How to make O&G into fighting CC horde.

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  • Just for confirmation:

    The suggestion is that dead Orcs will be removed at initiative step 0. This will have zero effect on large units (large enough not to lose attacks from casualties) but large positive effect on small units.

    Is that what you want to achieve with this change? Making small units stronger? Nice buff for Boearboys, true. But I don't quite see it as a buff for infantry.
  • Porko wrote:

    I am not sure if this has already been proposed:

    How about, "Green Fury": all the orcs in units of 30 or more, gain +1A if they have another unit of minimum 20 Orcs, at 6" or less from them.
    This is a nice approcah, but I would change it slightly. It should include Orcs of the same unit as well other units. It should be possible to either get the bonus with one really large unit, or with several medium units. Like for example:

    Green Fury
    An Orc unit gets +1 Attack if the sum of Orcs in this unit and all other units in 6" is 60 or more.
  • arwaker wrote:

    Green Fury

    An Orc unit gets +1 Attack if the sum of Orcs in this unit and all other units in 6" is 60 or more.
    1. How many orcs does a Boar Chariot count for?

    2. When do you measure that? Start of phase? Start of combat? Initiative step? How about :


    Green Fury
    At start of turn Orc unit gets Devastating Charge if the sum of Orcs in this unit and all other units in 6" is 60 or more.
  • outsiders view here so be gentle you savages.
    What if orcs are put in two different core categories?
    One archer boiiii and one mean eadbasher.
    Before pointing out what these specifics would be I want to discuss how I would change born to fight.
    Make born to fight rerolls of "1" to both hit and wound and if the horde is atleast 10 models wide they gain +1 to FieR.
    This would mean with horde formation changing (from what i heard but dont remember where 40mm bases 6 wide. 25mm 8 wide and 20mm 10 wide) you would be the only true horde army left but getting some gain for it. Or you could skipp the 10 wide and only gaining the rerolls to "1"s.
    This give you a fighting reason and not a LD reason to go full horde.

    Now to the arrow boiiis. No born to fight. S3 base, has choice between bow or crossbow. The price of them should generally go down since they have no double duty. And with a classic upgrade option for either common ( comes with LA and can purchase shield or spear) or feral (6+ ward and can purchase spear or PW)

    The eadbasher would have born to fight and base S4. Lower the WS to WS3 (IMHO this would be better for orcs in combination with the new born to fight, worse against WS3 units without shield, better against shields and better against WS4 and higher, only worse against WS7 or higher tbh)and INIT 2 to keep costs down. Atleast in my world since they would no longer have access to core S5 it would be fully acceptable to raise their max unit size to 40 or even 50 as the current standard orc. Common and feral upgrades gives the same as atm.

    So all in all cheaper orcs with more specific use. And more of them. You get an offensive boost from having larger units than any of your opponent (goes towards what seems to be the wanted playstyle) you get less brittle against shooting and are more grindy than the current first turn damage dealers.

    Then if we speak about character to unit synergies these should imo be leadership synergies. Such as the current unruly special rule?
    Because to me the orcs are not brave or show any specific traits of courage they are simply not that brave. However nothing is more scary to them than their boss, this one huge prime speicimen of an orc holds the whole the whole will of the army.
    Because it is not only that an orc bullies others, the orc leader is simply the biggest bully there is and only his enormous ego pushes the army forward. Because everyone fears him.
  • Wesser wrote:

    arwaker wrote:

    Green Fury


    An Orc unit gets +1 Attack if the sum of Orcs in this unit and all other units in 6" is 60 or more.
    1. How many orcs does a Boar Chariot count for?
    2. When do you measure that? Start of phase? Start of combat? Initiative step? How about :


    Green Fury
    At start of turn Orc unit gets Devastating Charge if the sum of Orcs in this unit and all other units in 6" is 60 or more.
    Green Fury": all the orcs in units of 30 or more, gain +1A if they have another unit of minimum 20 Orcs, at 6" or less from them.

    I was thinking in giving this rule just to orcs in core and this could be measured at the start of combat.
    In my opinion, this will give us a benefit in taking big units of orcs, it can last more than just one turn, it makes orcs more offensive and it is something simple and easy to remember (it can be add in Born to fight).

    Obviously, it can be a lot of different approaches to this, it is just and idea .

    The post was edited 2 times, last by Porko ().

  • I am gonna try to get one of my friends to play test my suggestion against me and my demons. And add some kind och LD synergy from the character. I will post my finding either here or in the playtesting sub forum of O&G with said changes to it.

    These are the suggested changes that I am gonna try to make him play with. Stuff without changes are not written here

    Born to Fight
    A model part with this special rule may reroll all natural to-hit and wound rolls of ‘1’ in Close Combat. In addition, if a unit is in Horde formation and atleast 10 models wide All model parts in the unit gain Fight in Extra Rank.

    Arrer orc boys. 180Pts
    No born to fight.
    equipment: Bows
    20 models, may add up to 30 models 12 pts/model
    Common Orc: May exchange all equipment for Crossbow and Heavy Armour 6 / model

    Orc ‘Eadbashers 260Pts
    Born to fight
    Base Strenght:4
    Base Weapon Skill:3
    20 models, may add up to 20 models 16 pts/model

    All current orc models swapp the old effect of Born to fight with the version I am suggesting

    Ruthless Leader
    As long as the general is not fleeing all units within the area of Inspiring Presence may when rolling for Panic and rally Tests, roll one additional D6 and remove the highest D6 rolled.

