The state of ASAW after BETA

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  • The state of ASAW after BETA

    Comrades, friends, adversaries, louts from the last lane, lend me your ears and eyes - not literally!
    Some of you might have seen my name next to mostly incoherent rants about background, roles of our armies or straight up complaints. This shan't be one of those(I hope).

    With the second version of the beta implemented, I feel this project has gotten back some drive it seemed to have lost, especially with the first iteration of the WDG book that wasn't as well received as the current version. I sure take more interest in it.

    To start off, I for one, would like again to express my most profound gratitude to all the teams involved, sacrificing their freetime on the altar of internet backlash so that us low-keyboard warriors can have their hobby cake and eat it, too! Without your work, we wouldn't be here to share our dream of never finishing an army of miniature toy soliders. Thank you.

    The reasons I'm opening this topic instead of queuing it in one of the many feedback or general discussion threads are two-fold:
    One, I'd like this to be a collection of people's thoughts on the general direction of our army's ASAW implementation, and two, would like to give incentive to raise awareness on issues that might have gotten overshadowed by the grand scheme of updating the whole book again.

    I'll start with my thoughts on our first 5 strengths:

    1. Defense - Armour - voted 90%
    Yeah, we have lots of armour, very easy access to 1+ save characters and some units with pretty good armour saves, too. I'd say that this strength was implemented quite well, and that the obvious downsides of a widespread amount of AP across the board are temporary, especially after the S/AP split. Barbarians are the first unit I know of to do it, and I'm sure more will follow. In the end, this should turn out good for the army as a whole.

    Right now though, armour as a strength has troubles being worth the points we're paying for it. There's too many ways to reduce or entirely negate our 4+ armour saves in both close and ranged combat.

    2. Combat - continuated damage output ("grinding") - voted 86%
    WDG are now supposed to be the grinding army. Let's face it, it's not a gratuitous task to try and get this one right. It means that warriors/chosen/most units in this army want to be in combat for a while, where there superior stats and equipment will help them to overcome the enemy with minimal losses to remain at fighting strength.

    Partly, we can see this work. High WS, mostly S4T4, high number of attacks and a 4+ armour save by default sound like a good deal.
    Things like the spiked shield have been created, which is intended to make our HWS warriors/knights more desirable than their halberd/GW counterparts, as well as the mark of Gluttony, increasing the chance to wound in successive turns. Sloth is also quite good in this regard.

    Partly, there's some ways to improve this, still. I'm not talking about making barbarians more "grindy", as their low Toughness and armour will never make them suited for this role. It's more of a "how to absorb an enemy charge and still stand to strike back"-kind of situation. Lowering AP in general will most likely be a good way to increase the endurance of our combat units.
    Spears were mentioned, but for warriors, it's just not fitting in my POV. Psychotic murderers wouldn't prefer to stand back in disciplined lines, simultaneously pushing their shields and spears forward to repel an enemy attack; maces, axes, hammers and swords are more fitting as primary weapons.
    Special rules would help as well; as it is, orcs grind better than us due to their relatively cheap costs and therefore bigger units, +1S and aP until a combat is lost, even with a 4+ armour save. When there's 30 of them, even chosen have a problem to get through the whole lot, only with the heaviest of casualties. (two elite units, but ours is only 20 wounds and 200 points more expensive).

    I think this is mostly a point costs issue. Once that most units become cheaper, we can get more bodies on the field, allowing us to take casualties and still have something that resembles a chance to strike back.

    3. Defense - Toughness - voted 66%

    Our lords start with T5, most of our units have T4 (barbs don't count), and a good chunk of them have T5 already. I'd say this has been taken over quite well from the previous editions, and improved here and there. I'd like to see wretched ones with either S or Toughness 5, but the role of irredeemable models might be uncertain anyway...
    I'd think that the army in general is tough. Not that much to see here.

    4. - Combat - First-combat-turn damage capacity - voted 65%
    This is a weird one. When we're supposed to be the grinding army, how can we also be good in (our) first turn?

    Currently, there's three units that can actually benefit from this "playstyle".
    Chosen of Wrath with Great Weapons, Chariots and Knights with Lances.

    Chosen would work, yes. Chosen always work, kinda. The mark of wrath is specifically designed to be that, and nothing else - it also comes with a significant downside that ridicules the high DWS of Chosen(and shouldn't be that expensive once you think about it). They're also slow being Infantry with M5.

    Chariots, one-trick-ponies, but the chosen chariot can grind, too. Yay. (chosen chariot is pretty good to be fair, if bleedingly expensive).

    Warrior Knights with lances. I'm tempted to not actually count these for this, but they can have lances, so they're a first turn damage unit.

    The reasons why I don't like to count those:
    - It has been stated that WK are supposed to be a grinding cavalry unit with their 1+ armour save and our grinding strength as an army.
    - They have spiked shields, which only work with hand weapons. If they have lances, they don't get to use the shield's special rule in the second round of combat. And we're paying through the nose for this ability to not use the shields they've paid for in their unit starting price. For 10S6 attacks on the charge only...
    - their role is unclear. Bunker, flanking hammer or grinding cavalry. They've been shoehorned into a mix of roles, and they excel in none of them.
    - Great weapons as a possible upgrade. Why...?

