Why I think removing Born to Fight in light of edbashers and orcs merge is a bad idea.

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  • Why I think removing Born to Fight in light of edbashers and orcs merge is a bad idea.

    Hi guys.
    Recently I have seen in several places propositions to make orcs S4 with rest stats unchanged as per orcs and edbashers merge proposition but with one very critical change. Namely removing btf. Argument was that removing one turn S5 would decrease orcs cost. I can totally see thought prices and to extent agree with it. It goes like this. We want fighting orc horde. To have horde we need a lot of models. To have a lot of models we need cheap models. To have cheap models we need to decrease their capabielieties so their price would drop. There is however problem. This line of thinking assumes that decreasing combat capabielieties with simultaneous increasing number of models will keep unit at relatively same level of power. Unfortunatly in my personal experience for unit with 25 mm base and orcs stat line it is not the case so I think it is wrong aproach for number of reasons and I would like to discuss.

    First there art two reasons I think it is bad idea.
    1) It would not imo fix problems orcs currently suffer. Making them cheaper at expense of combat power makes them more like goblins but we already have goblins and they cannot be beaten in price department. Orcs are 25 mm slow I 2 units they need kiliness to work.
    2) It would nerf IO. I feel IO are Okish right now. Not really elite but cheap enough to be useful. So nerfing them would create aditional problem.

    Now for my reasoning. I hope you all agree that simplier solution producing same resoults is better than more complicated and that it is better to use tested and working solutions than to device compleatly new ones that require aditioanal work to make game worthy, provided of course old solution had done its job. If we can agree in that let's see what is and was working in O&G core as we cannot think about units in total vacuum:
    1) Firstly riders in core had and ha their uses diferent in diferent adorations of the game but generally as chaff, objective grabers or chaff hunters. They are not very relevant to this discussion outside stating that btf removal would further weaken already problematic boar riders.
    2) Goblins. Goblins were overall decent from the start. Great cheap tarpit or bunker with adders nasty tricks. Diferent upgrades were at times problematic (like current forest goblins) but there always was a way to use goblins effectively. Recently many barrels I see feature incisingly numerous goblins in core. To the point were only orcs in the list are characters, IO and chariot crews. What that tell us. Well imo it means goblins are decent. Thy cannot fig but can stop enemy with sheer number of bodies that can be squished into decent formation due to 20 mm base and with right equipment can even inflict some serious hurt on enemy over time. This is effective setup and no matter how cheap we make orcs they cannot compete for that spot (well maby of we would made them as cheap as goblins... no comment).
    3) Edbashers. For most of 9th age with exception of last adoration edbashers were vastly superior to orcs. Despite only few Stat diferences and lower max number. Only recently with massive nerf to their max number they became obsolete as they cannot retain enough numbers to function with their minimal saves. Effect was not as intended increasing prominence of orcs but making both units rarely used for proper combat, putting even more emphasis on gunline like fighting style. Still why were edbashers so useful? Answer is simple unlike most infantry in the game they had limited access to S5 without nececity to suffer downsides of special weapons like halberds or great weapons. This was quite unique (wich is good in of itself) and provided increased combat effectiveness for the duration of btf. Wounding on 2+ or 3+ most of infantry enemies was massive.
    4) Orcs. For entire time I play 9th age orcs were meh choice. Taken mostly due to fact that core had to be filled and on,y one unit of edbashers was allowed. Why becouse they lacked S5 capabielieties. Even when btf provided almost constant buff to S4 they were secondary choice. So if they are constant S4 this will just create similar situation. Yes there will be no edbashers to fill role of core fighting force but people will just take goblins as they are at least effective.

    To sum up. If we get rid of btf we will be in exactly same spot as we are currently after nerfing edbashers to oblivion. No combat capable orcs worth taking in core. So core will be filled with goblins and occasional boar riders for objective grabbing. But if we leave btf and make orcs S 4 than we are in much better spot as while a little bit more pricey orcs are in fact much better at fighting. We are basically at point we're edbashers were good but with a unit that can function only slightly worse than edbashers with numbers larger than edbashers. And that is and opition we should go for in my opinion.

