All SA need is love - unofficial SA project

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    • OK your choice. However, how you think giving fellow SA players more information ( on 2 related Threads ) is ' OFF TOPIC ' is beyond me.
      As all human beings ( in my experience ) make better decisions with fuller information I feel giving that information would actually be of benefit for all. Have you actually considered that after seeing the 2 different views and after considering same that the players in question may come up with better suggestion(s) than either of us !
    • Ok here we go,

      after another disapointing update for SA and after the epic new DL book, it seems the mood of the SA community turned from frustration into resignation, which is even worse. The combination of not addressing the biggest problems in th SA book and the kowledge that nothing will change in next couple of years is pretty harsh. I dont say the current book is bad, tbh it is pretty good overall, but nevertheless it is very boring and has still some big problems to solve, e.g. Core Section, Thyroscutus and Caiman Ancient. Sadly there were many chances missed in that regards. In Addition the ASAW doesnt realy exist in the current book and some changes seems completely arbitrary. BUT the book is an uncut diamond, which doesnt need THAT much reconstruction. Some small redisigns (beside Thyroscutus and CA), more core options and some reshuffles of rules/items may do wonders. I also would prefere some other names, but that is something marginal for fluffbunnies like me.

      A long way was to go!
      As in other forums, the SA forum produce a tons of ideas and suggestions, which have a range between expirience based feedback and christmas wishes/wet dreams for the own playstyle. It is not easy for me to distinguish between them, so this project realy rely on the feedback of more expirienced players! I tried hard to collect feedback from the SA community, i realy did, but it wasnt that yielding than it could be as from a staff member. Besides the other threads, i opened specific threads regarding specific problems.

      1) Thyroscutus:Thyroscutus - the last Call

      2) Caiman Ancient: Caiman Ancient - the last Call

      3) Army Strength and Weaknesses: Strengths and Weaknesses of SA


      Thanks a lot to all, who shared their oppinion and ideas!!!

      What was the goal?
      To create a well balanced FAB draft which allows to play the three most wanted playstyles (Monster Mash, Infantrybased and Guerillas). See also Saurian Ancients - RT poll . Hopefully this can enable a much earlier FAB for SA. In Addition all units should be appeare in competitive lists.

      What is the result?

      A subjectivly filtered summary of ideas and suggestions from SA community, tweaked and pressed in the frame of ASAW and personal oppinions. If i learned one thing in here, it is that you cannot make everyone happy and if you try the result is even worse. The important thing is that you have clear guidelines (including restrictions), which should be followed as much as possible. The main guidlines here were the determined ASAW (S: Magic, Defensive Alignment, Short Range/ Maneuravibility --- W:Long Range, Cheap Mass, Offensive Alignment + given ASAW from RT). But tbh the FAB draft consists 80% of the current book, hehe.

      The main changes in Short:

      -Boosting Magic: new Army Rule, new cuatl disciplines, better Telepathic Link and access to some Evocation spells to none cuatl units [considering Army Strength Magic]

      -Nerfed Cooldblooded: Skinks (without Caimans) loses CB, but gain +1Ld (+2Ld for characters mounted on Palanquin or taurosaur). Minimized rolls only for breaktests. [considering ASAW from RT]. This is a huge change, but the current CB rule is a massive Army Strength and is tweaked to normal level. In Addition the minimized roll for break test is still powerfull and underline the grinding/defensive Army Strength. In Addition better and more 18" BSB options are available.

      -Better and more Short Range/ maneuverability options, no more long range arm fire. Main change poisoned javelins for Core R+F Skinks (no more JG points), no short bows and tweaked Spearback. [considering Short Range/Maneuvaribility Army Strength and Jungle Guerilla Playstyle)

      - Redisign of Thyroscutus and Caiman Ancient.

      - Connection of Totem Animals to Characters on foot. Moderate enhencements with clear restrictions (no buffwagons). Only way to give characters on foot a chance in competetive lists. [considering Infantrybased playstyle]

      - More Core options. [considering army list variability and scoring ability]

      - Two small but significant changes HT Standart for BSBs and Heavy Armour for mounted Saurus Characters aswell {considering Monster Mash playstyle]

      Changes in Detail:
      Display Spoiler

      -New army rule (Magical Temper). More Channels in the first magic phase allows full magic power at turn 1.

