Injecting More Darkness into T9A Background?

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    • lawgnome wrote:

      Marcos24 wrote:

      @Squirrelloid How interesting the evil is, yes. I’d consider cheating on your wife an evil thing to do, but that hardly makes me want to read about it in a fantasy book, unless it leads to a war or slaughter of some sort
      For me, I think you could make a far more interesting book about cheating on your wife. Gore, child murder, war crimes, etc. do not inherently make for better fantasy. In fact, it tends to make it worse by its very inclusion due to the fact that it is VERY hard to treat those topics with the respect and gravity they deserve. If you just toss it in like grimdark window dressings, more likely than not you end up with juvenile garbage.
      A good fantasy story needs to be a good story set in a fantasy setting. Can you make a good story that includes gore, child murder, war crimes and the like? Absolutely. But you need to know exactly what you are doing when you write that story.

      The various Witcher stories are great about this. They have a wonderful setting, fascinating characters and monsters, and they handle all of these topics with the appropriate gravitas. It is a world with a grey/grey morality, but it focuses more on what it is that makes people human. One of my favorite quotes from the series is this: “He has two swords: a silver one for monsters and a steel one for humans.” “No, they are both for monsters.” The characters are all very well fleshed out, and they take their actions based on their history and motivations, not just “for teh evulz”.

      On the other hand, I used to read the Magic: the Gathering novels back in the day. They were full of death, mutilation, disease, and graphic depictions thereof (especially the Phyrexia stuff). And they were garbage. Hot, stinky, violent garbage.

      I think the motivations are more important to how good a story is. I don’t care about degree of evil. “We hate it because it is evil, and thus must be stopped” is a really poor motivation, as is “we are evil, thus we must do all these awful things all the time”.
      but that is still the human ideal, the viewpoint of humans regarding monsters and murderers.
      What about the monstrous viewpoint or yet further, the vastly superior demonic viewpoint. If daemons are just alien humans then whats the point of even having them? They need to be the great looming threat, because if not the actuall impact of their existance is sooooo small thanks to the inherited weakness of them being restricted to another realm and only having windows of opportunity to work from.
    • Kapten Kluns wrote:

      but that is still the human ideal, the viewpoint of humans regarding monsters and murderers.
      What about the monstrous viewpoint or yet further, the vastly superior demonic viewpoint. If daemons are just alien humans then whats the point of even having them? They need to be the great looming threat, because if not the actuall impact of their existance is sooooo small thanks to the inherited weakness of them being restricted to another realm and only having windows of opportunity to work from.
      Well, yes. We are all humans. When we are writing stories, they are for other humans. So if you write a super descriptive, gory story about death, dismemberment, and all sorts of other truly nasty things, those other humans that read that story are not going to like it because it is about shock for the sake of shock. Kind of like a 90's comic book, honestly.

      When dealing with daemons, we have something of a problem: how do you really portray the mind of something completely alien to you? After all, all the writers are humans, and most humans have a hard time figuring out how other humans think, to say nothing of otherworldly beings.

      I am on the opposite end of the political spectrum from my mom, for example, and despite our many conversations, I honestly cannot wrap my mind around what makes her think that that part of the political spectrum is not only correct, but somehow desirable. If I can't figure this out, how am I to truly wrap my head around how an otherworldly alien creature would think?


      I agree that the underlying nature of daemons should be that of a threat. They are invaders, and they are not coming here in peace. Their ultimate goal is to merge the mortal and immortal realm, which would result in annihilation. While there may be the occasional daemon that plays at being friendly in order to get something they want, daemons as a whole are here to kill everyone.

      But how do you really portray that in a satisfying story? You can't do it from the daemon's point of view, because then you just end up with alien humans like you say. How do they communicate? Are they individuals or a hive mind?


