Pinned 2.0 BH Beta Discussion Thread

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  • Jadeeyes wrote:

    I played my first game with BH these are my thoughts:

    -Gortach and cyclops: Swiftstride absolutely NECESSARY, is not possible to spend 500 points for a monster that charges with two dice.

    -The ld of some units should be upgraded.

    -This army is a close combat army, every single units are BEASTS, (beast herds is the name) therefore it should have swiftstride like DL, (they are beasts as well., always and not only while flanking or rear charging.

    -There MUST be a way to extend the ld of the general to more than 12" like some armies can.

    - The models for wildhorn are TALLER than a WDG warrior, strenght 3 looks like a joke, upgrade it to 4 at least.

    - Some units are a bit too expensive for what they do.

    - The longhorns, are expensive they should have AT LEAST armour 4+

    Im interested in your comments.
    welcome to the exciting world of goats :thumbsup:
    don't complain about them or they will throw stones at you :largegrin:
  • Idum wrote:

    I never could do much with my chariots, usually my infantry blocks won the game (i.e not that often :D)
    How do you usually use them? I mean, besides zoning which I don't see as an option when you invest in 10. And especially against elves with their 9" advance cav...!
    I used them quite offten and only when I regarded them as chaff I had some success. They cost marginally higher than single razortusk but that 4+as and extra wound counts. Damage wise they are fickle, without the +1 impact hit but still they can do the job fairly good as long as you don't roll horribly.
    :BH: :DL:
  • I have the same problem every time I use chariots. Usually I fail with them as soon as during deployment.

    Need to practice more. :)
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  • One important advantage of single chariots is that they can occupy a big portion of a unit's frontage, while your heavy hitters clip a corner. It usually makes up for the lost HP thanks to the impact hits, and when/if it dies it leaves your units in good positions against the enemy, where only one or two models can strike them.

    I watched part of the game vs Amit's daemon (game 4 on PTG's channel), and saw him pull off game-winning long charges. Unfamiliarity with the Beasts might have played a role there, since the Mongrels got a very juicy long charge into the rear of the daemons.
    But overall, a very aggressive playstyle with good board control. I guess nobody wants to get very close to 10d6 impact hits :)
  • Hi! I didnt post here because i'm french and i dont speak good english. I played Bh since warhammer and begin of ninth age. I played in tournament in France, solo and team. I won tournament, and i had good résults with in team tournament, but it's hard to play with this army.

    I played a list with 3 cyclops, big block of gors, 2 units of minotaurs. I don't play chariot because i dont like it.
    I like jabberwockie and it's'why I post here. Why not transform the jabber in "baby Monster" like chimère in WDG? We have 4 monsters and maybe its too much. But we dont have baby monster, we are "beast herd " but we dont have many beast. For example in wdg, many army have many mosnter or beast than us, i think it's not normal.
    Maybe jabber decrease at baby mosnter, with a profil similar than chimere and spécial rules like actually (breath weapon in option, and -1Ld juste for one unit), with a point cost between 200 and 250pts.
    With this rules beast herd play big Monster and baby Monster on the table, with chariot/minos/gors.
    BH is a good army but actually it's hard to play very agressive because many other army are better than us in many points or phase , because beast herd are not good armure and not good Agility to hit before others units.
    Maybe the hereditary spell isnt good too, many people dont get this!
    Just my point of view and sorry for my english!
    Have a good day !
  • arnadil wrote:

    Melitalia69 wrote:

    Hi! I didnt post here because i'm french and i dont speak good english.
    I think your English is totally fine. Not better or worse than of most of us.

    And I like your idea. The Jabberwock is not mainly about being super killy. It could easily become large instead of gigantic. But this is o course something for a far future.
    Is there a rough info how far in the future we can await the BH FAB?
  • Good to see the ideas flowing on improvements and possible changes.

    I would say that is a strong list of reactions from one game, i'd encourage you top play a few more and see if you still feel the same way. (But also note, no-one here disagreed with your comments, we would all like much of this, the drawback would be cost for it.)

    I would love to see us get more 'Beast' feel, although I can see the reaction if Gortach received Swiftstride.
    Perhaps to begin with we could see our monsters get the pack tactics rule and go from there.

