The "Sea Elves" brainstorming thread

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    • The "Sea Elves" brainstorming thread

      With GW releasing those beautiful minis in about 2 weeks, I think it's time to start thinking about any homebrew that will make use of them.

      T9A has 3 elven armies already, and I think none of them can be played as a grinder (ok, maybe the tree spirits army, but that's hardly elven).

      What I would like to design is an army that is very resilient and wins by forcing a confrontation where It is strong. Conceptually, that is similar to dwarves (let's ignore the actual execution, shall we?): they have grindy infantry that can outlast enemies in combat without breaking, and they enforce this scenario with the ranged weapons they have.

      Elves don't usually have heavy ranged fire except for bolt throwers (which I think are available to those new models), but they do have magic which can cover part of this trait.

      A mechanic I'd like to explore is management of a resource which can buff ranged offense or melee defense. The player would start with a strong ranged threat and shift towards melee once his small combat blocks reach the enemy units.

      Your thoughts?
    • While I agree the models are fantastic, I'm not entirely sure they fit the idea you want them to. They aren't particularly heavily armoured, at least no more so than HbE, and they don't look to have particularly great ranged weaponry (all I saw were Bows on the Eyeless fella's and an artillery bolt thrower on the Sharks). What is unique about them is their score of mounted models, and while mounted models have always been known for good armour I'd hesitate to say they are good at grinding.

      Maybe you're seeing something different about them than I am. If I were to make a homebrew I'd simply make them an auxillary force, using modified versions of already existing units. Those Atlantian Eel riders? Kestral Knights with heavy armour. The Shark gunner? A Skysloop that can swap the Hawk for a slower but more combat happy Shark beast. The Uni-Drago-Seahorse rules would just be a Griffon without LR but with armour +1.

      I think you'd have more fun coming up with a unique army special rule, equipment, special equipment and maybe 3/4 new units (Like the Turtle Beast has no Ninth age counterpart) and reusing some tweak profiles already in the game then going through the trouble of remaking everything.
    • I think that if you give them offensive bonuses, they are going to turn out like the other elves - killy and fragile. I'd avoid stuff that increases their damage output and focus on things that either decrease the damage they take, or make their own output steady and reliable.

      Actually I was thinking not to give them real armor, but work it out with things like penalties to wound them, innate armor and regen. It's quite easy to calculate values so that an Attack has a certain probability to wound. My first draft aimed for the same survivability of a dwarf warrior, for example.

      As for the flying fish, I'd make them spirits from the Veil. It justifies the fact that they fly - they actually swim in a sea that mortal eyes can't see.
      If you give the eels some Grinding Attacks to represent electric discharges, they can be grindy, no?

      I also looked at that guy with a hook - he's quite heavily armored. Same for the octopus dude.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Vetril ().

    • A quick post - I ran some numbers today.
      Res 3 with reroll to wound + Regen 5+ is roughly equal to Res 4 + AS 4+ against Str3/AP0, Str4/AP1, Str5/AP2.
      It performs better as the AP value grows (obviously) due to Regen, but it seems a tradeoff to me as then it's weak to Flaming attacks. Actually, Flaming attacks might completely shut down such a statline, so it might need a tweak.

      I can post a draft for a generic sea elf later, but imho Res 3 with reroll to wound + Regen 5+ seems a solid defense.


    • I tried comparing 10 of these guys to 10 dwarf clan warriors.

      The elves end up losing against dwarf clansmen due to the Aegis save from Shield Wall.
      Chaos Warriors wipe them due to the number of Attacks.
      Gonna try with some others tomorrow.

      Do you think these guys are tanky enough?


      Also, a background idea: since these elves have a rune mark on their forehead, no eyes and a metal collar, they could be some kind of mortals possessed by spirits. That would also give us more freedom with their stats - swap Regen for Aegis, justify a few other things.
    • Vetril wrote:



      I tried comparing 10 of these guys to 10 dwarf clan warriors.

      The elves end up losing against dwarf clansmen due to the Aegis save from Shield Wall.
      Chaos Warriors wipe them due to the number of Attacks.
      Gonna try with some others tomorrow.

      Do you think these guys are tanky enough?


      Also, a background idea: since these elves have a rune mark on their forehead, no eyes and a metal collar, they could be some kind of mortals possessed by spirits. That would also give us more freedom with their stats - swap Regen for Aegis, justify a few other things.
      Are they meant for being just normal Core units.. if so they should either be prized high or be reworked :)

      5+ regen and reroll all to wounds against them..That is some strong shite compared to the survivability of most cores in the game for now.. typically R3-R4 and 4-5+ AS..
    • I had actually started with Regen 6+, but they become too fragile: keep in mind they have no armor save. If you do the math they aren't so impressive because they mix up the numbers in the dice while keeping the result the same. Sure, they don't care about AP, but consider the impact on them of things like Fire mages.

