members and worked on a "hombrewed" SA-AB draft for v2.0. Some of you already mentioned/ comment things i was thinking about - thank you for that.
      I also notice that there are a lot of different views how the SA army should be like. Here i want to present my personally view on the SA army. This view is more or less fluffbased, so i need some more advise/ tipps from you for technical issues (pointcost, autoincludes/autoexcludes, OP units, and so on..). But even more important is your oppinion :)
      The Army poll is very hard to use as guideline for changes, remember:

      Strenght:
      Compact (Grinding)
      Defense (Toughness)- what does it exactly mean???
      Range (small arms in fire)

      Weaknesses:
      Range (heavy arms fire)
      Defense (Avoiding)- no distraction, hard target,..????
      Defense (Strenght in numbers)

      I was more focussing on the prefered playstyles:
      Monster Mash
      Inantry based
      Guerillas

      edit [see latest post]

      This draft is still based on the actuall SA-book, i just shuffled some things around and picked up my favorites of the expressed suggestions (most of them from you :) ). What i am missing in the actuall book are synergies. Beside the fluff, this was the most motivating aspect of this draft.

      edit [see latest post]


      new version for FAB (see latest post):

      dropbox.com/s/s7hytjd9y4jqn79/SA%20Homebrew%202019.pdf?dl=0

      new version with marked changes (see latest post)

      dropbox.com/s/ypcuapzti7g1ks1/…nges%20in%20blue.pdf?dl=0

      The post was edited 12 times, last by sonny1086 ().

    • PrinceCharming wrote:

      U removed the toxic vreath from stygi?;0


      No go!
      Love what u did to the salamanders /spearbacks.
      should go hand in hand. Wanted to put the toxix breath weapon (one of the most usefull things in the book) from stygiosaur to dimetrodon. The idea was to give Stygiosaur one single purpose as support monster. Atm Stygiosaur is also another small Cowboy with TL for firebattery cuatl. And i liked the old Predatory Roar version more, in wich the enemy unit wet their pants and had to reroll successful to rolls.

      PrinceCharming wrote:

      I think the 'titanosaurus' or what his bame was the big guy. Its not needed to have something like that in the game. Id prefer a water dweller like monster instead
      yeah, maybe its too much ;) its just fluffy
    • This is honestly so difficult to gauge because of the weird new stat names + layout. So it's a little hard to fully grasp what's going on for me xD

      There's a lot of things here that I love (Core 25%, no Jade Staff, some of the names of Magic Items, the Thyroscutus' changes, Cuatl Disciplines) and a lot which I don't (new Monster, Weapon Beasts' changes, no new infantry units, effects of some Magic Items), but it certainly 'feels' more Saurian / Lizardman / Iguan than the current armybook/PDF does right now.

      Regardless, very well done, this is really cool. :)
    • Some great work here, skink chiefs seem spot on as do items and infantry.

      BS values seen all over the place, skink hunters and camos picked up an extra point of bs while Salamanders would only hit on 6s(prefer your version of damage for them though). The big Dino is utterly broken, imagine being a skaven player and having that tapdance through your army for 5 turns.

      This with some refinements I'd hope is close to our 2.0 book.
    • 2Cats1Tuna wrote:

      no new infantry units
      there are basicly two ways to go imo. On the one way u create slightly different saurian warriors units (a lot of cool suggestions are foating around) or you create some variation options with a totem like rule. I took the second way. Skinks has already both in this draft, totems and variation options :)

      Ipower wrote:

      The big Dino is utterly broken, imagine being a skaven player and having that tapdance through your army for 5 turns.
      ok ok i went to far with this guy, despite the for 940 point costs :) Maybe sth similar? The new start up companies would propably love to see completely new models ;)
    • Why no more Skink bows ?
      Why Skink Braves reduced to 30 ?
      Why remove toxic Breath from Stygio ? Very handy in a challange at the moment .
      Why not just get rid of stupidity from Raptors ?
      Skink Skirmishers with poisoned shooting in Core - Forget it , will never happen
      Vets on Baby Carnys with 1+ AS - Forget it , Will never happen
      The big Fella = Good Laugh , Forget it , Will never happen,