      If you can figure out a way to get a daemonic viewpoint that works and is not just an alien human, I'd love to hear about it. Honestly, I don't know how it can be done. We have no frame of reference.
    • Mad 'At wrote:

      Kapten Kluns wrote:

      Daemons does not fit in any of that, according to me they should not support any mortal faction but seek to destroy them all. What drive they have and what means should not be those of mortals, because when infinate resources are at hands what use is strategy or tactics? You simply pour on to suffocate the opposition.This is the big question for me because DL is 80% why im in this hobby. And giving me an alien human race would be lacking in so many ways
      The way I interpret the story of the Timeless Titans in the WDG book is that Father Chaos, and thus by extension the Daemons, have only one goal. To shatter the Veil and become on with Mother Cosmos. Before anything they were one and the Father wishes to return to that state. That is why Daemons exist, as suitors sent across the Veil to visit the Mother, and to eventually tear everything apart so that the titans can be one again. Though the Daemons are supernal, as are the Dark Gods which Father Chaos has allied with (or something), so they need the souls of mortals to sustain themselves and grow stronger, that is their resource.
      But why do they need the souls? To what extent, what means do they have to attain them, what are the behaviors of a typical daemon, how does it fair against a human physically and intellectually, how are daemons percieved and how do they percieve themselfs, to what magnitude does their power affect the mortal realm.
      How do daemons percieve other races.
      Do they look down upon them or wont they even aknowledge them.
      And how dark can they be.
      All these questions among with all other will amount up to what demons will be in T9A.
      And I for one hope to be able to attain my view and opinion that daemons are the big baddies of the fluff. And I sure as hell hope that a mere perverted and violent duke wont outdo a single daemonic individual when it comes to being capable to henious acts.
      Let daemons be daemons. The Scourge and fear of all, the corruptor and despoiler of all, the fall of mankind, consumer of ogrekind, ravager of orcish nations, pest of the vermin, lords of the wastes.
      And create interesting restrictions as to why they cant just reach out and take what they want.
    • lawgnome wrote:

      Kapten Kluns wrote:

      but that is still the human ideal, the viewpoint of humans regarding monsters and murderers.
      What about the monstrous viewpoint or yet further, the vastly superior demonic viewpoint. If daemons are just alien humans then whats the point of even having them? They need to be the great looming threat, because if not the actuall impact of their existance is sooooo small thanks to the inherited weakness of them being restricted to another realm and only having windows of opportunity to work from.
      Well, yes. We are all humans. When we are writing stories, they are for other humans. So if you write a super descriptive, gory story about death, dismemberment, and all sorts of other truly nasty things, those other humans that read that story are not going to like it because it is about shock for the sake of shock. Kind of like a 90's comic book, honestly.
      When dealing with daemons, we have something of a problem: how do you really portray the mind of something completely alien to you? After all, all the writers are humans, and most humans have a hard time figuring out how other humans think, to say nothing of otherworldly beings.

      I am on the opposite end of the political spectrum from my mom, for example, and despite our many conversations, I honestly cannot wrap my mind around what makes her think that that part of the political spectrum is not only correct, but somehow desirable. If I can't figure this out, how am I to truly wrap my head around how an otherworldly alien creature would think?


      I agree that the underlying nature of daemons should be that of a threat. They are invaders, and they are not coming here in peace. Their ultimate goal is to merge the mortal and immortal realm, which would result in annihilation. While there may be the occasional daemon that plays at being friendly in order to get something they want, daemons as a whole are here to kill everyone.

      But how do you really portray that in a satisfying story? You can't do it from the daemon's point of view, because then you just end up with alien humans like you say. How do they communicate? Are they individuals or a hive mind?


      If you can figure out a way to get a daemonic viewpoint that works and is not just an alien human, I'd love to hear about it. Honestly, I don't know how it can be done. We have no frame of reference.
      I've read fantasy novels with Deamons as the main antagonists. The deamons viewpoints where explained rather well and had some interesting insights into the mind of the deamon, fears, wants etc. I can't for the life of me remember the novels name, a trilogy Imthink,,but I will try to look it up at some point.
    • lawgnome wrote:

      Every army has some evil, every army has some good. No army believes that they are evil (which results in them committing more evil).
      Indeed. When strongly moralistic societies commit evil, they justify it by saying that those on the receiving end are the evil ones, and that they themselves who are on the sending end are just fighting evil. A common justification in the real world, where every society collectively tells itself a story about how they themselves are the good guys of the world.