      I'll post a break down of various matchups later (as I noticed a mistakes and redid the math), but imho they are very comparable to dwarves - they actually win vs dwarves due to lightning reflexes (which I had totally forgotten to include in my previous formula). The margin is very small however, and any deviation from the average makes the outcome swing, so I'd say they are very similar.

      There are small differences or course: dwarves are tankier whereas these guys are killer (just enough to be noticed - we're talking about a 0.01 chance to wound difference, roughly).

      I also want to see how they behave against other elves, as they strike at AG 4.

      I agree that rerolling to wound might become a problem when you move to Res 4 and add good armor saves on top of this chassis (so eel cavalry) but that I have yet to calculate so I can't say for sure.
    • Math - 10 Tidal Raiders vs 10 Dwarven Clansmen

      Chance to kill:

      Tidal Raiders
      (1st round): 2/3 * 1/3 * 1/2 * 2/3 = 2/27 = 0.074
      (other rounds): 2/3 * 1/3 * 1/2 * 5/6 = 5/54 = 0.092


      Dwarven Clansmen: 1/2 * 1/2 * 1/2 * 2/3 = 1/12 = 0.083


      Progression

      TR 10 (-0.830) 9.170 (-0.747) 8.423 (-0.664) 7.759 (-0.581) 7.178 (-0.581) 6.597 (-0.498) 6.099 (-0.415) 5.684 (-0.415) 5.269 (-0.332) 4.937 (-0.332) 4.605 (-0.249) 4.356 (-0.249) 4.107 (-0.166) 3.941 (-0.166) 3.775 (-0.166) 3.609


      DC 10 (-0.814) 9.186 (-0.920) 8.266 (-0.775) 7.491 (-0,736) 6.755 (-0,736) 6.019 (-0.644) 5.375 (-0.644) 4.731 (-0.552) 4.179 (-0.552) 3.627 (-0.460) 3.167 (-0.460) 2.707 (-0.460) 2.247 (-0.460) 1.787 (-0.368) 1.419 (-0.368) 1.051 (-0.368) 0.683

      16 rounds to kill

      Divergence
      After 6 rounds 0.724 (11.8%)
      After 3 rounds 0.268 (3.4%)
    • Running both these guys and dwarves against 10 forest guards. Their damage output might actually be too high right now. It's interesting that they also take more damage on the long run. I think maybe I should compare them to WDG troops.

      I did think of the merwyrm. It could be the dragon for these elves, since all elves have dragons.
      As for a test book, slow down XD the minis aren't even available yet, For now I'm trying to establish a base troop with a different feel from other elves. We can build everything one step at a time. :D
      ----
      10 Tidal Raiders vs 10 Forest Guards

      Chance to kill:

      TR: 2/3 * 1/2 * 2/3 = 2/9 = 0.222


      FG: 5/6 * 1/2 * 1/2 * 2/3 = 5/36 = 0.138


      TR 10 (-1.518) 8.482 (-1.242) 7.240 (-0.966) 6.274 (-0.69) 5.584 (-0.552) 5.032 (-0.414) 4.618


      FG 10 (-1.998) 8.002 (-1.776) 6.226 (-1.554) 4.672 (-1.332) 3.340 (-1.332) 2.008 (-1.110) 0.898


      6 rounds to kill


      Divergence
      after 6 rounds 3.720 (80.5%)
      after 3 rounds 1.602 (25.5%)


      ----

      10 Dwarf Clanmen vs 10 Forest Guards

      Chance to kill:
      DC: 1/2 * 1/2 * 2/3 = 1/6 = 0.166


      FG (1st round): 2/3 * 1/3 * 2/3 * 2/3 = 8/81 = 0.098
      FG (other rounds): 2/3 * 1/3 * 2/3 * 5/6 = 10/81 = 0.123


      10 DC (-1.078) 8.922 (-1.107) 7.815 (-0.984) 6.831 (-0.861) 5.970 (-0.738) 5.232 (-0.615) 4.617 (-0.492) 4.125 (-0.369) 3.756 (-0.246) 3.510 (-0.246) 3.264


      10 FG (-1.494) 8.506 (-1.328) 7.178 (-1.162) 6.014 (-0.996) 5.018 (-0.996) 4.022 (-0.830) 3.192 (-0.830) 2.362 (-0.664) 1.698 (-0.664) 1.034 (-0.664) 0.370

      10 rounds to kill


      Divergence
      after 6 rounds 1.425 (30.9%)
      after 3 rounds 0.817 (12.0%)
    • I am unsure about what direction should be taken.

      If you look at the GW page for the Namarti Thralls (the base troop for Idoneth), they come equipped with little armor and great weapons. Their sculpt also has a lot of muscles, which suggests Str 4. That doesn't really fit a Core troops profile though. Should we use them as Specials similar to Rangers/Executioners/Lion Guard? These guys also seem to have archer sculpts.
      In that case, what should we use as core?