      -Nerfed CB (Ancient Temper). Skinks (without Caimans) loses minimized rolls for Ld tests, but gain +1 Ld (+2 Ld for Skink Characters on Palanquin or Taurosaur). Only minimized rolls for breaktests. Reason: tweaked CB to o normal powerlevel.

      -Born Predator (prehistoric Instincts) unchanged, but more units have access.

      -Boosted Telepathic link allows full range magic missles when using one Veil Token. No More Symbiosis.

      -Animal Totems (Manifestations, Blessings, Marks) of the Deities on characters on foot give reason to field them. Medium enhencements (no buffwagons). Still only one kind of totem, but more core options aswell. Personal sidenote: i dont like the name Animal Totem, it is more sth from the native northamerican indians, mesoamerican indians rely more on deities imho.

      -New Army Weapon: Obsidian Weapons Attribute gives Close Combat Weapons of any kind +1S. TG, Caimans and Raptor Riders get them.

      -Magical items were renamed and tweaked to ASAW.

      -Heriditary Spell +1 to cast for none boosted version.

      -Cuatl lords get Disciplines redisign. It is odd that we have disciplines for Divination and Evocation, but not for Pyromancy and Alchemy. Stupid elves think cuatls only use four path, hehe. Grasp of Immortals becomes an option +10 pts. No more problem with discipline combinations. Loses Aigis (4+) to keep the Points low.

      -Saurus Characters can use Heavy Armour when mounted. Raptor Riders loses 1 Armour (see Raptor Riders) so Raptor Cowboy may be unchanged, but this allows Heavy Armour on Baby Carnosaurs, which is absolutely neccessary.

      -Small changes for Saurus Mounts. +1 for Charge roll for Raptor Rider Unit. Baby Carnosaur loses Frenzy and Battle Focus, but gains Off4 (removal of old Warhammer rule). Alpha Carnosaur loses Apex predator (mostly useless rule and save complexity points of the book) and costs -10 Points (Starfall Shard +10 Pts).

      -Skink Characters get +1 Ld and loses CB. Access to Totem Animals (craete some sweet Skink Characters on Foot options).

      -Skink Mounts. Rhamphodons get tweaked (see Rhamphodon Riders). Cause of losing CB Rhamphodon mounts become a small BSB for Rhamphodon unit. Same for Pteradons. Taurosaur mount gives +1 Ld. Fluffy Palanquin Upgrade gives +1 spell (Whisper of the Veil) and a very fluffy special rule.

      -Caiman Ancient: Access to Paired Weapons and two customization modes (for Caiman block or lone Character). Access to Totem Animal to reasonable enhencement of Caiman blocks and Skink blocks.

      -Two more Core Units. Jaguar Warriors are basically SW with Jaguar Totem and Spears, but -1 Armour. Otherwise they will be an autoinclude. Serpent Skink Warriors are basically more "fighty skinks". Off/ Deff 3, Spears, Poisoned Attacks and +1 Ld. Core Skinks remain core with Poisoned Javelins.

      - Temple Guard get tweaked weapon. -1S but Parry. The simple reason is no more Mixoatl Totem is needed, which is more or less an autoinclude atm and underline the defensive character of this unit even more.

      -Caiman Warriors get same Obsidian Weapon (+1S) and a small point hike.

      - Jungle Raptor Riders get same Obsidian Weapon (+1S) and loses 1 Armour. Massive Point reduction instead. This is in contrast to defensive alignment, but in this case it is a theme/background/fluff reason. Heavy Cavalry in a Jungle Guerilla Army, are you serious?

      -Jungle Swarms are unchanged.

      -Skink Hunter get -2 pts ppm but Blowpipes get +2 pts ppm. Balance reasons.

      -Chameleon Hunters are unchanged.

      -Spearbacks get Skirmish and a huge prize reduction, but loses range and get -1S for shots. Decreasing range but increasing maneuverability. Should replace Bow Skinks somehow and shoul keep same powerlevel. Unsure if S4 and higher prize is better, let me now.

      - Salamanders are unchanched.

      -Pteradon Sentries: Tweaked Release Rock(s), but give better Short Range/ Harassement options.

      -Rhamphodon Riders lose CB and 1 Armour. Tweaked Prey Scent to make them more usfull in other cases. They get +1 Attack and Borned Predator, Distracting, +1Def and +1Ld for compansation. The current Rhamphodons heavily are in contrast with the ASAW (Offensive Alignment) and 3+ Armour like a dragon is a pretty odd. All flying units should be vurnerable to shooting.I tried to keep the powerlevel the same, let me know if not.