    It is clear that the army lacks first turn damage, and it is clear that a good amount of voters in the community would've liked to see more of that.
    I'm not considering Barbarian Horsemen w/ light lances here. To few attacks other than to clear chaff/get into a flank to take away steadfast.

    Some possible solutions:
    - Wasteland Behemoth with impact hits
    - Dragon Ogres Feldraks with Impact hits(all three, as in 1, D3, D6)

    - Distinction between Chosen Knights and Wasteland Knights.
    Again, CK are the top-dogs in this book now, however it leaves the rest of our units in an identity crisis. Nowhere is this clearer than in the roles of our two cavalry units, one regular, one monstrous.
    While CK get to do everything well to an extent, WK don't. Mediocre at best. They don't grind with S4, they don't take out monsters/beasts with S6 on the charge only and their armour is down to 2+ when they use a GW(again, WHY?).
    Therefore, I think it would be wise to give the role of grinding cavalry to the Chosen Knights. In their monstrous nature, they concentrate more HP on a smaller frontage than WK ever could, while only missing out on a few(pretty mediocre) Kharkadan attacks with ranks.

    Furthermore, they can't have lances anymore. My proposal would be to give CK the Great weapons that WK have. While we can imagine a bulky beast of metal, fur or daemonic possession to stay in combat for longer, horses are pretty vulnerable, even with a casing of plate-armour.
    With the role of grinding cavalry gone from the WK, we could give them an upgrade to be better suited for their role as hammer cavalry/monster hunters.
    S5 and an AP of 2 in their profile could be something. Or a special rule that activates on the charge, or a way to use the spiked shield with lances(however, this wouldn't make their first turn damage better per se). Cavalry doesn't grind. Depending on the change, they wouldn't need a price reduction.

    Leadership - Unit's LD Independence - voted 44%
    Tough nut to crack, this one. There's certainly some sort of bravery before getting into combat with fearless, but we're more dependant on a BSB than ever(which is nice for me as I just build a new one, but you know...) when it comes to taking break tests. Hammer units with big damage output on the first turn will not only decimate, but eventually break our small to medium-sized units, sending them to run. While their shooting can whittle our bigger units down to bite-sized pieces, we don't have this luxury.

    Some word on the forums has been that Favour of Pride could be given as an army wide special rule. Might step on SA's toes a bit, since cold-blooded is their thing. Re-rolling break tests back in would mean that a BSB is often less desirable, which would hurt the army asthetically in my opinion.
    Simply giving a special rule to the major fighting force of the book so they can stay in combat doesn't feel right. It indicates that warriors always expect to lose combat and therefore need it. Increasing their damage output comes with a price-hike, and that is the last thing they need right now; quite the opposite.

    LD8 isn't much, either. For example, SE have a couple of units with LD9 who're supposed to act independently from the main force, such as Wild Hunters or Kestrel Knights.
    Granted, WDG and SE are very different, but it shows how things could be done.

    So WDG have a mediocre Leadership value coupled with fearless and re-rolling march tests, but still a mediocre leadership value when it comes to taking break tests with modifiers.
    While there is some sort LD independence, it is not complete. As a strength, I'd be hesitant to call it completely implemented.

    If you've made it this far, congrats! I'm sure as hell feeling it in my grubby fingers.

    I'd like to hear all yall's thoughts on the matter - do you see our strengths implemented? Do you completely disagree with my post? Are ya loading up your mod-melta because I'm mentioning Knights yet again? Am I asking too many questions?
    Who knows. Happy hunting and thanks for your time! :thumbsup:
    Moreover, I consider that the Seven Sins should be destroyed as an army background.
  • Here they are:…arriors-of-the-dark-gods/

    Combat: Grinding
    Protection: Armor
    Leadership: Independent
    Speed: Fast options
    Magic: Offensive, big devastating spells

    Weakness: The army needs to be below average in these areas.
    Small arms fire
    Strength in numbers
    Bubble LD

    Hard weakness/none existent:
    Medium and heavy arms fire
    Hex and buff wagons
    Special deployment

    "When four Kings abdicate their thrones, do you really have a Kingdom anymore?"

    I kind have a "blog" now: From Beer and Bretzle vol 2

    [ETC 2016 - ID] [ETC 2017 - WDG] [ETC 2018 - ID] [ETC 2019 - ID]
  • It is also important to read what that particular Strength or Weakness means for this army as its described in that post. Not all armies will have ASAW implemented similarly, good example could be Speed. While for WDG it means slow mainstay (Core) and exceptional entries with Movement 10, KoE could have more access to M8 and M9 even in Core, but no M10.
  • Again it was never told during the poll...

    I voted for speed thinking about the speed of our infantry (used to play that Movement improving aura banner... ).

    Asaw as it came out is just useless, just take a word, a %age and make it tell whatever you want.

    It was really unclear and most of us are disappointed with the results.

    Then I admit the work done is huge and starts to shine... Let's hope we get something worth it ! ;)

    DL / WDG Community Support