      In addition, I would say, every faction should have proclaimed ideals and values, ones they sincerely believe in. Every faction should also fall short of living up to those ideals.

      That's one thing that made the game world of EVE Online more believable and interesting to me, how all the major empires have their own social consensus on how things should be, yet much of the time, fail to live up to them. The Amarr Empire has a religious ideology in which conquest and enslavement of heathens is the first step of a path that brings the heathens salvation. Most other people regard all that as fluff meant to justify racial supremacism and exploitation, a perception that's to a large extent true. The Caldari State adheres with extreme conformism to the notion that the good of the collective comes before either individual interest or individual freedom, and those who overtly break that norm are subject to massive retaliation from society. Yet, behind the facade, all kinds of skulduggery, corruption, power struggle and other self-serving behaviour goes on. The Gallente Federation adheres to liberal ideals about individual freedom, and how the proper role of government is to safeguard them. It also, more often than not, tends to jettison those ideals as soon as trouble happens and adherence to the ideals becomes inconvenient.
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    • lawgnome wrote:

      Kapten Kluns wrote:

      but that is still the human ideal, the viewpoint of humans regarding monsters and murderers.
      What about the monstrous viewpoint or yet further, the vastly superior demonic viewpoint. If daemons are just alien humans then whats the point of even having them? They need to be the great looming threat, because if not the actuall impact of their existance is sooooo small thanks to the inherited weakness of them being restricted to another realm and only having windows of opportunity to work from.
      Well, yes. We are all humans. When we are writing stories, they are for other humans. So if you write a super descriptive, gory story about death, dismemberment, and all sorts of other truly nasty things, those other humans that read that story are not going to like it because it is about shock for the sake of shock. Kind of like a 90's comic book, honestly.
      When dealing with daemons, we have something of a problem: how do you really portray the mind of something completely alien to you? After all, all the writers are humans, and most humans have a hard time figuring out how other humans think, to say nothing of otherworldly beings.

      I am on the opposite end of the political spectrum from my mom, for example, and despite our many conversations, I honestly cannot wrap my mind around what makes her think that that part of the political spectrum is not only correct, but somehow desirable. If I can't figure this out, how am I to truly wrap my head around how an otherworldly alien creature would think?


      I agree that the underlying nature of daemons should be that of a threat. They are invaders, and they are not coming here in peace. Their ultimate goal is to merge the mortal and immortal realm, which would result in annihilation. While there may be the occasional daemon that plays at being friendly in order to get something they want, daemons as a whole are here to kill everyone.

      But how do you really portray that in a satisfying story? You can't do it from the daemon's point of view, because then you just end up with alien humans like you say. How do they communicate? Are they individuals or a hive mind?


      If you can figure out a way to get a daemonic viewpoint that works and is not just an alien human, I'd love to hear about it. Honestly, I don't know how it can be done. We have no frame of reference.
      good and fair points, I am not that full of myself to claim that I have the perfect solution, all I can do is discuss it here with the other people of the community or take the step back in and participate in creating (my role wasnt in any way to produce tho..)

      To not make any assumptions about us having the same understanding of T9As world, no assumptions made of us having the same desired endstate of what a daemon is or preexisting thoughts about evil, moral or cruelty. I will freely wander between making questions and explaining my viewpoints :D .

      What is it that would make daemons so alien to us? The big answer for me is quite simple, us not understanding them.
      We cant understand them because we are holding them to the logic and ethics of ourselfs, as human beings without them actually playing under the same rules as us.

      Since we have this limitation as you say that both readers and writers are humans then maybe we need another approach? Since we cannot give the daemonic viewpoint since it doesnt exist, then maybe we should describe what is lacking from them for them to be human and what exists in its place?

      This would to some extent create quite extreme disparity between possible personalities and traits of daemons and might be percieved as too simple to some.
      But creating such simplicity might give the writers the possibility to do more with less.
      Similar to all pure angels not being too interesting since they are all the same but once looking at them closer the small difference between them can become quite interesting.

