How to make O&G into fighting CC horde.

This site uses cookies. By continuing to browse this site, you are agreeing to our Cookie Policy.

The latest issue of the 9th Scroll is here! You can read all about it in the news.

Our beta phase is finally over. Download The Ninth Age: Fantasy Battles, 2nd Edition now!

  • How to make O&G into fighting CC horde.

    Hi guys.

    Recently I was thinking about meta, roles, and O&G identity. I do not know how will 2.0 look like but we can discuss and maby RT wiill find something usefull here.

    Ok so what is it all about. Aboyt horde themed army. O&G should in principle be horde army with two parts. One part that is able to fight (orcs) and second part that is crappy but extreamly numerous (goblins) and have some sneaky bitz. As far as goblins go thery are generally that. Cheap disposable (both R&F as well as characters) and stupidly numerous. They are good tarpits and can add some extra "special" triks in form of nets, Mad gitz and sneaky gitz. Orcs have problems but hopefully with merge with edbashers they would be remedied.

    Those are all nice and cool but as all horde armies O&G are typically (at least in my experience) on the loosing side in CC agains anything that is dedicated CC unit, especially elite CC killers. This is problem that a lot of horde armies face. Lets be honest in current meta no horde is able to stand its ground against dedicated CC elite unit point for point without some kind of help (magic, special rules, etc.) or a lot of luck. Why is that. Well simply put it is a question of numbers. Horde in theroy is able to compensate for lower skill/armor and so on by having higher numbers. And yes horde will be cut down to a man in similar times as comperable (poitwhise) elites. As someone commented horde should be able to take twice as many looses as enemy elites and still come on top. Unfortunatly with how combat rez works this is not the case. Simply put if you suffered twice enemy looses you loose combat and have to roll break test. Of course steadfast, IP and BSB reroll all help with this, but simple fact is you have to roll on it time and time again and whatever small there is a chance you fail eventually and have to run and potentially loose entire unit worth of points while enemy elite is just sitting ther smug and safe. On top of that mitigating risk of that roll is costly, especially in terms of setup (you have to keep general and BSB in range, safe and they cannot preform functions that would put them away from units fighting in CC - which can be very hard with more tan one cc on the board). This is something most hordes strugge but most of them have some mechanisms to compensate. VC for example have army whide unbrekable and magic, as well as ability to grow lost models back, VS have a lot of strange rules, toys, ability to keep their characters safe and ability to shoot into CC, and BH have both ambusjhes as well as totems (correct me if something changed in that regard). So do O&G have anything to help with that? Well goblins have mad gits and sneaky gits wich help with thinnig enemy or inflicting some extra combat rez to compensate. Still goblins usually loose even with that help. Orcs have it worse. Yes they have better stats but not to the point of being able to compete with elites (nor should they) but they are also more expensive wich makes them less numerous and unable to endur levels of punishment goblins can. O&G are aditionally even more hampered by our bad Initiative (and no way to mitigate it) becouse this means in almost every fight we can potentially loose some models before they have chance to strike. In case of goblins it is not such a big problem since there can be enough of them that last ranks do not fight either way, and lets be honest they role is not to kill anything. Orcs on the other hand due to lower numbers usually loose some attacks in initial encountes especially if they lost some models previously for example to shooting or magic (this depeds on setup and gear since for example spears are more prone to loosing attacs). So in essense we have little in a way of compensating for hordes shortcommings especially on units that in theory should excel in that. I am fraid no amout of resonable tinkering with stats and prices will remedy this problem.

    All this mean we are unsuited to fight in CC agains armies that are puposfully designed for CC. As army that should be at least pertially Cc themed that is kind of problem. That is propably hidden reason behind gunline and moster mash (limited some time ago) playstyle prominence. They simply skip the problem. But it is not how thigs should be.

    Do you guys have any ideas how to remedy that?

    I have two (well one is not my oryginal idea but I like it). Make rule (maby next verition of unruly that do little overall) that would half our losses for the purpose of calculating combat rez. Edit: Only those inflicted by units in front of the unit, O&G are not particulary good at dealing with sneaky stuff. That way if lets say my horde of orcs loose 10 models and is able to kill 5 dwarves back (optimistic in many scenarios I know) we tie.

    Edit: Second idea is that if unit of orcs is fighting enemy in the front and both orcs and their enemies suffer at least one casualtie player controlling orcs can decide that both units gain unbrekable.

    Now let the discussion begin.

    Best regards
    Sklodo
    Best regards
    Sklodo

    Retireing for unspecyfied period of time. Sometime I hate the world.

    The post was edited 2 times, last by Sklodo ().

  • St4 base Orcs with Born to Fight, Keep Ws3, in2 and maybe even consider lowering leadership to 6.
    Give them a "pass a leadership test to not charge" rule
    Dock Orc Generals Leadership down to a maximum of 8.