      -Taurosaur loses Devastating charge and gets Born Predator instead (considering Defensive Alignment/ Grinding). The Engine of the Ancients got a little nerf. Need to use 1 Veil Token to change configuration. Tweaked Range Attack. Loses one of a kind.

      -Stygiosaur gets Telepathic link in base profile and a little point hike. Skink Rider gets +1 Attack and Light Lance. Mythic Traveller allow access to Whisper of the Veil and Spectral Blades, but loses Heriditary and Savage Fury. (Evocation is mainly a support Path).

      -Thyroscutus only have stubborn in first round of combat. Got also reroll crushed attack in flank, Born Predatory, D3 Stomps and +1 Ld (better Grinding). Two customizations available (Venemous Tide or magical missle (short/medium range)).

      I want to point out that most of the ideas and suggestions were collected from several threads/discussions from different members of the SA community. I just summerized the in my view best ideas. It was a ton of work and effort, but also a lot of fun! It would be a great pity if this work is useless.

      While thinking about points and balancing reasons some imaginary lists were build (feedback loop). Three maxed out lists of the three most wanted playstyles are listed as an example. Of course no playtesting was done yet.
      Monster Mash
      Display Spoiler

      Iguan Warlord (General), Heavy Armour, Light Lance, Shield, Touch of the Greatness, Dragon Staff, Death Cheater, Carnosaur
      [745 pts]
      Iguan Veteran (BSB), Heavy Armour, Light Lance, Shield, Basalt Infusion, Lucky Charm, Glittering Totem of the Blazing Sphere, Carnosaur
      [620]
      Skink Priest (Druidism), Adept, Jade Scepter of Ixitli, Golden Plate of huexotl, Palanquin
      [350]

      26xIguan Warriors, CSM, Standard of the Relentless Company
      [581]
      15xSkink Warriors, Musician
      [160]
      15xSkink Warriors, Musician
      [160]

      2xJungle Swarms, Scout
      [145]

      3xRhamphodons, Champion, Shields
      [264]
      3xRhamphodons, Champion, Shields
      [264]
      7x Chameleon Hunters
      [170]
      7xChameleon Hunters
      [170]

      Taurosaur, Engine of the Skies
      [540]
      Thyroscutus
      [325]

      Guerillas
      Display Spoiler

      Iguan Warlord (General), Heavy Armour, Spear, Shield, Jade-veined Obsidian, Tarosaur Helmet, Rangers Boots, Manifestation of the Jaguar Deity
      [520]
      Skink Greatcrest, Light Lance, Basalt Infusion, Egg of the Giant Quetzl, Alpha Pteradon
      [255]
      Skink Priest (Shamanosm), Palanquin, Altar of the Horned Serpent Deity, Golden Plate of Huexotl
      [390]

      15xJaguar Warriors
      [300]
      15xSerpent Warriors, Musician, Standard, Wafting Totem of the Thirteen Skies
      [310]
      15xSkink Warriors, Musician, Jungle Javelins
      [220]
      15xSkink Warriors, Musician, Jungle Javelins
      [220]

      10xSkink Hunters, Jungle Javelins
      [160]
      4xPteradon Sentries, Fire Bolas
      [255]
      2xFire Salamander
      [330}
      2xFire Salamander
      [330]

      Stygiosaur
      [320}
      Stygiosaur
      [320]
      Quetzlcuatl, BSB
      [550]

      Infantry-based
      Display Spoiler

      Cuatl Lord (Evocation, Pyromancy)(General), Rending Banner, Essence of the free Mind, Talisman of the Void, Veteran of the Apocalypse, Exploration of the Netherworld
      [780]
      Iguan Veteran (BSB), Heavy Armour, Spear, Shield, Dusk Forge, Basalt Infusion, Manifestation of the Piranha Deity
      [410]
      Caiman Ancient, Paired Weapons, Egg of the Giant Quetzl, Lightning Vambrace, Prehistoric Lurker
      [350]

      15xIguan Warriors, CSM
      [310]
      15xIguan Warriors, CSM
      [310]
      15xIguan Warriors, Musician, Champion
      [290]

      30 Iguan Temple Guard, CSM, Totem of Mixoatl
      [915]

      7xSkink Hunters, Blowpipes
      [152]
      7xSkink Hunters, Blowpipes
      [152]
      6xChameleon Hunters
      [160]
      1xSpiked Salamander
      [125]
      1xSpiked Salamander
      [125]

      Stygiosaur, Avatar of the Horned Serpent Deity
      [420]

      Dual Carno list seems strong, Guerilla maybe too strong, Cuatl may be to cheap. What do you think? Some point adjustments and unit limits should be done maybe.