    I also agree that the Jabber Jabba bird could be made Large, and fill a role like Chimera for us, and keep it's aura but allow the aura. Or just change the aura to work on the charge no matter the range. (Terror at -1 please)
    Really looking forward to March of the Jabberwock coming soon.
    For more from me : @Enchantedbytim on twitter.

    Milton Keynes, UK

    ETC 2020 - Scotland XX Player
    ETC 2019 - Scotland BH Player
    ETC 2018 - Scotland VC Player
    ETC 2017 - Scotland OK Player
  • I suggest, before discussing endless deep specific solutions, spend some thoughts on the background.

    Rules design as made by the task teams is very much affected by background concepts.

    When you have want something to be implemented in the LAB some day, it is very helpful and convincing when the suggestion can be supported by a background related reason.

    How is the BH 'society' working? What do they do for living, what do they eat, what is their everyday behaviour? What is the relationship between the different groups and to other factions? What is their career, their life path, their physiology? Where and how do they live? Are they ranchers, farmers, hunters, gatherers? What is their religion, their morale codex, their manners?

    Check what is officially published so far, and fill up the gaps with what you desire. And post it here to discuss. All this helps to find a common fundament for further more specific rules discussions.
  • @arwaker: Being a great supoorter and fan of a more narrative approach and of fostering the narrative elemts of T9A, I generally agree with you. But I don't think that these things are mutually exclusive. A proposal like "make Jabberwocks large instead of gigantc" does not need a reason in the background...and I even wonder what such a reason could possibly be.
    Most proposals so far are very generic (more infantry/hordes etc.) that fit very well with the general background as far as I can tell.


    But I agree that the discussions would become richer if we took into consideration the published and possible background. For instance, there is this peculiar aspect in BH background that they somehow worship statues and do not destroy even enemy statues. How can we model this into a nice gameplay element?
    Maybe BH can use some kind of magical items that are statues that are fixed at one point of the table? Maybe they increase the power of totems? Or maybe instead of a BSB, they can use such statues?
    Are Gargoyles really living statues? If so, how does this fit with the background? Are they the spirits of dead beastmen who are still remembered by their statue and therefore not really gone?

    EDIT: Maybe this can lead to a kind of buff wagon: A chariot with an upgrade (statue of an old hero) that gives it rally around the flag or another bonus.
  • arnadil wrote:

    @arwaker: Being a great supoorter and fan of a more narrative approach and of fostering the narrative elemts of T9A, I generally agree with you.
    Display Spoiler
    But I don't think that these things are mutually exclusive. A proposal like "make Jabberwocks large instead of gigantc" does not need a reason in the background...and I even wonder what such a reason could possibly be.
    Most proposals so far are very generic (more infantry/hordes etc.) that fit very well with the general background as far as I can tell.


    But I agree that the discussions would become richer if we took into consideration the published and possible background. For instance, there is this peculiar aspect in BH background that they somehow worship statues and do not destroy even enemy statues. How can we model this into a nice gameplay element?

    Maybe BH can use some kind of magical items that are statues that are fixed at one point of the table? Maybe they increase the power of totems? Or maybe instead of a BSB, they can use such statues?
    Display Spoiler
    Are Gargoyles really living statues? If so, how does this fit with the background? Are they the spirits of dead beastmen who are still remembered by their statue and therefore not really gone?


    EDIT: Maybe this can lead to a kind of buff wagon: A chariot with an upgrade (statue of an old hero) that gives it rally around the flag or another bonus.

    Very nice idea to counterbalance our lack of range for the towering presence, an idea of different mobile little bsb scatter everywhere on the battlefiled by ambush or vanguard mongrel raiders ;) - or all of our monsters with an upgrade of little bsb to improve our themed armies like the vanguard and ambushes, so as not to flee from the first panic test.

    And to stick more to the fluff/background, all x wounds done to the enemy in the range of those little statues/totems can be converted to boost our bound spell to cast them 4/8 ==> 5/9 ==> 6/10 etc.

    Or, all enemy standard captured give bonus to the unit that has captured it like an autopass for primal instinct ...

    Where can we contribute to help for the background if it is possible ?
    Casual french player who want the success of the 9th age in the whole world ;) !
  • Hey guys. Today I ve playe another game with BH.