      Could go on !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

      Poison on 4+ for example .
    • I like it. Only things I don't like are:
      ambushing raptors as JG which is reduced to 25%, at 30% would be perfect,
      removal of totems (M5 SW are the only reason I don't fill most of my core with skinks),
      removal of toxic breath from stygio,
      the nerf on Taurosaur (no more big bow option), expecially the engine at the same price with less options,
      not a big fan of evocation, I would see pyromancy as more fitting for the Cuatl.
      The big dino is not gonna happen, but I would love it.
    • Ipower wrote:

      BS values seen all over the place, skink hunters and camos picked up an extra point of bs while Salamanders would only hit on 6s(prefer your version of damage for them though).
      Blowpipes should be (4+), poisoned javelins (3+) for hunters and (4+) for core skinks right? I missed that multishoot wont be an option anymore. Salamanders both with option for Q2F on (4+) seems fine.

      wombat wrote:

      Why no more Skink bows ?
      I am not a fan of bow Skinks, because i prefere unique armies and units. Dont want to play goblins :). Kept it simple, only two range weapons Blowpipes and Poisoned Javelines. Indogenous people of south america used bows aswell, but i dont know if maya / aztek used bows. Nevertheless the first reason overweights the second for me.

      wombat wrote:

      Why Skink Braves reduced to 30 ?
      was afraid to make an autoinclude cheap super tarpit unit with the swarm option. This is why i need your advices. I raised to maximum to 35 again.

      wombat wrote:

      Why remove toxic Breath from Stygio ? Very handy in a challange at the moment .
      Fluff reasons...you are absoltely right, but for me breath weapons belongs to dragons not to dinosaurs. But everyone as his own view of course.

      wombat wrote:

      Why not just get rid of stupidity from Raptors ?
      I splitted the raptors (more like jurrassic park style :) ). On the one hand a fast and intelligent one and on the other hand a the numbskull one, who crush his head against everything. The second one should be stupid, its more fluffy and enables a alpha special rule for the alpha.

      wombat wrote:

      Skink Skirmishers with poisoned shooting in Core - Forget it , will never happen
      why? realy why? is this the stone-carved holy mantra of the 8th edition? It could enables a possibility to play a realy guerilla based SA army, which isnt OP. The restrictions and weaknesses would make core poison skirmisher reasonable to me. Some arguments pro and contra would be nice.

      wombat wrote:

      Vets on Baby Carnys with 1+ AS - Forget it , Will never happen
      as long as the insane chariot characters are fielded (even cheaper) i see no big problem to that. And you couldnt get 1+ AS and S7 that easy.

      wombat wrote:

      The big Fella = Good Laugh , Forget it , Will never happen,
      Just wanted to check your attention :) titanosaur is extincted now ;(


      MxM wrote:

      ambushing raptors as JG which is reduced to 25%, at 30% would be perfect,
      ambushing middle heavy cavalry AND massive amounts of skirmishing poison skinks seems realy nasty to me. I am not sure if this would be OP.

      MxM wrote:

      removal of totems (M5 SW are the only reason I don't fill most of my core with skinks),
      The army special rule Manifestation of Deity would allow you to get M5 on one Block or an aura within 9". Mass M5 10 Saurus units are odd.

      MxM wrote:

      the nerf on Taurosaur (no more big bow option), expecially the engine at the same price with less options,
      less "heavy arms fire" and more simplicity ;) Regarding the engine, i think 80% of the times the wardsave is used.

      MxM wrote:

      not a big fan of evocation, I would see pyromancy as more fitting for the Cuatl.
      again everybody has his own Fluff view ;)


      Change log:

      Blowpipes hit on (4+)
      change Incarante of the Cuatl Conclave (magical item)
      change Serpent Staff (magical item)
      change poison of the purple Tarantula (magical item)
      changing Wafting totem of the thirteen skies (magical item)
      Babycarnosaur + 20/40 pts
      Skink Braves 15-35 models
      Pteradons Poisoned Javelins on (3+)
      no titanosaur

      dropbox.com/s/1xmkkia2lyyfw4z/…%20extra%20fluff.pdf?dl=0

      further feedback is welcome :)

      The post was edited 4 times, last by sonny1086 ().

    • Probably too finicky for the main rules but how about raptors lose stupidity if there are 5 or more in a unit? Representative of the pack hunting together. Boosts the unit without touching the solo characters.