      I will work on some fluff in Febraury. Will be update continuously. As always comments and feedback is welcome. Plz let me know what you think.

      Actual Version (April 2019):

      dropbox.com/s/s7hytjd9y4jqn79/SA%20Homebrew%202019.pdf?dl=0

      with marked changes:

      dropbox.com/s/ypcuapzti7g1ks1/…nges%20in%20blue.pdf?dl=0


      Keep on going.

      The post was edited 5 times, last by sonny1086 ().

    • To be honest I am still playing a total different Setups every tourney I play, and there are sill some I haven't given a Chance, yet ...

      Advisary Board Member

      Workfields: Tournament Analysis, Army Community Support, Playtesting, Community Engagement, Translation/ United Nations DE Blog: Inside TA. The biggest german Tabletop Board: tabletopwelt.de
    • I appreciate to see all the work here and some ideas are cool. There is something i would like to point it out.

      I think that the actual rulebook is nearly perfect...I know it seems strange, but i don't have big complains about the army. You already stated the problem with Caiman and Thyroscutus. But this is very minimal to me as i can see so many way to play SA at the moment.

      What i personally really want, is more options linked with gods/totems/spawning maks or whatever, to make theme armies (like an old junkie), and some names changes (like caiman come on ! This is the smallest reptile between Crocodile Alligator and Caimans...) more references to Aztec/Mayan/Tolteque population. But this is only me and it doesn't really count.

      When i see the deamon legion rulebook i can't wait to see the same thing for SA. I just don't know/see if people are really frustrated or resignated.

      Basically, i like the strenght and the weaknesses of the army. Because what i like the most is that this armybook looks balanced.
    • I totally agree that the rule book is almost perfect. This is realy crazy what the big guys did with the basic rules and that is the fundament of the whole game. Just amazing how good this is.

      I also agree that the current SA book is in not that bad, it is realy good tbh (as i mentioned several times). Even the internal balance is better than ever before! And beside some names the draft is basically the current book (75-85%).

      The main goal is that ASAW should realy matter (for all armies in best case). I guess this plus a good fluff is a very good way to crystallize the "essence" of each fraction.
    • Why are people resigned and frustrated? That is not a difficult question.

      The answer is two fold, on one hand the book is not bad, the army is playable, but it is bland. Bland and boring frankly. I came back a few weeks ago after a long break (decided to quit after the RT decided to "fix" people not taking Cuatl by nerfing the skink shaman...) and while the book is better in some ways, the major defects (for example only two core choices, our supposedly elite infantry being too expensive to play the role of basic line infantry and not killy enough to go after deathstars, etc.) mostly remain.

      The second is that time and again the community has hoped for a rework, and has always been disappointed. Now we are being told that we are not getting any more reworks until the full book (which will in all like hood take several years), is it so surprising that morale is low?

      Anyhow as for the future book, well there are too approaches, one is that a SA army should have saurus and skinks and dinosaurs, the other is that the army should be able to fulfil 3 separate play-style, namely monster mash, infantry heavy list and evasion. While the second approach looks nice, I don't believe it is realistic. The balancing for that seems impossible to me. As such my own opinion is that evasion should be left to pansy elves and try to go for a combined arms army.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Zorin ().

    • Zorin wrote:

      Anyhow as for the future book, well there are too approaches, one is that a SA army should have saurus and skinks and dinosaurs, the other is that the army should be able to fulfil 3 separate play-style, namely monster mash, infantry heavy list and evasion. While the second approach looks nice, I don't believe it is realistic.
      Every SA player should be able to give more or less weight to each playstyle aspect for his individual army. I also prefer a mix of all of them, but some other players may prefer just one playstyle. That should be also possible without being underpowered nore overpowerd. The three imaginary lists were a try to visualize balance issues.
      I guess a lot of SA are only SA player because "Evasion" or Guerilla is an aspect from this army, so this should be definitely a part of the Saurian Ancients. This and Dinosaurs!!!

