Consolidated SE Community Feedback to 2.0 changes

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  • @mamut1986 (and anyone else)

    I will try to add proposals / things that seem to go with the community consensus, as long as they are concise and don't make the OP too cluttered to read. I've only added very specifically worded proposals for the Hereditary so far - too many for lots of different things might become cumbersome, I'll see how it goes. Maybe I should have reserved a second post for that. Might not happen instantly. If they don't fit easily if you put them in this thread anyway its a convenient place for people to see them anyhow :)

    Data Analysis

  • I had a weird idea for the hereditary. Sylvan elves are supposed to have pretty much unmatched mobility, and the fluff reflects it in the magic they use to quickly travel from one place to the other. Furthermore, in game they depend on forest for protection (cover), synergy with Light Troops, countering Steadfast, turning all forests into DT, or even Treesinging. I think it would also be nice if the hereditary introduced something that is unique to the army and that can't be mimicked by anyone else.

    Mist Strider

    Universal, Instant

    6+, 12'', rep: Target allied unit wholly inside a Forest can be removed from the table and placed again wholly inside of a Forest and more than 1'' away from any other unit.
    10+, Unlimited range: If there are less than 3 Forests on the Battlefield you may place a single Forest anywhere on it, as long as it is more than 1'' away from any unit or existing Terrain Feature, and more than 6'' away from any Objective.

    So what does this provide?
    1. mobility, acting like an improved Mirror.
    2. interference by placing one or two forests where you want, which you can then move with Treesinging.
    3. provides more forests to allow the army to take advantage of the forest enabled special rules the army focuses on.
    4. counterplay for the opponent and a reason for him to send troops into the forests.
  • So here are my proposals about our beloved 2.0 book. Please note that I am not saying all of them should be included at once. I hope it's obvious.

    Army Special Rules:

    Forest Walker (reroll to-wound rolls of ‘1’ in first Close Combat in Forest) +1 Magic Resist for a unit completely in forest. OR an additional dice for march tests rolls.

    Comment: With a change to MR rule (+1 to cast against a unit with this rule) that would be a good exchange for loosing a channel in forests. Fluff - forest should be a sanctuary for us, giving a little more protection against harmful magic. We're mostly t3/flammable units so giving so little magic defensive against mostly fire wouldn't be OP in my eyes.

    Independence in marching tests should be vital for guerilla warfare army like wood elves.

    Kindreds / Aspects of Nature

    Toxic Spores (name WIP) - Dryad champions gains "Leader of the Pack rule".
    Entwined Roots - First among the Equals kindred (name WIP) - +1 Movement, Vanguard. Chieftain only. 0-1 Choice

    Comment: Since it's probably impossible to get new kindred maybe we can remove Entwined roots, granting Thicket Beasts base str 5, leaving AP 2 and giving requested vanguard kindred. Giving "Chieftain only" is both game and fluff wise, since only Forest Prince is suppose to lead Sylvan Elves army and it could be broken to deliver killy prince in a flank along with big vanguarding unit of forest rangers.


    Druid: + 1 leadership / mounts out of FoF category. Or at least give him light troops, so units he joins dont lose their abilities.

    Unicorn - Druid only, remove thunderous charge, give 2 Magic Ressistance 6" aura. Cant join any units and cannot be joined by any characters. 0-1 choice.


    Dryads - Leader of the Pack rule if not possible to be a proposed kindred.

    Heath Riders (my favorite idea) - split into two different units.

    With bows - counts toward Unseen Arrow and Core
    With shield and sylvan lance - counts only toward Core

    Comment: That would have two important implications: people wont spam BOWS units up to 45% mobile of FOF and 35% UA and we could have a normal light armored cavalry with shield and lance which isnt taken just because it's in FOF category.

    Thicket Beasts 5 str AP 2
  • Good list up there,
    i want to point out some other issues :

    - The musician paradox : Some of our mobile units (Pathfinders,Sentinels and solo characters) doesn't have access to the musician upgrade so that means that they test to march at -1 while being within 8" from an enemy unit with it, this is especially damaging with the archers who test at 7 and the shapeshifter who lose 12" of movement.
    Not an outstanding issue but still an annoying one.

