Frenzied Orcs idea.

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  • But then again orcs sport that fantastic T4
    and I still believe; Light infantry should fight and shoot in 3 ranks, FREE command groups for EoS units. Imperial Guards should have weaponmaster and both parent and support, and that halbardiers should wear heavy armor. Brace for impact should be changed to, or there should be an extra order: " Have at THEM!" The unit gain battle focus.
    For Sunna and the Emperor!!
  • Throgg wrote:

    Smythen wrote:

    But then again orcs sport that fantastic T4
    right up there with those toughest armies: WotDG, BH, SA, OK, DH, ID, DL...
    Truely it is what sets us apart.
    just saying that if EoS can do it withT3 I3 you can do it as good with T4 I2 (3with dual)
    and I still believe; Light infantry should fight and shoot in 3 ranks, FREE command groups for EoS units. Imperial Guards should have weaponmaster and both parent and support, and that halbardiers should wear heavy armor. Brace for impact should be changed to, or there should be an extra order: " Have at THEM!" The unit gain battle focus.
    For Sunna and the Emperor!!
  • But you can do that now. What this thread is proposing is to make all orcs frenzied, so effectively remove the option to take non frenzied orcs.

    For me at least this would push me into gun line builds as I don't want to have to deal with army wide frenzy and all the downsides it brings so I would just go with goblins instead.

    For those that take orcs I think it would result in a bit of a narrow list design as dealing with lots of frenzy would necessitate have a high ld general preferably with 18" IP and loads of chaff to prevent being frenzy baited.
  • sgu97bjd wrote:

    But you can do that now. What this thread is proposing is to make all orcs frenzied, so effectively remove the option to take non frenzied orcs.

    For me at least this would push me into gun line builds as I don't want to have to deal with army wide frenzy and all the downsides it brings so I would just go with goblins instead.

    For those that take orcs I think it would result in a bit of a narrow list design as dealing with lots of frenzy would necessitate have a high ld general preferably with 18" IP and loads of chaff to prevent being frenzy baited.
    whilst all orcs frenzied would be bad, I am not sure it would be this bad. I could imagine one wing of deployment being like this and fielding goblins, monsters and other things on the other side. The problem is where to put the leadership bubble.
  • Throgg wrote:

    sgu97bjd wrote:

    But you can do that now. What this thread is proposing is to make all orcs frenzied, so effectively remove the option to take non frenzied orcs.

    For me at least this would push me into gun line builds as I don't want to have to deal with army wide frenzy and all the downsides it brings so I would just go with goblins instead.

    For those that take orcs I think it would result in a bit of a narrow list design as dealing with lots of frenzy would necessitate have a high ld general preferably with 18" IP and loads of chaff to prevent being frenzy baited.
    whilst all orcs frenzied would be bad, I am not sure it would be this bad. I could imagine one wing of deployment being like this and fielding goblins, monsters and other things on the other side. The problem is where to put the leadership bubble.
    Sounds terribly limiting.

    The point is: We now have a choice between frenzied orcs and non-frenzied orcs. Removing either of those options would be bad, but removing the non-frenzied option would be bad and make the army significantly worse.

    Theo
  • I think it's fine. But maybe allow to have both an orc general and a goblin general. Only working with their own kind.
    Or a whaaaagh banner alowing rerolls of frenzy tests in adition to bsb.
    and I still believe; Light infantry should fight and shoot in 3 ranks, FREE command groups for EoS units. Imperial Guards should have weaponmaster and both parent and support, and that halbardiers should wear heavy armor. Brace for impact should be changed to, or there should be an extra order: " Have at THEM!" The unit gain battle focus.
    For Sunna and the Emperor!!
  • I actually think this idea is not only thematic, it could potentially make a lot of sense if done right. I have always loved animosity and the randomness, however I think if you want to do this right you'd have to ensure it's possible to build orc lists that don't have to deal with these repercussions (but at a cost). People should be able to build a list such that they can either make failed Frenzy checks very unlikely (babysitting with their general/BSB) or not have to take them at all. For the latter, you could implement a rule along the lines of the old Black Orc rule that basically means if there's a character in the unit they don't need to roll to restrain for frenzy, and aren't forced to overrun. Or it could be an optional unit upgrade. So the tradeoff would be that if you want to ensure you mitigate your Frenzy, you need to pay extra when you build your list. Or you can pay for the basics and it's possible your whole army will run off on you. Having characters impart this ability would incentivize players to play larger orc units and hordes since you get more bang for your buck from each character.

  • jmoddle wrote:

    I actually think this idea is not only thematic, it could potentially make a lot of sense if done right. I have always loved animosity and the randomness, however I think if you want to do this right you'd have to ensure it's possible to build orc lists that don't have to deal with these repercussions (but at a cost). People should be able to build a list such that they can either make failed Frenzy checks very unlikely (babysitting with their general/BSB) or not have to take them at all. For the latter, you could implement a rule along the lines of the old Black Orc rule that basically means if there's a character in the unit they don't need to roll to restrain for frenzy, and aren't forced to overrun. Or it could be an optional unit upgrade. So the tradeoff would be that if you want to ensure you mitigate your Frenzy, you need to pay extra when you build your list. Or you can pay for the basics and it's possible your whole army will run off on you. Having characters impart this ability would incentivize players to play larger orc units and hordes since you get more bang for your buck from each character.

    I actually think that is very sensible. I presume here all orc characters would have this ability to install order (propably violently)? It could work like that: if character with this ability is in unit and it either fails it's Ld check forcing it to charge or it is forced to overrun due to frenzy player can decide to sacrifice one model from the unit (that is brutally beaten by character) to regain order and either automatically pass frenzy check or ignore frenzy for the purpose of overrun. This would give player choice at small price and would be more thematic.