    Please comment.
    Best regards
    Sklodo
    Best regards
    Sklodo

    Retireing for unspecyfied period of time. Sometime I hate the world.
  • Are you putting forward as the central premise the case that cheaper S4 T4 orcs would compete with goblins for combat roles?

    I can see most of your points, that gobbos have a role and can tarpit and rank well, have tricks, etc. That boars are tricky and best discussed elsewhere maybe. That low I is an issue (although partially mitigated by T4 and sometimes armour).

    But if pointed correctly, and putting aside any internal balance issues with other orc units, I'd see very different roles for deep ranks of goblins and hordes of combat orcs, which I think is what is being aimed at. I don't think orcs could ever be cheap enough to replace goblins for ranks, but an affordable S4 T4 unit is not bad, especially if it can synergise with characters/magic/list building etc (I don't know enough about OnG to comment). Or do you think S4 is simply too low to merit going horde for the extra attacks?
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  • My point is that decreasing combat capabieleties of orcs (limited s5 particularly) works against combat horde idea. Becouse it decrease its capabielieties in cc. They are of course not goblins but decreasing their combat power for slight point decreas is way towards more tarpitty unit than cc. Of course S4T4 is nothing to scoff about but on itself on models with 25 mm base, I 2
    1A and minimal protection is just insufficient to make them effective regardless of points as there are limits on how low you can go with them. On the other hand goblins are effective in their ische and for their respective price so they will win competition and be taken in core instead of orcs. Historically we see that is the case. If something does not work it is not taken. And apatently S4 T4 does not work as despite affordable price both goblins and edbashers were preferred when btf was constant until defeated in combat so much closer to permanent S4.
    Best regards
    Sklodo

    Retireing for unspecyfied period of time. Sometime I hate the world.
  • I think you can't just take this one issue by itself without knowing the other changes that are happening (which obviously I don't either).

    So I would be perfectly happy with either S3 orcs and BTF, or S4 without BTF as long as certain other things came to pass such as;
    - 8 wide hordes for 25mm bases
    - Warcrys that synergies with combat abilities
    - O&G specific signature spell that gave some sort of combat boost such as FIER
    - Other changes to the core rules to make big units of cheap troops more threatening

    With these other things we would not need S5 orcs and actually it would be counter productive because it would probably limit unit sizes.

    If none of these other things came to pass then you may well be right but I have faith that our units of Orcs will be competitive even if they are not individually combat beasts.
  • sgu97bjd wrote:

    I think you can't just take this one issue by itself without knowing the other changes that are happening (which obviously I don't either).

    So I would be perfectly happy with either S3 orcs and BTF, or S4 without BTF as long as certain other things came to pass such as;
    - 8 wide hordes for 25mm bases
    - Warcrys that synergies with combat abilities
    - O&G specific signature spell that gave some sort of combat boost such as FIER
    - Other changes to the core rules to make big units of cheap troops more threatening

    With these other things we would not need S5 orcs and actually it would be counter productive because it would probably limit unit sizes.

    If none of these other things came to pass then you may well be right but I have faith that our units of Orcs will be competitive even if they are not individually combat beasts.
    You are of course right I cannot. If some substantial change to meta will happen (and they will prapobly) than my points are irrelevant, but so is removing btf or any other change we are discussing. I am talking based on data I have so for current edition. How will 2.0 work... we shall see.
    Best regards
    Sklodo

    Retireing for unspecyfied period of time. Sometime I hate the world.
  • I have the concern that S4 base and S5 first turn makes Orcs very expensive. So expensive that shooting at them is a real good option. So expensive that max unit size will not be large. So expensive that it will not feel like playing a horde army but a couple of precious glass cannons. So expensive that losing one unit of them hurts too much.

    I would rather have not S5 first turn, but would like to have cheaper Orcs, more Orcs per unit and better LD for panic and Break. S5 first turn is so crazy strong buff, it is so damn effective, if you sell it you will get so much in exchange.
  • I wonder how expensive a St4 BtF Orc would actually be compared to just a St4 Orc with no BtF?