    - Druids joining units : i don't think that the druid have good units to join, i'll make a list :
    - Sylvan archers : Ok if they are in the back lines, don't use their movement, don't use their scoring potential and don't try to go in short range, but then the druid is far from everything else; still vunerable to many ambusher and fast unit but our army can deal with this problem somewhat efficiently.
    - Forest Guard : Ok but risky since they are D8, very vunerable to shooting and not likely to win combats unless against other core units, also put a big target on them since they are already scoring and easy to kill
    - Heath Riders : I don't think i need to explain why
    - Sylvan Sentinels : Actually a somewhat fine to unit to be fielded in
    - Pathfiders : They want to be close to the enemy and a magic missile will destroy an astonishing amount of points.
    - Rangers : They want to be in the enemy face and they face strong enemies, they also lose Adv6 and the possibility of vanguard
    - Wardancers : Nope, they want to be in combat and close to the enemy, magic missile destroy everithing
    - Wild Huntsmen : Okay that was a joke
    - Maiden : Lose light troops
    - Solo mounted druid : fragile, D8(7 for marching), count in FoF, its a panic bomb

    Some of this can change if our druids will have access to good protection in cc, but since this is not even allowed to our fighty characters i wouldn't count on it.
    I hate having to do comparison with the Hig Elves but look at their options reganding mage protections.

    Regarding FoF allowance i would point out that is bad design having units(which compose half of our army) and characters in the same category.
  • Well written @Hachiman Taro. I agree on every single account.

    The only thing i have to add is that I think the hereditary spell should be reworked from the ground up.

    It looks ok in a vacuum, but once we get ran over by KoE knights rerolling ones or a block of -1 to wound OK tribesmen, then I think we will be better understand the power level gap between hereditary spells.

    At this point I would just prefer a straight up super powerful missile like the Amber Spear of yesteryear. It would add more value and still fit within our ASAW
  • Consolidated SE Community Feedback to 2.0 changes

    This is my personal feedback for beta SE changes. I will include comments on Maidens and Druids this weekend.

    Type A
    Type A redesign slots are the part I'm not convinced of. The general problem is I think changes are to minimal to have an impact.

    They aren't bad, but they lost bodyguard to gain m6/vanguard. Good idea, even if minimal, but if I can understand Vanguarding characters can be a problem, I see it as a major design flaw that they can't use m6 they pay for with a character. Could be given a the unit special rule, or just freely add to Guardians Kindred. Would effectively be used only when joining Rangers.

    Eagle :
    The changes to great eagle seems nice, but it looks to me that it could have skipped bonus attack and gain Hard Target and HP as a balance change. Doesn't look like a redesign. Need to playtest him to see if he can be useful but not sure the army (and FoF !) as room for him. However in more casual play he could be fun if viable !

    Elven_Horse :
    Really nothing changed here because if you wanted a fight mounted character he was WH hence LT already. Also No light troop for druids is ridiculous. If it is too strong balance it with points, don't forbid it. Also Reduced MP makes it will be even less taken than it is already. Don't see the type A there.

    The shift to close range fighter/monster hunters is fine, but to that purpose most of their strength is poison/ap1. Sylvan bows and close poison aren't enough of an incentive to make players play not 30 inches away. IMHO, paired weapons should be mandatory at least, probably scout too. Also, I wouldn't mind a special rule to have an incentive to charge because I see no reason why I wouldn't stay in front of a monster and let him charge so that I shoot two times before close. I think a rule "can shoot when they charge a unit" would be simple and help a lot, while giving the unit a really unique role.

    Type B
    I'm fairly happy with most Type B changes and I would have mostly made the same decisions.

    Sylvan Bows :
    Finally it happens ! That is good. Consistency across the army and no more "cheating" magic arrows for our master archers, it's way more fluff. Really fond of it !

    Path.finders :
    I like these changes too. Less versatility, but probably a bit more point efficient when shooting optimal targets. Also sylvan bows makes them want to be at close range and this is good ! Wouldn't mind a multishot arrows so that they aren't useless when fighting against army without skrimishees/ht or heavy armour. Nice job on these though I will probably play them a lot the winter.

    Blade_Dancers :
    I completely approves removing scoring. It didn't fit them but skyrocketed their price. Nice ! However OS 5 is a no go, I hope it will change during beta or I won't play them. Also, the dance ignoring parade is useless and should be removed or replaced.