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Kapten Kluns ().

  • Hm, I fear dislike from Rules team when we suggest this "count Orcs in X". Don't misunderstand me, I think it would be a really nice and fluffy concept. But a concern could be that it requires time and confusion on this model counting.

    On the other hand: Is it so flavourful at all? Do the Orcs of different units like each other? Does it make sense that they improve each other, even when they do not trust each other?

    Maybe it makes more sense to simply limit this kind of rule to the one unit itself. Maybe this is better from background point of view...but what it definitively is, is simple. A clear and very simple rule:

    Green Fury (or Green Juggernaut)
    If the Orc unit has 30 or more Orc models, they get +1A.
  • arwaker wrote:

    Green Fury (or Green Juggernaut)
    If the Orc unit has 30 or more Orc models, they get +1A.
    I like it but 30 models is too easy to lose the benefit. Maybe 20+.


    Ok playing off the model count idea what about something like this (more refined though):

    Green Juggernaut (cool name btw)
    Orc units gain additional benefits based on the number of orcs in each unit. For Green Juggernaut purposes only, Orc units may add the number of orcs in units within 6" to determine their number. All effects are cumulative:

    -40+ models the unit gains +1 strength.
    -50+ models the unit gains FiER.
    -60+ models +1 attack.

    Ish.. you get the idea. Synergy based on the size of the WAAAGH!
    AVOIDANCE FAILS 28% OF THE TIME FOLKS. -SE
    Undying Deathstar Construction Inc.
  • I am in favour of rules that encourage larger units of orcs. I do like the green juggernaut idea but I think that counting models can be tedious, and that they should at least be required to be in combat to get the buff because as arwaker mentioned it should be somewhat thematic. In the past orc animosity came with competitiveness and the desire to out-do one another. Could this be embodied by simple buff if there's another orc unit in combat nearby that they need to "show up"? For example, re-roll 1s to hit/wound if there is another orc unit in combat within 6". This is a simple buff (and I think the simpler the better) but if you get all your units in combat at the same time it can add up.

    Speaking of buff rules, I think the rules should encourage big units in horde formation where some other armies encourage their core units to form deep ranks for defensive tarpits.
  • Slept on it and got it pointed out to me that the leadership suggestion I made is too close to cold blooded. What about failed leadership checks within inspiring preasence. The unit which fails the check takes the amount which they failed by as automatic would no armoursave allowed but gets to reroll their LD check with +1 LD (this could be the games only instance of a LD 11 instance)
    this would make the bsb upgrade obsulete. Therefor I would change the bsb effect to give whatever magic standard you buy for it an aura effect "12" at a 50pts cost
  • Maybe it is innovative to combine two concepts to one rules mechanic.

    This rule that encourages large Orc blocks, and the warcry concept.

    How about this?:

    The army general and any unit with 20+ Orcs get the special rule Waaargh-Amplifier.
    The Warcry affects all units in 6" of any Waaargh-Amplifier.
  • Ok, let me quickly summarize:

    We spoke a lot about Born to Fight and Strength stat. We can agree that we are not able to find a solution that satisfies the majority of our community. We even have basic discrepancies about whether First Turn Damage should be a specific advantage of Orcs or not. There is a whole thread about alone this topic. Maybe some day we find a good solution.

    We have this Warcry concept sneaking around the forum. There have already been a lot of suggestions for it. I would include all suggestions for synergy between units and characters under this topic. In general I think most of us will agree to this concept in general, because the price increase will hit the characters predominantly and not the units. The is also a thread for this, but it is still very diffuse, because there has not been an official rule about this. I think we should intensify our discussion about this concept, to be prepared for Full Rework phase.

    And finally, what has not yet it's own topic thread, is the psychology / unruly / Leadership / Discipline section. It is a very important topic imho, because it contributes a lot to the feeling of our army. I would like to separate this topic from the two former ones, because it is only slightly connected. I will start a thread about this, please contribute to the discussion as enthusiastic and unruly as for the others :)
  • @arwaker as someone who's not "in the know" myself, is there a sort of proposed timeline for 2.0 to be rolled out? I assume that a "Full Rework" of the O&G book will not come at the same time as the 2.0 rollout because it's really hard to evaluate how things will interact. In fact, there will probably be a period of time where books don't see major changes as we try to evaluate how 2.0 impacts each army book, unit and the meta overall. I could be wrong about this, but could this potentially lead to O&G not seeing any changes for some time?

    The reason I ask this is because I wonder if there is one (or even a couple) small, intermediate solutions that we could pursue in the short term to the book that could improve some of our most hurting units but wouldn't be likely to cause a complete unbalancing in the early days of 2.0? I agree it's been hard for people to come to consensus on the forms, but even recently I've seen some very reasonable suggestions. For example, Sklodo's suggestion on the BtF thread that we simply remove the unit restriction on 'Eadbashers and increase the model limit to match regular Orcs. This would provide better access to viable combat orcs in core without a significant change to the book.