    There you go, now your Orc Horde is very powerful but isn't going to pay a lot per model.
    Plus with a lower leadership general you're less capable of just ignoring leadership tests due to the General & BSB being nearby so the rule to make the units cheaper actually has an effect and makes the units cheaper as a result.

    Core rules changes to help
    Remove the Horde in favour of the wider unit gains FiER, the 25mm base Orcs benefit hugely from this as they're cheap and wide.
    Change the BSB effect to +1 combat res for every combat in range so a low leadership is a genuine downside instead of the current situation where it may as well not be a part of the game when you're in range of the BSB and General.
  • I think that the main design goal for Orc should be, that they don't run away when they are having a good fight, even if they are losing (according to normal cc rules).

    I think Orcs should NOT have an advantage
    in winning and breaking the opponent. Therefore I pull back my original idea of halving opposing kills. Why should they? They love a good clash and are maybe even sad when their enemy runs away.

    However, the Orcs should definitively have advanced chance to not run away in a good fight, even if they lose it. But what is a good fight? How should the exact rule look like? In what situations the Orcs should have the highest improvement in not running away? How must a good fight look like in an Orc's eyes?

    I think it is necessary that the Orcs at least feel some kind of success aka killing something. Then they are happy, they feel progress, they feel being in a good clash, and they are likely to stay there. They do not consider own casualties as hard when they also cause some on the other side.

    Hm, how to pour this into a rule. Hm. Maybe like this:

    When Orcs lose a close combat and roll their break test, they can add their combat resolution value to their LD.
  • theunwantedbeing wrote:

    arwaker wrote:

    When Orcs lose a close combat and roll their break test, they can add their combat resolution value to their LD.
    You could simplify it to just Orcs add +1 to their Leadership while in close combat.
    just make them unbreakable, hell yeah love me some orc leadership lol
  • Problem with making them unbreakable is that we are (and I think should be) a Ld bubble army.

    I like the increasing Ld in combat idea, I actually had the same idea myself.

    I was gonna suggest reduce Orc Ld by 1. And replace Unruly with:
    Orcs gain 2 Ld when in combat.

    This make us vulnerable to panic, restraining pursuit, and so on, but better at break tests. You could also slap this on Orc characters, ensuring the bubble is still relevant.

    It would make Orcs outside the bubble a little more reliable when in combat and a little less reliable outside of it, which I think is fine.
  • Just an idea.

    Would make the orcs strengh 4 born to fight.

    In horde formation i would make a rule for commun orc that break redirection: they would be able to force the enemy to pivot on his center ( but the charge must still be on the same side that it was on at the begining of the turn) for enemys with less than 10 wounds exept large target.

    I would be fun and tactic and it would compensate for the biggest weakness of m4 hordes: redirection.
    But this mechanism would force to horde play and to pay a lot of orcs. The additionnal orcs after 20 would be slightly more expensive.
  • Simply increasing the LD if in close combat is not the way I intended. You increase the LD but his also affects those fights that I think Orcs would call "unfair".

    For example 10 Orcs fight a UD Battlesphinx. Orcs cant do a single wound but lose 3 wounds. I think Orcs consider this fight as worthless and they should flee with a not low chance. In my proposal the Orcs don't get any LD bonus, because they have no ranks and no kills.

    Other situation: 20 Orcs fight 10 Sword Masters. SMs deal 8 wounds (one Orc rank left) and Orcs deal 4 wounds. The Orca clearly lose the combat, but they consider this a good fight, because they can see the direct effect of their axes. They like this kind of fight and have a high chance of not running. In my peoposal they get +LD for the break test.

    Of course this is a very strong rule, and I think it should be somehow attenuated to not be op and make Orcs too expensive. It should not work when Orcs are flanked and it should be accompanied by a base LD nerf.

    Orcs should defenitively not get a pire LD boost in combat, because other tests (like combat reform) also use LD, and I don't think Orcs should get a bonus for them.
  • Ok some comments as usual:

    arwaker wrote:

    I think that the main design goal for Orc should be, that they don't run away when they are having a good fight, even if they are losing (according to normal cc rules).
    Hmm. Intreresting


    I think Orcs should NOT have an advantage
    I do not think they have advantage in that setup more like even gorund. How often do you kill more enemies than you loose models with greenskins if they are not VS slaves or VC zombies?

    in winning and breaking the opponent. Therefore I pull back my original idea of halving opposing kills. Why should they? They love a good clash and are maybe even sad when their enemy runs away.
    Still they would love to butcher some fleeing enemies :). But get your drift. I can of course answer why. They love fighting but do not care that much about what happens to their mates as log as fighting is going on, onb top of that that would also depict orky resiliance even more. It is hard to snad and fight enemy that comes at you even if you are clearly saugheting him. That is why I like halving lost models for purpose of calculating combat rez and I would like to support this idea. To sum up. They might be sad if enemy sucesfully runs away. But if he is caught and ovverun that have a blast :).