    Shape.shifter :
    This guy is interesting, he could probably do a lot of fun/original builds or attacks. I will also try him ! Don't know from a utility/competitive pov, need to playtest.


    Treesinging :
    I like it. It's fairly restricted and maybe not that useful but reliable and original. It would be awsome of it could be used during Movement phase, like forests where our units. Would permit a lot more movements.

    Hereditary spell :
    Not bad but clearly too weak. Small range, small magical move, no attribute. Doesn't pass compared to raven wings. It would be way better if we had full access to witchcraft, or partial including Raven wings (for maidens for example, which may happen) and a different spell.

    AW rule : The forests follows
    Seems weak now, and still very weak . A compensatory buff would have seems nice. I propose "Ranged attacks against enemies partially in forest reroll 1's to wound". Doesn't seems op (still cover, and situational) and would help to punish enemies in forests since we don't have old treesinging AND they will want to go in it because of new Treesinging.

    Free redesign

    Agi6 finally ! It's good ! Still hits like a truck full of bricks, but new frenzy will make them hard to move with charge bait marches tests. Need to playtest to see if it is a too big problem.

    Kestrel_Knights :
    Don't play them because I never found convinving models. Not fan of non-skirmish flyers, and a problem for people who already modeled them. Can see the need gameplaywise however.

    WH kindred :
    Not much to say.

    Magic_Items :
    I really like we have good magic bows, I'm really happy ! Also our banners seems interesting and I like tatoos. Would have like something more powerfull for WB's, but I find really cool it's a Sylvan Blades enchant. Other Items don't seems bad, but kinda accessory/forgettable. I don't see a wide range of user for Living bark, only shapeshifter. Without "Infantry only" It could be used by eagle rider, or maybe remove/replace innate defence, because it doesn't work with cloaks/guardians and armor doesn't fit SE. Or five it otherworldly ! Would be really fun and usable.

    As I said I will update for Maidens/Druids.
    All in all, some good changes and some missed opportunities. For units specifically I see a lack of creativity, and I think there is too much anti-synergie.
    However I think our shooting will be in a better situation now, but there still are many problems which I understand weren't in this update scope. I hope full redesign will be early enough.

    Edit. Hope it's not TL;DR. Feel free to discuss in General feedback thread.

    The post was edited 6 times, last by Serwyn ().

  • Serwyn wrote:

    Elven_Horse :
    Really nothing changed here because if you wanted a fight mounted character he was WH hence LT already. Also No light troop for druids is ridiculous. If it is too strong balance it with points, don't forgive it.
    Don't forget that mount's protection got reduced. Quite unfortunate for a Type A slot where not much else has changed.
  • Arrahed wrote:

    Serwyn wrote:

    Elven_Horse :
    Really nothing changed here because if you wanted a fight mounted character he was WH hence LT already. Also No light troop for druids is ridiculous. If it is too strong balance it with points, don't forgive it.
    Don't forget that mount's protection got reduced. Quite unfortunate for a Type A slot where not much else has changed.
    Yes you're right ! I forgot about that.
  • Excellent post @Serwyn I'm going to steal some of it to work it into the OP if that's OK. You express a lot more concisely / better IMHO. @mamut1986 I like your suggestions, but because they seem more suggestions than feedback, I think they stand better on their own. They have good visibility here anyway IMHO

    Data Analysis

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Hachiman Taro ().

  • Hachiman Taro wrote:

    Excellent post @Serwyn I'm going to steal some of it to work it into the OP if that's OK. You express a lot more concisely / better IMHO.
    Yes sure no problem. I was fearing I would not be concise enough to be read so good news.
    I would happily give you a hand for a final complete review also.

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Serwyn ().

  • Iylankano wrote:

    @Hachiman Taro would you please consider adding the removal of forest related restrictions to the new 'distracting charge' banner?

    Iylankano wrote:

    @Hachiman Taro would you please consider adding the removal of forest related restrictions to the new 'distracting charge' banner?
    I will. Was just waiting until I felt there was enough feedback on the recent items for a consensus to make a magic items section. Prob in the next 24 hours.