      Zorin wrote:

      The balancing for that seems impossible to me.
      Difficult yes, impossible not. At least it worth a try.
    • I love it! The general implementation is great!

      Things I’d like to see in your next revision:

      1. Keep some version of spirit of the stampede. I like that item.

      2. Move quetzoquatl to characters, change unit type to gigantic, add wrath of god to spell selection. Make him a master. Change to r6, s6 and add an ability that increases thunders lizard cap to 45%. I could see him costing about 700 based on the daemon legion book for their greater demons.

      3. Add a new unit entry in thunderlizards called carnosaur. Make the unit size 2-4. Pretty much an unridden carnosaur.

      4. Move pteradon sentries to core. Take away “drop rocks”. Even though in your book our core became four entries, the actual amount of list building freedom decreased as caiman skink units are no longer a thing. We would have fewer options for core than we already do. Just make pteradons a core unit focused on chaff. And give them blowpipes :) Dread elves have dark riders for about 200 pts with their equipment. I could see charging 200 for pteradons as well. (I like the serpent warriors a lot by the way:) )

      5. Give a caiman unit option to ambush along with the caiman ancient.


      Love what you did with the book!
    • Thx for feedback, dude! I realy appreciate it. Regarding your points:

      MountainBuns wrote:

      1. Keep some version of spirit of the stampede. I like that item
      This is the only item, which is used atm and not implemented in this book here. The reason is Offensive Alignment (first damage output) should be an army weakness. This is the reason i had real struggle to adjust the Rhamphodons, because they seems fine now in the official AB, but army weakness should matter imho.

      MountainBuns wrote:

      2. Move quetzoquatl to characters, change unit type to gigantic, add wrath of god to spell selection. Make him a master. Change to r6, s6 and add an ability that increases thunders lizard cap to 45%. I could see him costing about 700 based on the daemon legion book for their greater demons.
      Fight capabilities and points should be not that high, it was mentioned as a cuatl (sphere of shielding) alterantive for guerillas or monster mash playstyles. I aggree a Comet Spell whould be awsome for the SA, but we have already acceess to six path. Additional spells from other paths seems too much. The rest is a great idea and was implemented :thumbsup: I did some quick calculations, +5% Thunder Lizards is enough to run FOUR!! Dinos. You wont have any points left for other things, but who care, if you have an army of big Dinos 8-) . Now this book has two options to boost guerillas (Chameleon BSB) or monster mash (Quetzcuatl) playstyles, maybe this can be outsourced in auxillaries armies in future, if this is overloading the book.

      MountainBuns wrote:

      3. Add a new unit entry in thunderlizards called carnosaur. Make the unit size 2-4. Pretty much an unridden carnosaur.
      Maybe we can start to make Raptor Riders 2HP? We have to think about the availability of the models also.

      MountainBuns wrote:

      4. Move pteradon sentries to core. Take away “drop rocks”. Even though in your book our core became four entries, the actual amount of list building freedom decreased as caiman skink units are no longer a thing. We would have fewer options for core than we already do. Just make pteradons a core unit focused on chaff. And give them blowpipes Dread elves have dark riders for about 200 pts with their equipment. I could see charging 200 for pteradons as well. (I like the serpent warriors a lot by the way:) )
      The "drop rock rule" in this book is mainly a fluffy thing. Whould have no problems to remove it, if the book is too complicated overall. Chaff in core seems a bad idea, because even it is capped somehow it will become an autoinclude for sure. Blowpipe options was implemented :thumbsup: I am wondering Scaimans arent used that often anymore. Maybe the unit isnt needed that much anymore, because RT are killing cowboys overall. Maybe we need a new reason to field them.

      MountainBuns wrote:

      5. Give a caiman unit option to ambush along with the caiman ancient.
      In this book we have already Vanguard and Scout (aswell ambush for the CA) options. Additionally deployment options could create an significant army strength. In addition i dont think we would get an fat fighty block with ambush. But a new Caiman unit entry (1-3 skirmishing Caimans) could be an cool alternative maybe.