      You asked about how they communicate and gave two suggestions. What about combining them? They are individuals but share the emotional reactions of their fellow brethren with the strongest daemon being the leading force of the pack.
      This could create the legion like behaviour without going full beehive.
      This could later be used by writers to create stories about daemons seeking seclusion from others of their kin to maintain themselfs.
      This could lead to interesting internal struggles since power becomes politics since power literally influense.

      What should daemons be lacking compared to humanity then? I am not talking about being capable of since humans are capable of cruelty, rather what are daemons uncapable of or limited to.
    • Kapten Kluns wrote:

      Mad 'At wrote:

      The way I interpret the story of the Timeless Titans in the WDG book is that Father Chaos, and thus by extension the Daemons, have only one goal. To shatter the Veil and become on with Mother Cosmos. Before anything they were one and the Father wishes to return to that state. That is why Daemons exist, as suitors sent across the Veil to visit the Mother, and to eventually tear everything apart so that the titans can be one again. Though the Daemons are supernal, as are the Dark Gods which Father Chaos has allied with (or something), so they need the souls of mortals to sustain themselves and grow stronger, that is their resource.
      But why do they need the souls? To what extent, what means do they have to attain them, what are the behaviors of a typical daemon, how does it fair against a human physically and intellectually, how are daemons percieved and how do they percieve themselfs, to what magnitude does their power affect the mortal realm.How do daemons percieve other races.
      Do they look down upon them or wont they even aknowledge them.
      And how dark can they be.
      All these questions among with all other will amount up to what demons will be in T9A.
      And I for one hope to be able to attain my view and opinion that daemons are the big baddies of the fluff. And I sure as hell hope that a mere perverted and violent duke wont outdo a single daemonic individual when it comes to being capable to henious acts.
      Let daemons be daemons. The Scourge and fear of all, the corruptor and despoiler of all, the fall of mankind, consumer of ogrekind, ravager of orcish nations, pest of the vermin, lords of the wastes.
      And create interesting restrictions as to why they cant just reach out and take what they want.
      How should we humans be able to understand why a Dark God needs soul, or what it does with it? Its not like they are likely to tell that far and wide to everyone. The lure people to wilfully pledge their souls to them, and in return offer power.

      As for the psychology of a daemon, I again question how much we should really be able to know about it. If they are truly alien, these questions cannot be answered. What we can see is how the daemons act in the Mortal Realm, something which is described a bit in the Red Blossoms of Ithar. There a daemon of Vanadra is summoned through a father sacrificing his first born son (pretty dark stuff btw ya'll). The daemon accepts the pledge of the father, who runs off into the forest. The daemon then goes on to slaughter everyone in the vicinity. Afterwards it just stand still for a while, slowly fading away into the Immortal Realm.

      As for them being the scourges of the world, I'd say that is very much true. For the most part of the World Hymn the dwarves depict orcs and beastmens as being evil, yet all this pales when the Inferno is created and true hell is unleashed:

      "For devils cannot loyal be
      And all is lost in burning death
      With daemons free the world a pyre"

      Daemons that go on to torment just about everyone. The ogres have an awesome song about how they suffered from the daemons, until the hero Tsanas arose to combat them.

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    • T9A setting draws heavily from our own human past scattered among various factions and groups of the setting.


      Can you please answer me this :)


      Do you really need a setting darker than our own history?

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    • lawgnome wrote:

      Well, yes. We are all humans. When we are writing stories, they are for other humans.
      When dealing with daemons, we have something of a problem: how do you really portray the mind of something completely alien to you? After all, all the writers are humans, and most humans have a hard time figuring out how other humans think, to say nothing of otherworldly beings.
      This is not limited to the difficulty of describing daemons.
      same goes for Dwarves, Elves, Goblins.

      Same goes for T9A Humans, by the way.
      How can you describe what Aztecs thought about the Spanish invasion?
      How could missionaries describe to Inuit what Western civilization looked like?
      Now, think again about describing even such civilization as Human Empire or Equitaine.