    Data Analysis

  • Ok since this is a ways out heres some more specific thoughts on scoring and a couple more suggestions too.

    Scoring units:
    heath riders- * ** *** see below
    forest guard

    dryads- both
    thicket beasts
    treefather ancient- general

    *consider restricting bow riders to X models. My gut says start at 24-30 max.
    **add entry: lose shields to gain light troops and scoring. Maximum 15 models/army.
    ***Change ambush to have a maximum such as 15 for example (these are all unless everyone just likes doing busted things)

    First, consider this doesn't mean max 15 heath riders. It means max 3 units of up to 15 each same as now. Of those up to 15 can score in any combo within the limit. And up to 15 non scoring can ambush up to the limit. And between the two a maximum of X with bows can be taken. This would still allow all cavalry armies for those who like that (I do) without breaking something.
    Currently sylvan bow riders certainly do break something. It also means we would have the most versatile light cavalry section in the game:

    -medium cavalry for bunkering an scoring
    -light cavalry with bows for multi purpose and scoring
    -full fast cavalry with bows for more multi purpose and ambush non-scoring

    Overall these changes -or similar- would control shooting spam by virtue of losing scoring from SA and limiting bow riders which we are about to find are a little good when spammed and ambushed.

    This I would prefer rather than limiting by complex category restrictions which can then be loosened. And instead this emphasizes more traditional SE units AND forest spirits as the main scoring of the book (all spirits can score) while still resulting in less block infantry being mandatory than current due to light troops scoring and not archers. You want blocks play the other elves. Only joking. Sorta.
    The expected result would be a bit broader list design, easier to write lists (see below) and possibly less shooting due to UA competing quite well with SA now and SA losing scoring, and less bow riders.

    Yes bow riders are mobile scoring. Instead of scoring heavy cavalry we get LT. However also consider they have half the firepower and staying power of SA, plus these secondaries: king of the hill (can't score), gold diggers (can't march), hold the ground (can't survive centerfield each turn), capture the flag (actually a liability here) and what they really provide is scoring-lite on a chaff platform meaning a short life expectancy in exchange for a utility unit.

    Fleet of foot
    Do not count the riders towards FoF allowance. Give us the same treatment as others.
    Remove shield riders and wild huntsmen from FoF. This being one hidden benefit of shield riders for mounted lists.

    Move blade dancers to special.
    This category is nearly empty while FoF is too crowded. Non scoring blade dancers don't out compete scoring rangers or scoring thickets.

    Characters and mounts
    Druid add: light armour to allow access to magic armour obviously, even the antlers.
    Increase BS to 2+ to make magic bows semi viable here.

    Unicorn add: light troops and heath riders joined by a druid lose scoring.
    The higher cost balances the additional mobility of the druid and opens up 2 new bunkers.

    Elven horse: bring back mounts protection (5+)
    Theres plenty of reasons why. Too many. Long story short you can't strip saves from this factions characters and still expect them to be taken. SE gets light troops the other elves get hardier bunkers (and LT if your DE).

    Forest spirit characters: allow more than a single upgrade
    If they are supposed to be equal to elves they need equal attention. No mounts no items no protection slower limited units to join etc etc.

    Magic items
    Sapling bow
    make this S6 all time. It is already going to cost too much to be forcing a character to move outside of those bubbles to get value. Consider bow of elu will out shoot this guy AND it misses on 1s regardless of BS making it close to a single shot reaper in performance only much more costly and with a character tax.

    Distracting banner
    make this first turn distracting or something similarly less complicated and terrain dependent. The first time UD or WDG smokes your 'good' forest this thing will start collecting dust.

    Protection items
    Right. So lets create some that promote combat characters and doesn't take 3-4 slots combined just to get a decent save. Keep blade dancers in mind when creating these since they can't take armour and don't tie them to single kindreds or on foot only.

    Thats all for now.
    Undying Deathstar Construction Inc.
  • jeavent wrote:

    I have one proposal regarding the musician issue for some units, i know it's difficult to have new kindreds but how about a new kindred?

    Hornblower 0-2
    Units within 9 inches of the model count as having a musician.
    Why do we have to pay additional points and use precious slots for kindreds or aspects when everyone gets it for free? The solution is not to make things more complicated but to streamline them for every army.