    Currently they're 180pts for 20 and +12pts/model extra.
    'Eadbashers are 160pts for 10 and +18pts/model extra.

    So presumably both buffed orcs would sit somewhere between those two figures, especially since there's no reason to expect Orc Boys are also getting Ws4, which is in itself a fairly big buff given how it lets you get +1 to hit against so many things as well as avoiding being +1 to hit by enemies who are ws4.

    The mid-point of those two units would be 260pts for 20 and 15pts/model
    Is that too expensive?
  • arwaker wrote:

    I have the concern that S4 base and S5 first turn makes Orcs very expensive. So expensive that shooting at them is a real good option. So expensive that max unit size will not be large. So expensive that it will not feel like playing a horde army but a couple of precious glass cannons. So expensive that losing one unit of them hurts too much.

    I would rather have not S5 first turn, but would like to have cheaper Orcs, more Orcs per unit and better LD for panic and Break. S5 first turn is so crazy strong buff, it is so damn effective, if you sell it you will get so much in exchange.
    somehow edbashers were not too expensive in times where they were 40 max. And those ones would be cheaper still.

    theunwantedbeing wrote:

    I wonder how expensive a St4 BtF Orc would actually be compared to just a St4 Orc with no BtF?

    Currently they're 180pts for 20 and +12pts/model extra.
    'Eadbashers are 160pts for 10 and +18pts/model extra.

    So presumably both buffed orcs would sit somewhere between those two figures, especially since there's no reason to expect Orc Boys are also getting Ws4, which is in itself a fairly big buff given how it lets you get +1 to hit against so many things as well as avoiding being +1 to hit by enemies who are ws4.

    The mid-point of those two units would be 260pts for 20 and 15pts/model
    Is that too expensive?
    I would be totally ok wit that pricing. Also adjusting price is much easier than fixing broke unit.
    Best regards
    Sklodo

    Retireing for unspecyfied period of time. Sometime I hate the world.
  • 15 pt orcs would definitely promote a combined arms approach, although I don't think the cost is high enough to prevent orcs-only in some armies core either. However I think such a unit would likely be costed a bit higher. My guess would be closer to 280 and 16 ppm.

    That said I kinda like this higher priority orc. Take a look at dwarf warriors and even ogres core and its apparent that orcs are too far down the scale. Into near goblin territory.

    The middle ground for costs sake would be:

    'The great merger' aka all orcs become S4/T4 profile.
    Exempt units with ranged weapons who would remain S3.
    Give BtF, but make it an upgrade. That way you have the option of going bigger in the same manner as purchasing great weapons, but can keep costs down when necessary.

    Great write up btw @Sklodo.
    AVOIDANCE FAILS 28% OF THE TIME FOLKS. -SE
    Undying Deathstar Construction Inc.
  • Stygian wrote:

    15 pt orcs would definitely promote a combined arms approach, although I don't think the cost is high enough to prevent orcs-only in some armies core either. However I think such a unit would likely be costed a bit higher. My guess would be closer to 280 and 16 ppm.

    That said I kinda like this higher priority orc. Take a look at dwarf warriors and even ogres core and its apparent that orcs are too far down the scale. Into near goblin territory.

    The middle ground for costs sake would be:

    'The great merger' aka all orcs become S4/T4 profile.
    Exempt units with ranged weapons who would remain S3.
    Give BtF, but make it an upgrade. That way you have the option of going bigger in the same manner as purchasing great weapons, but can keep costs down when necessary.

    Great write up btw @Sklodo.
    Thank you good sir :).

    Optional btf would certainly be something to satisfy both sides propably. Not very fluffy but hey can't have everything :).

    I am unsure how I feel about S3 archer orcs. But since I do not ever use them for fluff reasons I do not feel competent to comment on the topic :).