      Let me paraphrase you:
      Well, yes. We are all 21st centtury humans living in a world where all sapient species are us. When we are writing stories, they are for other 21st century humans not knowing anything sapient than humans.
      When dealing with T9A Humans, we have something of a problem: how do you really portray the mind of something completely alien to you? After all, all the writers live in the 21st century, not in Middle Ages, and none know an elf or a goblin, and most humans have a hard time figuring out how other humans think, to say nothing of such foreign beings.

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    • Giladis wrote:

      T9A setting draws heavily from our own human past scattered among various factions and groups of the setting.


      Can you please answer me this :)


      Do you really need a setting darker than our own history?
      depends on what race you are speaking about, empire or KoE. No our own history is enough.
      Daemons yes, humanity should pale in comparison.
    • Back to Tolkien: Morgoth is not absolute evil. He is described so by those who present their point of view to readers as the narrator in Tolkiens books is not neutral. Morgoth is really a vain proud fool who wanted to prove Creator he could do better. The whole 'evil' is just a tool used by him. If T9A describes world from human perspective (which it does) then why not to apply moral judgment of narrators? If Tolkien wrote his books from an unemotional neutral stance they wouldn't be so engaging. As readers we easily accept narrators/characters point of view and experience story from within, sharing emotions with characters. Official press report on War of Ring would be just boring. So far T9A gave me no character whose perspective I could accept as mine and experience story from within.

      Injecting Darkness. Take Elein Reavers. I expect Background team to describe them by some eye-witness like a merchant or ambassador watching them from save distance. 'O! How swift they ride! Ah! how deadly they, true danger and beauty united so... hem, ho, bravo, lo, etc.". This is booorrriiinnng. And now darkness injected. Testimony of a lone survivor, former owner of hacienda somewhere in Virentia. Describes an attack by elven riders. They came at night, emerging like ghosts from rising mist. In complete silence they killed guards, overrun hacienda. And then they hanged everyone who was in there - old and young, human and reptiles, slaves and children of hacendado alike. They forced him watch everyone dies. And only then their commander has spoken. We have warned your leaders many times. This time our message is written in blood. Deliver it to your prince. You are banned from this land.

      And I really would like to have this written not as a document but as a narrated story. Why? Because the testimony ends here. And in narrated story you could describe how governor receives wounded hacendado. listens to his testimony and then has him killed not to spread panic. After he gives him official funeral... this is Darkness for me we miss.
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    • Kapten Kluns wrote:

      Mad 'At wrote:

      Kapten Kluns wrote:

      Daemons does not fit in any of that, according to me they should not support any mortal faction but seek to destroy them all. What drive they have and what means should not be those of mortals, because when infinate resources are at hands what use is strategy or tactics? You simply pour on to suffocate the opposition.This is the big question for me because DL is 80% why im in this hobby. And giving me an alien human race would be lacking in so many ways
      The way I interpret the story of the Timeless Titans in the WDG book is that Father Chaos, and thus by extension the Daemons, have only one goal. To shatter the Veil and become on with Mother Cosmos. Before anything they were one and the Father wishes to return to that state. That is why Daemons exist, as suitors sent across the Veil to visit the Mother, and to eventually tear everything apart so that the titans can be one again. Though the Daemons are supernal, as are the Dark Gods which Father Chaos has allied with (or something), so they need the souls of mortals to sustain themselves and grow stronger, that is their resource.
      But why do they need the souls? To some degree unknowable, although human academics might speculate on the matter. To what extent, what means do they have to attain them, As previous. what are the behaviors of a typical daemon, As previous, with the additional caveat that humans may suck at identifying 'typical' how does it fair against a human physically and intellectually, The second is certainly unknowable. What does that even mean to you? how are daemons percieved and how do they percieve themselfs Well, we'll definitely get the human perspective. But how do they perceive themselves? Unknowable. Alternately, "orangely". Of course that doesn't make sense - you don't have the mental architecture or the context to understand. to what magnitude does their power affect the mortal realm. Probably unknowable by anyone in the world.How do daemons percieve other races. Definitely unknowable.
      Do they look down upon them or wont they even aknowledge them. Those are human concepts. Not applicable.
      And how dark can they be. ??? Blue and orange morality. They aren't dark. They aren't really 'evil' (although humans probably perceive them to be). They're not even on the same morality scale.
      All these questions among with all other will amount up to what demons will be in T9A.
      And I for one hope to be able to attain my view and opinion that daemons are the big baddies of the fluff. And I sure as hell hope that a mere perverted and violent duke wont outdo a single daemonic individual when it comes to being capable to henious acts. If you step on an ant, is that a heinous act? Whatever a heinous act is for a daemon, if that concept even has meaning, it's not something that's going to be relevant to human moral concepts. What makes acts heinous is that the person committing them knows that they're wrong. Humans will of course perceive what daemons do as wrong, but that has zero relevance for morality among daemons.
      Let daemons be daemons. The Scourge and fear of all, the corruptor and despoiler of all, the fall of mankind, consumer of ogrekind, ravager of orcish nations, pest of the vermin, lords of the wastes.
      And create interesting restrictions as to why they cant just reach out and take what they want.
      Bold inline above.