    Here are some other thoughts:

    First of all BH originally were the nemesis of sylvan elves If I got this right. BUT the elves in the forest have WAY more advantages than BH. bh is only strider forest and mages cast at +1. End of the story. Maybe giving them more synergies with forests, like they are stubborn or they hit at +1 etc. something that really gives an edge in forests.

    Second PROBLEM: bh are NAKED. therefore the urge and need to support their resilience with magic. Druidism serves them well but at a certain point of the game this army has to start healing back wounds. Longhorn herd were DECIMATED by chaos and ogres charges. They fight very well, but they die almost inistantly. I suggest maybe a different armor options, or they chance to get some defense in some way.

    The totems are SUPER good, but the entire bound spell system has to be reviewed. the average score of 2 dice is 7, the average of 3 is 8-9. 4 is a joke, 5 is okay.

    Since totems are a real help for BH they should get an item that helps with casting bouns spells, cause they are really broken, no one uses bound speells in tournaments cause they cannot be cast most of the times.

    - Gortach is way too expensive for a NAKED monster that does not charge with three dice. I would like to suggest maybe to give him swiftstride and some bonunses to fight in forests.

    - In general the army is a fighting style one, with almost NO SHOOTING, therefore the variety of doing some lists is extremely limited. No forms of shooting makes this army extremely predictable and therefore the opponent is having no problems of knowing how to counter any tactics.

    Basically the army is limited to blocks of infantry and maybe one unit of minotaurs. Razortusks are strong but away from the general they are doomed with ld 6 or lower.

    There is NO WAY to extend the aura of leadership of the general more than 12" while other armies can easily mount a monster. There are VERY limited mount options for characters.

    The items should really help the characters more to do what they are supposed to do. Some choices are useless, others are never used.

    The army in general is expensive for NAKED res 3 or 4 infantry blocks.

    These are my opinions , can be wrong but honestly it feels this army need some attention. If not some real love.
  • This sounds as if Beastherds were not balanced at all. I love our army and I cannot see it having anymore need for love than any other army.

    That subjective perception aside: I cannot understand some of your observations: bound spells are not used in tournaments and they are brokenly bad? That is so not true. It is absurd to compare them to average dice rolls. The point of bound spells after all is exactly that they have no risk of failing, but do not have good casting vlues either. But to stop them without a greater risk your opponent needs as many dice as you for casting. That's the beauty: either you can draw dispel dice in a relative safe 1:1 relation or you can safely cast spells after your opponent has used all dispel dice.
    I barely see BH armies without totems, and I think there are good reasons why.

    I also disagree concerning the gortach and concerning a buff in forests: it seems very fitting to the background that the Sylvan Elves have actual buffs, because the spirits of the woods are with them, while the beasts do not get any handicaps in forests because they are used to fight in forests. That seems fine to me. In my opinion, Sylvan Elves should stay the best in the forest.


    But I agree with the DIS problem. I don't want to see our characters on big monsters, but I would like some way to increse DIS bubbles. The idea of fixed statues or totem statues (a bit like in WDG) could be an idea to solve this in a unique way. I could also see some kind of smaller Chieftain options: not a real character, but only something like an upgrade for the champions that gives +1 DIS. This fits well with my idea of the Beastherd society being a rather hierarchical fight for leadership. Some kind of corporal that holds the herd together seems fitting. Champions could have the choice between totem or DIS buff. It is rather fragile because the champions can easily be killed in combat, but it helps with ambush and so on without being broken.

    What solutions to the DIS "problem" do you guys see? And how does it fit in the background or your idea of BH culture?
  • Jadeeyes wrote:

    Hey guys. Today I ve playe another game with BH.

    Here are some other thoughts:

    First of all BH originally were the nemesis of sylvan elves If I got this right. BUT the elves in the forest have WAY more advantages than BH. bh is only strider forest and mages cast at +1. End of the story. Maybe giving them more synergies with forests, like they are stubborn or they hit at +1 etc. something that really gives an edge in forests.

    Second PROBLEM: bh are NAKED. therefore the urge and need to support their resilience with magic. Druidism serves them well but at a certain point of the game this army has to start healing back wounds. Longhorn herd were DECIMATED by chaos and ogres charges. They fight very well, but they die almost inistantly. I suggest maybe a different armor options, or they chance to get some defense in some way.