      Updated book:
      dropbox.com/s/s7hytjd9y4jqn79/SA%20Homebrew%202019.pdf?dl=0

      with marked changes:

      dropbox.com/s/ypcuapzti7g1ks1/…nges%20in%20blue.pdf?dl=0

      Additional main changes:
      -Thyroscutus mount for skinks (replacing Rhamphodon mount)

      Keep on going

      The post was edited 2 times, last by sonny1086 ().

    • I like that change a lot! The thyro will be a great mount. The quetzocuatl looks much better to me. I totally agree with a lot of your points.
      I did notice the iguan raptor riders are 325. I assume that was a typo and they are meant to be 225? They have light lance now instead of regular lance and are way too pricey for cavalry. I think making raptors have 2hp would really set apart our cavalry to others (but what would that do to price?) a cool option for raptor riders would be to have halberds instead of light lance and have 2hp each. They could be priced around 270 since their shield no longer works in combat and they are sitting on a 3+. That would really increase our grindiness as opposed to our first turn damage.
      Having riderless raptors in core would also be a good solution to our core blandness. Make them similar to the ok core tigers.(?)

      Also I’ve been thinking about it. We don’t have access to a proper monster mash because the unit type of most of our monsters is large. We miss out on our anti infantry stomps. Warriors of the dark gods have 6 different models with gigantic. We have 2. Can we please give two of either the thyro, Stygio, or quetzo gigantic? This would really diversify our monsters from just the taurosaur.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by MountainBuns ().

    • MountainBuns wrote:

      I like that change a lot! The thyro will be a great mount. The quetzocuatl looks much better to me. I totally agree with a lot of your points.
      I did notice the iguan raptor riders are 325. I assume that was a typo and they are meant to be 225? They have light lance now instead of regular lance and are way too pricey for cavalry. I think making raptors have 2hp would really set apart our cavalry to others (but what would that do to price?) a cool option for raptor riders would be to have halberds instead of light lance and have 2hp each. They could be priced around 270 since their shield no longer works in combat and they are sitting on a 3+. That would really increase our grindiness as opposed to our first turn damage.
      Having riderless raptors in core would also be a good solution to our core blandness. Make them similar to the ok core tigers.(?)
      Raptor Riders are realy difficult, because i dont realy can find a purpose for them. Tactical unit for antichaff, scoring, support on flank, warmashine hunting etc. or combat unit as shock unit or mobile grinding block. Both purposes are already present in the book. In first case we can make them 1 HP, Off3, AS 3+, Light Lances, vanguard and cheap or in second case sth like mounted TG 2HP, Off4, As 3+, Halberds (with obsidian weapons) and very expensive. ATM they are a mix of both in this book here (maybe too expenisive). The third way is to make them more ineffective and move to core, but i dont realy like this way. I will add Halberd option :thumbsup:

      MountainBuns wrote:

      Also I’ve been thinking about it. We don’t have access to a proper monster mash because the unit type of most of our monsters is large. We miss out on our anti infantry stomps. Warriors of the dark gods have 6 different models with gigantic. We have 2. Can we please give two of either the thyro, Stygio, or quetzo gigantic? This would really diversify our monsters from just the taurosaur.
      I broke my head about this topic and came to the conclusion that we whould have to pay a lot of points for D6 Stomps. I even had D3 Stomps on Thyroscutus and Quetzlcuatl in mind, but skipped this idea. The reason was i want too keep the points as low as possible. The effect is that we can distinguished between fighty/combat monsters (Alphacarnosaur and Taurosaur) and support "monsters" (Stygiosaur, Thyroscutis and Quetzlcuatl). In Addition the low points allows to field more "monsters" overall. But an option to upgrade the support monsters to "ancient ones" with D6 Stomps could be interessting :thumbsup: We should rename the playstyle "March of the Dinosaurs" anyway ;)
    • After a short evaluation from the SA internal balance data (Saurian Ancients INTERNAL BALANCE: Please help your ACS and TA with Tourneylist Analysis) and some reviews/comparisons new small changes/edits where made:

      Universal rules:
      -added Hatred to Serpent Manifestation
      -optional upgrade for Taurosaur, Thyroscutus and Stygiosaur for Giganic Hight and +1HP (MonsterMash)

      Units:
      -Cuatl lord +10 p
      -Saurian Characters base -10 p , +10 p for mounts and + 10 p manifestatons
      -Thyroscutus Mount for Skink Characters
      -change Palanquin Upgrade
      -rechange Spearbacks
      -rechange Rhamphodons (more like the actaul version of the official SA book)
      -base Babytaurosaur with optional upgrade to actual version
      -rechange EotA (simplification + point hike)
      -new spell for Mystic Traveller Stygiosaur