    Best regards
    Sklodo
    Best regards
    Sklodo

    Retireing for unspecyfied period of time. Sometime I hate the world.
  • Making btf an optional purchase is very bad imo and goes against the simplification (specially for those who don't play our book) T9A has been fighting for. If I had 3 orc units where 2 have btf purchased and 1 doesn't it will lead to many errors (opponent charging one unit cos he thinks that unit doesn't have btf only to find out after that it does) or just plain cheating (it will happen) where the owning player will say "no this unit had btf the other doesn't. Upgrades like that shouldn't be in the game anymore imo. Btf as an option kinda feels like Eadbashers not being removed at all.
    :O&G: :VC: :KoE:

    Homebrew Army: The Lycanthropes
  • Sklodo wrote:

    I am unsure how I feel about S3 archer orcs. But since I do not ever use them for fluff reasons I do not feel competent to comment on the topic :)
    St3 Orcs who get bows seem a bit pointless since St3 Goblins with bows exist and are always going to be cheaper.
    Plus it's adding a brand new unit for added complexity within the army for no reason.
  • Odoamar wrote:

    I would like to see no boosted version of orcs. Simply remove Ed Bashers but with:

    4 offensive WS
    3 defensive WS
    4 Strength
    0 AP
    Without Born to Fight ( this is old 8ed rule concept, very unique ) rather than it, additional FiER when Orcs fight in Horde Formation.

    Something like this would be great.
    Basic orc have ws4 s4 and t4, no Born to Fight. Nice profile, true, but it suffers from low initiative and low armour. Only protection is t4 which is more often than not not enough.

    I would however leave Born to Fight as Iron Orc unique special rule, as removing this rule from them would nerf then unnecessarily.

    This change would allow to remove two units of eadbashers (foot and mounted) which are bloating the book.
  • Baldin wrote:

    Making btf an optional purchase is very bad imo and goes against the simplification (specially for those who don't play our book) T9A has been fighting for. If I had 3 orc units where 2 have btf purchased and 1 doesn't it will lead to many errors (opponent charging one unit cos he thinks that unit doesn't have btf only to find out after that it does) or just plain cheating (it will happen) where the owning player will say "no this unit had btf the other doesn't. Upgrades like that shouldn't be in the game anymore imo. Btf as an option kinda feels like Eadbashers not being removed at all.
    Well complication argument is defienetly valid one.

    DeBelial wrote:

    Odoamar wrote:

    I would like to see no boosted version of orcs. Simply remove Ed Bashers but with:

    4 offensive WS
    3 defensive WS
    4 Strength
    0 AP
    Without Born to Fight ( this is old 8ed rule concept, very unique ) rather than it, additional FiER when Orcs fight in Horde Formation.
    Something like this would be great.
    Basic orc have ws4 s4 and t4, no Born to Fight. Nice profile, true, but it suffers from low initiative and low armour. Only protection is t4 which is more often than not not enough.

    I would however leave Born to Fight as Iron Orc unique special rule, as removing this rule from them would nerf then unnecessarily.

    This change would allow to remove two units of eadbashers (foot and mounted) which are bloating the book.
    actually even with born to fight merge is totally possible orcs would only gain +1 S retain rest of the current stats and btf, than remove edbashers and voila.
    Best regards
    Sklodo

    Retireing for unspecyfied period of time. Sometime I hate the world.
  • Baldin wrote:

    Making btf an optional purchase is very bad imo and goes against the simplification (specially for those who don't play our book) T9A has been fighting for. If I had 3 orc units where 2 have btf purchased and 1 doesn't it will lead to many errors (opponent charging one unit cos he thinks that unit doesn't have btf only to find out after that it does) or just plain cheating (it will happen) where the owning player will say "no this unit had btf the other doesn't. Upgrades like that shouldn't be in the game anymore imo. Btf as an option kinda feels like Eadbashers not being removed at all.
    Well said and point taken. So BtF either stays on every orc or is removed from every orc.
    Perhaps those S4 spear orcs don't need S5 for every fight anyway which keeps the cost aff(h)ord(e)able.
    But, there are times when it would really be welcome. Therefore maybe it should be triggered once per game by the WAAARGH!: +1 strength, +1 move, +SS.
    Costed as below..

    Sklodo wrote:

    So lets say something along the lines of 200 for 20 S 4 orcs with extra models for 12p and 3p per model btf upgrade. What do you think?
    AVOIDANCE FAILS 28% OF THE TIME FOLKS. -SE
    Undying Deathstar Construction Inc.