    The totems are SUPER good, but the entire bound spell system has to be reviewed. the average score of 2 dice is 7, the average of 3 is 8-9. 4 is a joke, 5 is okay.

    Since totems are a real help for BH they should get an item that helps with casting bouns spells, cause they are really broken, no one uses bound speells in tournaments cause they cannot be cast most of the times.

    - Gortach is way too expensive for a NAKED monster that does not charge with three dice. I would like to suggest maybe to give him swiftstride and some bonunses to fight in forests.

    - In general the army is a fighting style one, with almost NO SHOOTING, therefore the variety of doing some lists is extremely limited. No forms of shooting makes this army extremely predictable and therefore the opponent is having no problems of knowing how to counter any tactics.

    Basically the army is limited to blocks of infantry and maybe one unit of minotaurs. Razortusks are strong but away from the general they are doomed with ld 6 or lower.

    There is NO WAY to extend the aura of leadership of the general more than 12" while other armies can easily mount a monster. There are VERY limited mount options for characters.

    The items should really help the characters more to do what they are supposed to do. Some choices are useless, others are never used.

    The army in general is expensive for NAKED res 3 or 4 infantry blocks.

    These are my opinions , can be wrong but honestly it feels this army need some attention. If not some real love.

    someone who shows the harsh reality of goats and it's not me
  • Jadeeyes wrote:

    Hey guys. Today I ve playe another game with BH.

    Here are some other thoughts:

    First of all BH originally were the nemesis of sylvan elves If I got this right. BUT the elves in the forest have WAY more advantages than BH. bh is only strider forest and mages cast at +1. End of the story. Maybe giving them more synergies with forests, like they are stubborn or they hit at +1 etc. something that really gives an edge in forests.

    Second PROBLEM: bh are NAKED. therefore the urge and need to support their resilience with magic. Druidism serves them well but at a certain point of the game this army has to start healing back wounds. Longhorn herd were DECIMATED by chaos and ogres charges. They fight very well, but they die almost inistantly. I suggest maybe a different armor options, or they chance to get some defense in some way.

    The totems are SUPER good, but the entire bound spell system has to be reviewed. the average score of 2 dice is 7, the average of 3 is 8-9. 4 is a joke, 5 is okay.

    Since totems are a real help for BH they should get an item that helps with casting bouns spells, cause they are really broken, no one uses bound speells in tournaments cause they cannot be cast most of the times.

    - Gortach is way too expensive for a NAKED monster that does not charge with three dice. I would like to suggest maybe to give him swiftstride and some bonunses to fight in forests.

    - In general the army is a fighting style one, with almost NO SHOOTING, therefore the variety of doing some lists is extremely limited. No forms of shooting makes this army extremely predictable and therefore the opponent is having no problems of knowing how to counter any tactics.

    Basically the army is limited to blocks of infantry and maybe one unit of minotaurs. Razortusks are strong but away from the general they are doomed with ld 6 or lower.

    There is NO WAY to extend the aura of leadership of the general more than 12" while other armies can easily mount a monster. There are VERY limited mount options for characters.

    The items should really help the characters more to do what they are supposed to do. Some choices are useless, others are never used.

    The army in general is expensive for NAKED res 3 or 4 infantry blocks.

    These are my opinions , can be wrong but honestly it feels this army need some attention. If not some real love.
    I agree with everything. After switching to WDG first impressions were "Wow! This game is so easy!". Got a big increase in tournament results after that.
    BH are not a weak army, but it is a very skill based army. You need to think perfectly about each your step during the game or you will be be punished heavily.
    And some tools really don't work.
    Swiftstride on flank charges? Wasn't useful in any meaningful moment for three years.
    Any totem except for Black Wing? The same.
    Hereditary spell? Not even once.
    Terrain interaction? Forest strider is the only thing. Dropped even Seed of the Dark Forest in the end because you don't need it when playing a heavily offensive army.
    And if you're not playing mass minos and gortachs your main task during the game is to get each of your units in the general's inspiring presence at each period of time which is really hard because of 12" range and offensive nature of this army.