      Kristian wrote:

      lawgnome wrote:

      Kapten Kluns wrote:

      but that is still the human ideal, the viewpoint of humans regarding monsters and murderers.
      What about the monstrous viewpoint or yet further, the vastly superior demonic viewpoint. If daemons are just alien humans then whats the point of even having them? They need to be the great looming threat, because if not the actuall impact of their existance is sooooo small thanks to the inherited weakness of them being restricted to another realm and only having windows of opportunity to work from.
      Well, yes. We are all humans. When we are writing stories, they are for other humans. So if you write a super descriptive, gory story about death, dismemberment, and all sorts of other truly nasty things, those other humans that read that story are not going to like it because it is about shock for the sake of shock. Kind of like a 90's comic book, honestly.When dealing with daemons, we have something of a problem: how do you really portray the mind of something completely alien to you? After all, all the writers are humans, and most humans have a hard time figuring out how other humans think, to say nothing of otherworldly beings.

      I am on the opposite end of the political spectrum from my mom, for example, and despite our many conversations, I honestly cannot wrap my mind around what makes her think that that part of the political spectrum is not only correct, but somehow desirable. If I can't figure this out, how am I to truly wrap my head around how an otherworldly alien creature would think?


      I agree that the underlying nature of daemons should be that of a threat. They are invaders, and they are not coming here in peace. Their ultimate goal is to merge the mortal and immortal realm, which would result in annihilation. While there may be the occasional daemon that plays at being friendly in order to get something they want, daemons as a whole are here to kill everyone.

      But how do you really portray that in a satisfying story? You can't do it from the daemon's point of view, because then you just end up with alien humans like you say. How do they communicate? Are they individuals or a hive mind?


      If you can figure out a way to get a daemonic viewpoint that works and is not just an alien human, I'd love to hear about it. Honestly, I don't know how it can be done. We have no frame of reference.
      I've read fantasy novels with Deamons as the main antagonists. The deamons viewpoints where explained rather well and had some interesting insights into the mind of the deamon, fears, wants etc. I can't for the life of me remember the novels name, a trilogy Imthink,,but I will try to look it up at some point.
      If you think the daemons viewpoint was well explained, that means they're just humans in daemon suits.

      Calisson wrote:

      lawgnome wrote:

      Well, yes. We are all humans. When we are writing stories, they are for other humans.
      When dealing with daemons, we have something of a problem: how do you really portray the mind of something completely alien to you? After all, all the writers are humans, and most humans have a hard time figuring out how other humans think, to say nothing of otherworldly beings.
      This is not limited to the difficulty of describing daemons.same goes for Dwarves, Elves, Goblins.

      Same goes for T9A Humans, by the way.
      How can you describe what Aztecs thought about the Spanish invasion?
      How could missionaries describe to Inuit what Western civilization looked like?
      Now, think again about describing even such civilization as Human Empire or Equitaine.