    However, the Orcs should definitively have advanced chance to not run away in a good fight, even if they lose it. But what is a good fight? How should the exact rule look like? In what situations the Orcs should have the highest improvement in not running away? How must a good fight look like in an Orc's eyes?
    This is interesting conundrum. I would say for ocs best fight is where most slaughter takes place. So basically when both side are suffering casulaties. See comment below this quote for idea :).


    I think it is necessary that the Orcs at least feel some kind of success aka killing something. Then they are happy, they feel progress, they feel being in a good clash, and they are likely to stay there. They do not consider own casualties as hard when they also cause some on the other side.
    I do not know. as long as butchery is not totally one sided I thik they are happy. So maby doubling enemy kills for purpose of combat rez would be more in order?


    Hm, how to pour this into a rule. Hm. Maybe like this:

    When Orcs lose a close combat and roll their break test, they can add their combat resolution value to their LD.
    In principle it looks good but:
    a) It does not resolve horde vs elite problem presented above. Orcs still loose combat and have to roll brake, it is just another way to mitigate how bad those rolls are (preatty good one at that) and still have 1 in 6 chance of breking regardless of anything.
    b) It contradicts our army dependence on IP bubble as orcs can preatty much fight on their own with Ld going as high as like 10 easy (witk Ld of 6 only 4 klls needed)

    @arwaker made some very interesting points and I have some ideas to turn it into rule.


    Basically Orcs love fihghting as it is so they are happy when lots of kills are scored no matter the side. So maby rule like this:

    Fight Fans - For the purpose of combat rez
    orcs count half of all casualties in the fight both their own and enemies (rounded up).


    What do you think?

    arwaker wrote:

    Wounds only, or their whole cr (wounds + ranks + standard +...). But, maybe only if not being flanked. Fighting to the side or rear is never a good fight.
    Oh defienetly orcs do not like those sneaky pointy ears. I would add this to initial proposition as well [Edited].
    Best regards
    Sklodo

    Retireing for unspecyfied period of time. Sometime I hate the world.
  • @arwaker
    I actually agree that your solution is more thematic and fluffy, but I don't think I like the idea of complicating combat resolution by adding too many modifiers.

    I like the -1 Ld to profile and then +2 in combat because it's the kind of simple elegant solution that I imagine the 9th age team are likely to embrace.

    I think it's even simpler than our current Unruly rule, so it's an (admittedly very small) step in the direction of simplifying our army in general.

    It might not be 100% as thematic as your suggestion, but I think it captures the idea in a nice simple way.

    arwaker wrote:


    Orcs should defenitively not get a pire LD boost in combat, because other tests (like combat reform) also use LD, and I don't think Orcs should get a bonus for them.

    True - so could it be reworded as +2 Ld on break tests?
  • I agree. Having a rule simple is also very attractive.

    I like the proposal of Orcs getting +2 LD if they caused at least one wound. I like. Simple and effective.

    BUUUT: This should definitively not be a pure LD boost, but rather only a buff for the Break Test. I do not want any bonus on combat reform tests (which is also LD)


    So, let us combine our suggestions:

    (1) All Orcs get -1 LD
    This has several advantages. Orc Generals will not be so much better than Goblin generals. And the -1 LD takes care of the unruliness, so the normal unruly rule could be removed.

    (2) If making a Break Test, Orc units reduce their roll by 2 if they are not engaged in flank or rear and caused at least 1 wound.

    (3) Maybe to come back to the horde improvement of Orcs. Maybe this +2 bonus can be increased to +3 if the Orc unit is in horde formation.
  • However, we should be aware that this kind of rule has a specific direction:

    - Opposing units with high Toughness and/or Armor (DH, KoE, WDG) could be able to avoid being wounded, and Orcs will often suffer only the -1 LD.
    - Opposing units with low Toughness and/or Armor (HE, DE, SE) will hardly be able to avoid any wound, and Orcs will often get the +1 LD.

    This change has a clear direction of making us stronger vs glass cannons and weaker vs tanky units.
  • All of this are nice idea but do not solve basic problems. Only Improving break test we have to take either way.

    arwaker wrote:

    However, we should be aware that this kind of rule has a specific direction:

    - Opposing units with high Toughness and/or Armor (DH, KoE, WDG) could be able to avoid being wounded, and Orcs will often suffer only the -1 LD.
    - Opposing units with low Toughness and/or Armor (HE, DE, SE) will hardly be able to avoid any wound, and Orcs will often get the +1 LD.

    This change has a clear direction of making us stronger vs glass cannons and weaker vs tanky units.
    Halving casulaties would help against anyone. Orcs would still loose against tanks but by a smaller margin.
    Best regards
    Sklodo

    Retireing for unspecyfied period of time. Sometime I hate the world.