      Will work on some Internal Fluff in near future. If somebody want to contribute some fluff or even some artwork it would be very appreciated. I guess the book is very balanced (every unit and upgrade can be used in competitive lists) and pretty solid (no overpowerd synergies and builds) and the whole concept can be fixed with only pointadjustments and unit limitations. I will ask for some testgamers on UB to fix any remaining balance issues in that regards. Any hints or remarks will help aswell.

      actual version:
      dropbox.com/s/s7hytjd9y4jqn79/SA%20Homebrew%202019.pdf?dl=0

      actal version with marked changes from official SA book:
      dropbox.com/s/ypcuapzti7g1ks1/…nges%20in%20blue.pdf?dl=0

      Keep on going.

      edit: added Obsidian Weapons to army weapons. Access for Saurian Characters, Raptor Riders and Caimans.

      edit2 (28th July 2019):
      - added unit amount restrictions
      - improved TL again, Cuatl can cast any spells + full range, if discard one Veil Token through model with TL
      - moved Hatred from Serpent Manifestation to unit entry Serpent Warriors, Serpent Manifestation - 10 points
      - minus 5 points for Armour Enchantments for Skink Heroes on foot
      - rechange Pyromancy Discipline and Protean Discipline from Cuatl Lord
      - minus 1 ppm for Serpent Warriors
      - TG 0-1 per Cuatl Lord, -5 points per unit
      - improved Range for Fire Bolas 12" now
      - 0-2 EotA (modified) available
      - rechange Sun Engine from Thyroscutus

      edit3 (03. August):
      - added Fire Bolas to Army Weapons
      - Skink Captain and Thyruscuts Crew get access to Fire Bolas
      - minus 5 ppm for Obsidian Halberds on Raptor Riders
      - Rhamphodon mount give Minimzed Discipline Roll for Rhampodons and Pteradons within 12" (instead of rerolls)
      - +1 ppm for Poisoned Javelins on Serpent Warriors
      - minus 20 points for Skinkpalanquin upgrade
      - Rhamphodons Def 3 now

      edit4(20. August 2019):
      -Telepathic Link Source and Medium, Model with Special Item, Quetzlcuatl and Mystic Traveller can use Telepathic Link as Source
      -Chameleon Hero upgrade +10 pts and gains Hard Target (3)
      -Quetzlcuatl counts additionally towards Thunder Lizards, BSB upgrade +15% Thunder Lizards.
      -Fire Bolas get Wildfireburst Rule
      -Poison of the Black Tarantula (Special Item) gets Shots3, +10 pts
      -only one Alpha Animal mount can join a unit
      -Skinkpalanquin +20 pts, Snake Altar -10 pts
      -Jaguar Warriors +1 Of
      -Rhamphodons move to Special Category, loses Prey Scent and gain Hatred
      -Salamander -5 pts
      -Thyroscutus +1 Def
      -EotA +5 pts

      edit5(24. August 2019)
      - +5 points for Telepathic Nexus
      - Raptor Riders -1w and -70 ppu, -5 pts ppm, option to Vanguard
      - Skink Hunters Light Armour Option +3 ppm, Champion -15 points
      - Chameleons Champion -15 points
      - Pteradon Sentries Champion -10 points

      edit6(01. September 2019)
      - rechange Spearbacks (note Synergy with Fire Bolas)

      edit7(07. September 2019)
      -Telepathic Nexus +10 points
      -adjusted Cuatl Lord disciplines
      -Thyroscutus mount -10 points
      -Ligh armor option Skink Hunters -1 point
      -Fire Salamander -10 ppm
      -Rechange Lava Engine

      edit8(08. September 2019 Version b2.01)
      -additional Skinkpalanquinupgrade
      -rechange Engine of the Skies
      -rechange Lava Engine
      -no Towering Presence on Thyroscutus and Taurosaur basic mounts (without Ancient Creature upgrade)
      -no Hereditary Spell for Mystic Traveller -5 Points for upgrade
      -rechange serrate scales

      edit9(16. September 2019)
      -no Paired Weapons for Caiman Ancient
      -Iguan Warriors -1 ppm
      -Jaguar Warriors -1 ppm
      -Rhamphs got Devastating Charge (+2 Off, -2 Def), + 15 ppu, +5 ppm
      -Engine of the Skies can increase 5++ bubble range by +6" per Veil Token
      -TG 0-1 per army

      The post was edited 18 times, last by sonny1086 ().