      Let me paraphrase you:
      Well, yes. We are all 21st centtury humans living in a world where all sapient species are us. When we are writing stories, they are for other 21st century humans not knowing anything sapient than humans.
      When dealing with T9A Humans, we have something of a problem: how do you really portray the mind of something completely alien to you? After all, all the writers live in the 21st century, not in Middle Ages, and none know an elf or a goblin, and most humans have a hard time figuring out how other humans think, to say nothing of such foreign beings.
      The difference here is that humans all share the same brain architecture. Which means concepts are at least theoretically communicable. Now, it's certainly true that it can be difficult given different contexts, languages, moral precepts, etc..., but that shared architecture does create shared meta-conceptual space which can be used to create analogies and establish communication. For example, all human societies everywhere had deeply rooted concepts of morality and justice. They might not be the same concepts, but the meta-concept is universal, and those similarities can be used to establish real communication.

      Once you have different brain architectures, there's no guarantee of shared meta-concepts. And creates which evolved will share brain similarities to the degree that they're closely related. ie, bipedal intelligent mammals will share more brain architecture, and thus have more basis for communication, than a human and a saurian will. (I'm presuming creatures in T9A evolved. If we have special creation, then it'll depend on who the creator(s) are, and how similar they chose to make them, but the existence of mundane animals classifiable as mammals, birds, etc... argues strongly for evolution).

      Bare minimum, being suited to living in the physical world will create some minimal cognitive similarities and minimal basis for communication.

      But daemons have no shared evolutionary history to create similarities. Heck, daemons might not even think using matter. And they're adapted to a totally different world with different rules, the one beyond the veil. Absolutely no communication is possible here, because there will be no shared concepts and no shared referents.

      Literally the only way to communicate with daemons would be pure math, and no society in the physical world has enough pure math to make the attempt. (You need at least early 20th century mathematics for that to even conceptually make sense as something to try).
      Just because I'm on the Legal Team doesn't mean I know anything about rules or background in development, and if/when I do, I won't be posting about it. All opinions and speculation are my own - treat them as such.

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    • Afterthought.


      lawgnome wrote:

      Kapten Kluns wrote:

      but that is still the human ideal, the viewpoint of humans regarding monsters and murderers.
      What about the monstrous viewpoint or yet further, the vastly superior demonic viewpoint. If daemons are just alien humans then whats the point of even having them? They need to be the great looming threat, because if not the actuall impact of their existance is sooooo small thanks to the inherited weakness of them being restricted to another realm and only having windows of opportunity to work from.
      Well, yes. We are all humans. When we are writing stories, they are for other humans. When dealing with daemons, we have something of a problem: how do you really portray the mind of something completely alien to you? After all, all the writers are humans, and most humans have a hard time figuring out how other humans think, to say nothing of otherworldly beings.
      .

      Squirrelloid wrote:

      If you think the daemons viewpoint was well explained, that means they're just humans in daemon suits.
      ...
      But daemons have no shared evolutionary history to create similarities. Heck, daemons might not even think using matter. And they're adapted to a totally different world with different rules, the one beyond the veil. Absolutely no communication is possible here, because there will be no shared concepts and no shared referents.
      Sure, as 21st century humans living in RL, we cannot figure out how to portray accurately a T9A Daemon.
      Not much more than an Elf or a Goblin.
      Arguably, similar impossibility exists for an inhabitant of Empire or Equitaine, whose religious beliefs and proximity with magic and alien races are engraved in their minds so much that we, 21st century RL writers, could not possibly grasp accurately.

      So what?
      This is not an excuse.
      We re not writing a scientific descrpition of the daemonic society, and our work will not be read by daemons, goblins or Equitanians, but by 21st century RL human readers.
      The only thing which matters is that, for our actual readers, what we write "feels" to be daemonic, elfic, goblinic and Equitanic (and Titanic for Titans :D ).