      Also Sonny, the Salamander will almost certainly take move and long range penalty meaning he hits on 6s before cover/skirmishing/hard target. Considering in optimal play you will get Max 3/4 shots per game with this unit and more likely 1 or 2 they need to be way more accurate. Would make them (2+) so they would nominally hit on 4s most of the time. Now the quick to fire option goes from must take if you want to do anything to a nice bonus for reliability but not auto pick.
    • sonny1086 wrote:

      I am not a fan of bow Skinks, because i prefere unique armies and units. Dont want to play goblins :). Kept it simple, only two range weapons Blowpipes and Poisoned Javelines. Indogenous people of south america used bows aswell, but i dont know if maya / aztek used bows. Nevertheless the first reason overweights the second for me.
      I am. Please explain how you don't want to play Gobbo's when you give skinks spears. not consistant in my view.

      sonny1086 wrote:

      why? realy why? is this the stone-carved holy mantra of the 8th edition? It could enables a possibility to play a realy guerilla based SA army, which isnt OP. The restrictions and weaknesses would make core poison skirmisher reasonable to me. Some arguments pro and contra would be nice.
      The reason Skink Skirmishers with Poison javelins where removed was that they were seen to be OP and not fun to play against therefore you are asking for something that will never happen..
      My views on Skinks are well Known. With a proposed increase of core to 25% - something I have suggested myself - with limits on skinks Braves you will be forcing SA players into using either Skink/Caiman blocks or Saurus. This is totally wrong. SA Players should have a choice of what they use, not be forced into any type of army build. Honestly feel that you are heading totally down the wrong path here. I also cannot understand why you even want reduce Skink Braves from their present limit of 40.
      I strongly suggest you read my thread in SA Tactics - Army build - SA New Army Book for 2.0 my unoffical view about my views on how Skinks should be handled going forward.

      sonny1086 wrote:

      ambushing middle heavy cavalry AND massive amounts of skirmishing poison skinks seems realy nasty to me. I am not sure if this would be OP.
      In the thread i mentioned above. I propose that Snake Swarms are the best bet for Ambush. From a ' historical view' and 9th Age items Altar of the snake god, Plaque etc there is still a relationship between skinks and Snakes. I can understand Skink Hunters etc setting a trap of Snakes or drawing in enemy troops into area heavily infested with them. IE causing casulties prior to combat which I feel could be justified.

      Ipower wrote:

      Probably too finicky for the main rules but how about raptors lose stupidity if there are 5 or more in a unit? Representative of the pack hunting together. Boosts the unit without touching the solo characters.
      Fully agree with this.


      Re thyro. I might be outnumbered on this but I do not feel that he needs any changes. He is best used as a buff wagon for Skink Hordes. Fix the Skinks and the Thyro will return. At 280 pts with Snake Altar he bears a very similar role comparison with the EofS buff Wagons and in my view is just as good if not better.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by wombat ().

    • Ipower wrote:

      Also Sonny, the Salamander will almost certainly take move and long range penalty meaning he hits on 6s before cover/skirmishing/hard target. Considering in optimal play you will get Max 3/4 shots per game with this unit and more likely 1 or 2 they need to be way more accurate. Would make them (2+) so they would nominally hit on 4s most of the time. Now the quick to fire option goes from must take if you want to do anything to a nice bonus for reliability but not auto pick.
      Tried too keep the same powerlevel. So Spinoscutus have already Q2F and (4+) shooting (BF 4 and Multishoot modifier). Maybe dimetrodon need Q2F aswell, but then i have to adjust the options ;)

      wombat wrote:

      I am. Please explain how you don't want to play Gobbo's when you give skinks spears. not consistant in my view.
      Maybe you are right, but i dont see a 40+ skink bow unit belong to Monster Mash, Combat Block or Guerille playstyle army.

      wombat wrote:

      The reason Skink Skirmishers with Poison javelins where removed was that they were seen to be OP and not fun to play against therefore you are asking for something that will never happen.
      Yes they WERE OP, but i try to provide a version in which they are not OP. Again I know the arguments and work with massiv restrictions. And with the scoring system they got another weakness. I am not a guerilla player, but the people want to play this (see poll). ATM the only realy "guerilla" SA army is spam of M5 SW. In my draft you would be able to fill your core with only skirmishers (i think they are way less effective as Hunters) and fillup the army with Caimans, Raptors, Monsters...i dont know this is more Guerilla, but it is a try.

      wombat wrote:

      My views on Skinks are well Known. With a proposed increase of core to 25% - something I have suggested myself - with limits on skinks Braves you will be forcing SA players into using either Skink/Caiman blocks or Saurus. This is totally wrong. SA Players should have a choice of what they use, not be forced into any type of army build.
      I totaly agree here, see above.

      wombat wrote:

      I also cannot understand why you even want reduce Skink Braves from their present limit of 40.
      With the option for caimans and swarms u have the option of 12 (or 16) additional "R&F-skinks" this goes in direction of hordes and strenghth in numbers playtysle. I think SA should go in another direction.

      wombat wrote:

      I strongly suggest you read my thread in SA Tactics
      I did ;)

      wombat wrote:

      I might be outnumbered on this but I do not feel that he needs any changes.
      Nope, the most SA players think Stygiosaur doesnt need changes (me included) in a tactical view. But i have the self-consistent army view with fluff, see previous comments.
    • If nobody took a scarvet on foot, but 10 from 16 took scarvet on raptor, then i suggest 2 solutions:

      1. Decrease price of scarvet himself and increase price for raptor.
      2. Scarvet on foot should provide his saurian unit one of the 3 bonus (choose 1 from 3 in roster):
      - vanguard
      - ambush
      - swiftstride

      Then heroes will be tactical leader instead been SuperMan, who can beat little army by himself. I think, decrease solo power of hero and increase his tactical role - is the proper way for T9A.
    • deeyo wrote:

      Excerpts, pictures ...
      no more pictures, they destroy fantasy ;)


      Shinymetallass wrote:

      If nobody took a scarvet on foot, but 10 from 16 took scarvet on raptor, then i suggest 2 solutions:

      1. Decrease price of scarvet himself and increase price for raptor.
      2. Scarvet on foot should provide his saurian unit one of the 3 bonus (choose 1 from 3 in roster):
      - vanguard
      - ambush
      - swiftstride

      Then heroes will be tactical leader instead been SuperMan, who can beat little army by himself. I think, decrease solo power of hero and increase his tactical role - is the proper way for T9A.
      i tried to keep the tactical aspects to the units themselves and coupled the unit buffs on hereos. But of course your suggestions are another possible way to go ;)
    • wombat wrote:

      Shinymetallass wrote:

      If nobody took a scarvet on foot, but 10 from 16 took scarvet on raptor, then i suggest 2 solutions:
      3rd Option, Limit Raptor mounts to 0 - 2 per army, in line with other army books.
      Cowboy spam is already very uncommon. To be honest they give more variety to the competitive SA lists.
      IIRC there was just one list with more than 2 cowboy at the ETC
    • MxM wrote:

      Cowboy spam is already very uncommon. To be honest they give more variety to the competitive SA lists.
      Exactly, the thing is - if - we get new toys to play with we will have to give something back. As other army books already have a 0 - 2 limit on some mounts, I believe that this is going to happen anyway for external balance. Hope I am wrong but honestly feel that it will happen. not only myself but IPower and Sonny1086 have suggested in the past that some form of fast foot Veteran should be included in the new book. IF this was to happen then with the point saved from the 2 redundent raptors could be used to buy a baby carny. Thereby still enableling SA players access to the 4 fast character build.
      Not ideal but as stated in my view this type of limit will happen so feel SA players should plan ahead just in case.
    • After some feedback i had a closer re-look on the draft and did some tweaks.

      Change log:

      -no poisoned javelins anymore, instead jungle javelins (Strenght as user +1 S and +1 AP, no poison)
      -Carnosaur mount for Veteran -20pts
      -Carnosaur Large Model with Towering Presence (no AoD or Bluffers Helm "Problem" + better BSB)
      -SW spears +1ppm
      -Skink Skirmisher with Bow option
      -Iguan Jungle Riders lose Scoring when Ambush
      -Iguan Temple Riders +10 ppm
      -Snake Swarms no more Scout option, instead Ambush option for 40 pts
      -Dimetrodon hit on (3+) and have an option for Q2F aswell
      -Stygiosaur/Wizard Conclave counts towards Thunder Lizards (100%) and Characters (30%)
      -Ancient Shield of the Deities (magical item)
      -Sacred Harness of the Crocodile Deity (magical item)

      dropbox.com/s/1xmkkia2lyyfw4z/…%20extra%20fluff.pdf?dl=0

      i hope this is an improvement ;)

      The post was edited 1 time, last by sonny1086 ().