    • Hello Dudes,

      after some little feedback its time to start the next phase of the project. Playtesting Time!!

      If you want to have some fun, you can pick up your SA models, build a a SA army, which you always wanted to play and test them against a good buddy. I can tell you this will be a lot of fun for both players. If you do so, you can share the results here and we will discuss them. Any suggestions are highly welcome and will be considered. Ofc I am also searching for some dudes, which can spare two-three hours to have a short game on UB. I will offer you a regame with a official AB of your choice, if you want to test your Hombrew army (a game between two beta Hombrew arnies wont work well). Results will be puplished here in detail (short reports). So...

      Step 1) take this:

      dropbox.com/s/ypcuapzti7g1ks1/…nges%20in%20blue.pdf?dl=0

      Step 2) build a SA army, which you always wanted to play and test them

      Step 3) share your expirience

      If we can show its working maybe, just maybe it will help to accelerate the LAB process. I am still optimistic.

      Regarding the three determined playstyles, personally i want to test following lists:

      Monster Mash:
      Display Spoiler

      590- Iguan Vetrean, General, Carnosaur, Heavy Armor, Shield, Light Lance, Death Cheater
      575- Iguan Veteran, Carnosaur, Heavy Armor, Shield, Light Lance, Basalt Infusion, Dusk Forge
      550- Quetzlcuatl (Druidism), BSB

      515- 20 Jaguar Warriors, FC, Flaming Standard
      436- 19 Jaguar Warriors, C,M

      260- 3 Rhamphodons, C, Shields
      260- 3 Rhamphodons, C, Shields

      150- 6 Chameleon Hunters
      150- 6 Chameleon Hunters

      530- Taurosaur, Ancient Creature, Engine of the Skies
      480- Thyroscutus, Ancient Creature, Lava Engine

      Total 4496


      Jungle Guerilla
      Display Spoiler

      535- Skink Greatcrest, General, Taurosaur, Paired Weapons, Shield Breaker, Binding Scroll
      625- Skink Greatcrest, BSB, Thyroscutus, Ancient Creature, Serrate Scales, Lucky Charm
      420- Skinkpriest (Shamanism), Adept, Palanquin, Altar of the Horned Serpent Deity, Sun Tablet, Jade Staff

      270- 15 Iguan Warriors, M
      315- 15 Serpent Warriors, M, Poisoned Javelins
      315- 15 Serpent Warriors, M, Poisoned Javelins

      195- 4 Snake Swarms
      160- 3 Snake Swarms

      300- 2 Fire Salamanders, Mangrove Forest Salamander
      300- 2 Fire Salamanders, Mangrove Forest Salamander
      240- 2 Thorned Lizards
      255- 4 Pteradon Sentries, Fire Bolas
      255- 4 Pteradon Sentries, Blowpipes

      320- Thyroscutus, Arc of the Horned Serpent Deity

      Total 4500


      Magic and Infantry
      Display Spoiler

      625- Cuatl Lord (Evocation), General, Exploration of the Netherworld, Magical Heilroom, Binding Scroll
      405- Iguan Veteran, BSB, Piranha Manifestation, Heavy Armor, Shield, Handweapon (Obsidian Weapons), Basalt Infusion, Rending Banner
      370- Skink Priest (Shamanism), Adept, Palanquin, Oracle of the Sky Serpent, Sun Tablet

      565- 25 Iguan Warriors, CSM, Rending Banner
      565- 25 Iguan Warriors, CSM, Rending Banner

      730- 25 Iguan Temple Guards, CSM, Totem of Mixoatl
      210- 3 Rhamphodons
      210- 3 Rhamphodons
      250- 5 Iguan Raptor Riders, M, Vanguard

      130- 5 Skink Hunters, Blowpipes, Light Armor
      130- 5 Skink Hunters, Blowpipes, Light Armor

      310- Stygiosaur

      Total 4490


      If you are interssted and can spare 2-3 h, we can set up an UB game. Just PM me.

      Keep dreaming

      The post was edited 2 times, last by sonny1086 ().