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    • Writing alien race it is like trying to think in another language or think in pure mathematics - it is possible, but requires a lot of effort, the writer need to learn how to think in a different way - to revalue good and evil, view of the world and etc. The closest thing i can imagine - without additional preparation - it is a dream when critical thinking shuts down and you look at the world around you without even questioning it's weirdness.
      Or try to imagine the world you are used to as a hellscape, and humans, elves and orks as something from abstract bodyhorror art, the most disgusting thing you can ever image - this is how alien creature can see us.
      DH - main
      WODG - secondary
      OK - reborn be my childhood army
      DL - side project

      The post was edited 2 times, last by Happy Aspid ().

    • The argument of us not being able to imagine the interior motives of a demon sort off leads to the fact that we would perceive demons actions as pure evil... which is great cause every fantasy setting needs an unexplicable, terrifying evil (from our perspective).

      Do we really want to go so far as trying to explain demons true motives? I think the unknown is one of the most powerfull tools in fantasy.

      Indeed, White Walkers.
      Booooooaaaaaarsssss .... Chaaaaaaaaaaaaaarge !!!
    • Pellegrim wrote:

      The argument of us not being able to imagine the interior motives of a demon sort off leads to the fact that we would perceive demons actions as pure evil... which is great cause every fantasy setting needs an unexplicable, terrifying evil (from our perspective).

      Do we really want to go so far as trying to explain demons true motives? I think the unknown is one of the most powerfull tools in fantasy.

      Indeed, White Walkers.
      Not asking to write something like this. It is advice for authors who wish to describe interactions between them and normal world. What i really liked about FB setting it is - is't roleplay books and manuals, where you had enough information to use demons and other beings properly. When master can understand the basic logic behind demon actions, he will be able to integrate it in the story more effectively.
      DH - main
      WODG - secondary
      OK - reborn be my childhood army
      DL - side project
    • @Calisson

      I actually disagree with your statement (to a point, anyway). I would quote the part, but I am typing this while feeding a small child at 3am.

      Anyway, there are degrees of alienness. There is a big difference between a fantasy race that regularly communicates with other fantasy races and a fantasy race that is a literal otherworldly alien.

      There is a spectrum, and the further away from human you get on that spectrum, the harder it is to understand.

      On one end you have humans. There are parts of other humans we cannot understand, but for the most part, many things are translatable. To use the example of my mom and politics again, while I cannot fathom the worldview that makes her think her political ideology is right, there are so many other things that I DO understand. Views on family, work, relationships, etc. And with many of those views, a dialog can be had to expand understanding.

      On the other end of the spectrum, you have creatures so alien that we have no possible frame of reference as to their worldview.

      And in the middle, there are fantasy races that, while they may not be human, are close enough to human that trade relations and diplomacy has taken place between them. Can we understand everything that makes an elf an elf? Of course not. But there are enough parallels that we can understand parts of their worldview. Dwarves have an observable family structure. Elves have a language that can be translated. Ogres understand the concept of money and the exchange of services. More than half of the factions in the T9A world share enough culturally that we can wrap our heads around a good chunk of their worldview. Enough at least that we could conceivably write a believable perspective piece from their point of view.

      Sure, some of the terrestrial races (i.e. everything but DL) are also going to be nigh unfathomable. I have no idea how lizard people are going to think. Beast herds are also going to be strange. The rats I think are a little more understandable since they seem to be cribbing some of their culture from humans in the past. The undead are alien, but at least they used to be living mortals, so there are a few parallels of understanding that we could draw from. The orcs and goblins are similar to lizards and beasts, but there is communication and trading, so there must be some possibility of understanding (actually, I’m not sure on this one. I think it is possible, but I have no proof). These races are still going to be hard to convincingly write, but I think it can be done.


      So I think that we can do some pieces from the perspectives of different races. While they are certainly alien to us, there are enough similarities that we can wrap our heads around parts of what they think to make a believable narrative. But it does depend on the race.
    • @Squirrelloid
      Yes of course the daemons were recognizeable. That is the whole point.
      The whole point of having all the different races in a fantasy setting is the exploration of humanity. It is a mirror of human nature and society. It is not important to make daemons one way or another, as long as they are relatable. That is the whole point.

      I fear though tha and he s brings us back to the roleplaying side of things on which I see no fruitful discussion amongst us.

      Good day, sir.