    Best regards
    Sklodo
    Best regards
    Sklodo

    Retireing for unspecyfied period of time. Sometime I hate the world.
  • Sklodo wrote:

    jmoddle wrote:

    I actually think this idea is not only thematic, it could potentially make a lot of sense if done right. I have always loved animosity and the randomness, however I think if you want to do this right you'd have to ensure it's possible to build orc lists that don't have to deal with these repercussions (but at a cost). People should be able to build a list such that they can either make failed Frenzy checks very unlikely (babysitting with their general/BSB) or not have to take them at all. For the latter, you could implement a rule along the lines of the old Black Orc rule that basically means if there's a character in the unit they don't need to roll to restrain for frenzy, and aren't forced to overrun. Or it could be an optional unit upgrade. So the tradeoff would be that if you want to ensure you mitigate your Frenzy, you need to pay extra when you build your list. Or you can pay for the basics and it's possible your whole army will run off on you. Having characters impart this ability would incentivize players to play larger orc units and hordes since you get more bang for your buck from each character.
    I actually think that is very sensible. I presume here all orc characters would have this ability to install order (propably violently)? It could work like that: if character with this ability is in unit and it either fails it's Ld check forcing it to charge or it is forced to overrun due to frenzy player can decide to sacrifice one model from the unit (that is brutally beaten by character) to regain order and either automatically pass frenzy check or ignore frenzy for the purpose of overrun. This would give player choice at small price and would be more thematic.
    Best regards
    Sklodo
    While I agree your solution of having to sacrifice models to avoid frenzy is thematic (kind of like the old Black Orc rules for restoring order), I think that people may dislike the added complexity. I was trying to suggest a solution that would appease people who want to have an option not to have to deal with frenzy at all. In my mind, every Orc character would have a rule ("Follow Orders" or some such) that allows their unit to avoid testing for frenzy and be able to test not to overrun. This would still be thematic because although orcs love to rush into battle, their leaders are smart enough to know when to wait and when to charge in. Your general could also confer this rule to models in their leadership bubble, if desired, which would just emulate how the orcs only follow orders when the boss is around. In most army lists, you could make it so that you never need to encounter Frenzy at all (2-3 larger units of orcs, each with a character, and supplemented by other units).

    I would even go so far as to suggest that you should be able to build an army comprised entirely of Iron Orcs including core orcs, who would never need to worry about Frenzy. The Iron Orcs in core would not get Weapon Master or Bodyguard, they would simply have access to heavy armour and ignore Frenzy.

    Some people might ask, if you're going to go to all this trouble, why not just give the orcs 2 Attacks since it's essentially what Frenzy is once you remove charge baiting and overrun. However, Frenzy can be lost. And I like the idea that the orcs keep fighting as long as they're winning but that they can lose their battle lust. I also like that if you kill of the orc characters, the army becomes harder to control. For these reasons, I think that giving Frenzy to all orcs would be a good way to make them more dangerous while also being enough of a double-edged sword that you don't need to increase their points cost.
  • jimbo81 wrote:

    i agree with frenzy for all orcs but NOT the lame frenzy we have now that is -1LD for all frenzy checks. Sucks!
    Oh yes it does but with mechanics to mitigate that it would be quite good. Bear in mind that this is not as good as second A as it can be taken away.
    Best regards
    Sklodo

    Retireing for unspecyfied period of time. Sometime I hate the world.
  • What about this one?

    Orc units deployed in horde formation get Frenzy at game start.

    It gives us the nice frenzy rule that fits good to Orcs. It is a good buff for the unwieldy horde that especially 25mms deserve. And it gives us the choice to use it or to skip it, depending what fits our plan better.

    We could use this rule as replacement of the current Unruly rule.

    Of course it would not connect with current rules for Feral Orcs, yes. But it would perfectly work on them if we remove frenzy as automatic rule for Feral Orcs and give them some kind of monster killing special rule (what seems to have good acceptance among the community) as exchange.
  • arwaker wrote:

    What about this one?

    Orc units deployed in horde formation get Frenzy at game start.

    It gives us the nice frenzy rule that fits good to Orcs. It is a good buff for the unwieldy horde that especially 25mms deserve. And it gives us the choice to use it or to skip it, depending what fits our plan better.

    We could use this rule as replacement of the current Unruly rule.

    Of course it would not connect with current rules for Feral Orcs, yes. But it would perfectly work on them if we remove frenzy as automatic rule for Feral Orcs and give them some kind of monster killing special rule (what seems to have good acceptance among the community) as exchange.
    Oh i like this. wery thematic and fluff friendly. Idea with monster killing seems good. Can be for example multiple wounds 2 wich should be quite strong against monsters unless S will be to low. Alternatively if we want to keep frenzy of ferals (I am not a fan just saying) we can get them unremovable frenzy in horde. Either way good idea :clapping: :clapping: :clapping:

    Best regards
    Sklodo
    Best regards
    Sklodo

    Retireing for unspecyfied period of time. Sometime I hate the world.
  • Throgg wrote:

    maybe they could build themselves up to a frenzy? Or feral orcs anyway... Whenever they declare a charge they gain frenzy. Still a risk of all the downsides but at least the first couple of turns are mitigated.
    Waaait so they start without it but they gain it if they declare charge. And loose it if they loose combat... and gain again if they charge again... Interesting.
    Best regards
    Sklodo

    Retireing for unspecyfied period of time. Sometime I hate the world.
  • Hm, not so convinced. If getting the advantage of Frenzy, we should also accept the full set of disadvantages -- not only forced overrun but also LD to avoid charges.

    I like this horde approach, because it symbolizes how wild and uncontrollable Orcs can become.

    Maybe it would make sense to widen the suggestion up, to not only apply to horde during deployment, but also to gain frenzy if make a reform during game.