Crazy lance formation idea

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  • Crazy lance formation idea

    (Disclaimer: this is not a project supported idea. Nor has it been thought through in any level of detail. I was just musing on the bus yesterday and thought I'd canvas people's initial reactions to the idea. Apologies if it has been suggested before; I am unable to keep abreast of the suggestions on every board. Your mileage may vary. Wear sunscreen).


    So... crazy idea I had the other day:
    Lance formation gives FIER and gets full ranks for the purpose of rank bonus, but counts as zero full ranks for breaking ranks, being steadfast (and possibly disrupting).
    The riders also gain "masters of the joust".

    Masters of the joust
    Equitannian knights practice jousting competitions from an early age. As a result, they train to never be caught stationary on the battlefield, always looking to countercharge in response to enemy advances and riding through/around enemy formations in order to utilise their momentum and lances to best effect.
    If their unit is engaged solely to the front, models with masters of the joust receive any devastating charge bonuses in every round of combat.


    I was trying to look for a minimal change to the current system that reduces KoE dependence on the charge and inability to grind, but without making the lances formations even better against the units they are already good against.

    The idea and implementation is a little abstract, but hopefully quite simple for players to remember and use. I thought of various caveats etc, but decided that they all just made the rule more complex for little gain.

    One of the consequences of this is that KoE players will need to think more carefully about formations and how their units work together, which I guess could be either a pro or con depending on perspective.
    Another consequence is that perhaps lance formations will pile into combat, do damage for a round or two, then collapse their formation to a 5-wide formation in order to break the last few models in a unit. This could be quite cinematic to some people, but this is subjective of course.


    I'd love to know what people think the pros and cons of this idea are, and how you think it would affect KoE going forwards.
    What are the flaws with the idea, how will it change how KoE lists are written and used, will it cause any odd situations etc...
    Cheers :)
    People want t9a/RT to simultaneously square, triangle, and icosagon the circle, whilst vehemently attacking it if there are any corners.

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  • This is very close to what I proposed for the Lance Formation:
    Display Spoiler

    Lance Formation
    If all models in the unit have this special rule, it can perform a special reform after successfully rolling for the charge range (but before moving it). If the unit does, it reforms until it is exactly 3 models wide (this is the “Lance Formation”). If the unit is unable to reform into the Lance Formation (e.g. if there is not enough space) or if the charge becomes impossible by this reform, the unit cannot perform this reform and charges as normal.
    Units in Lance Formation have the following special rules:
    - The unit forms Full Ranks already with 3 models as long as it benefits from Devastating Charge. However, when charging a Gigantic model, Full Ranks of the unit do not give any bonus to the Combat Score.
    - When charging units of Standard or Large Height, all models in the unit gain Devastating Charge (2x Fight in extra Ranks, Breaking the Line, On-Going Charge)
    - When a unit in Lance Formation that charged an enemy unit wins the Combat but the enemy unit does not break, the enemy unit cannot make Close Combat Reforms in this turn.

    Breaking the Line
    All models with this special rule that are allowed to make Supporting Attacks can attack and be attacked as if they were in the first rank at the same file in the unit.

    On-Going Charge
    All models with this special rule benefit from Devastating Charge against the unit that was charged in the first two Rounds of Combat (instead of only the first Round of Combat). On-Going Charge can only be used if the following conditions are met at the beginning of the second round of combat:
    - the unit with On-Going Charge has at least 2 Full Ranks and is in Lance Formation
    - the enemy unit has at least as many ranks than the unit with On-Going Charge


    The essence was the same:
    - increase damage after turn 1
    - but without maing units in lance formation better against models they are already strong against

    This was probably a bit too complex (because I tried to solve several other issues like the unwieldlyness and characters in the second rank and incorporated some fluffy image of "breaking through enemy ranks"), but I also feel something like this is essentially the way to go.

    ------
    Anyway, back to your proposal:
    I dislike the (semi-)unconditional devastating charge. KoE, for me, is about getting charges. If I can just march in front of the enemy this is not that much fun.
    So I'd change it to: The bonus of Devastating Charge bonus does not end at the end of the first combat phase if the unit is only engaged in the front.
  • I did consider having it as maintaining the bonus after the charge.

    The things that put me off were:
    (A) Having to mark which units charged for future turns.
    (B) I think needing the charge is one of the problems for KoE. This can possibly be solved in other ways though.
    People want t9a/RT to simultaneously square, triangle, and icosagon the circle, whilst vehemently attacking it if there are any corners.

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  • DanT wrote:

    I did consider having it as maintaining the bonus after the charge.

    The things that put me off were:
    (A) Having to mark which units charged for future turns.
    (B) I think needing the charge is one of the problems for KoE. This can possibly be solved in other ways though.
    I don’t believe that relying on the Charge would be a problem if the Charge would be more effective throughout the game rather than, more often than not, only in that one round vs other similarly expensive units.

    The fact that KoE is reliant on the Charge makes its play style and “feel” more unique, which is a good thing. We should keep that, but simply make it work rather than have KoE conform to what other armies typically can do
  • I agree that currently, the charge dependance is a major problem. But that can easily be fixed by actually making it easier for KoE to charge successfully.
    My ideas were: re-roll 1s for charge distance and champion has the option to increase minimum charge range to 7" (instead of 4).

    Also, with the wording I had above, there were no cumbersome lances unless the unit charged successfully. This makes maneuvering a bit easier.

    Getting charges should remain a core thing for KoE. It's precisely what differentiates KoE from other races, since these can often simply "push forward" and don't care whether they are charged or not.
  • The only problem i see is that almost every infantry unit would be steadfast against us, we will have to kill them to the last rank, which increase the problem of koe against enemies with a lot of models. Imagine against skavens, goblins or the like...also, we wouldn't have more attacks, just more quality ones. I still like the rule, but it can increase problems with the faction unless we get more units with lots of attacks like grail knights
  • DanT wrote:

    Interesting, needing to charge is a feature not a bug. I will make a note of that.
    Well yes and no.
    It is more of a grey area and not black and white.
    On a scale while 10= all units need to charge and 0 = no unit needs to charge

    KoE should be around 7ish overall and 8 for Cavalry units.

    I agree that needing the charge is flavourful for KoE but as long as first round breaking in unavailable we need some options for the good old plain "push forward" and don't care if charging or beeing charged WHILE ALSO beeing a mounted unit.

    But the great majority should be charge depending.

    This doesn't mean there should not be an entry which is not charge dependent.

    Good example would be hippo knights. While loosing the Lance bonus for the rider is bad the unit still performes quite well without it. See EoS chicken knights

                                 

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  • Just give back morgenstern option (but with shield as it's a single handed weapon) to our knights, after charging they still have 2 attacks S4 with FIER (2)
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  • Well, rule is great but it messes up our internal balance. First of all, it is hard to guess how Questing Knights and Oath will be effected by this rule. Second, we will never EVER have enough grinding attack because we will never have enough body to grind!

    I think; this makes KOE way weaker than now because it makes us weaker against our biggest problems, infantry! We need toys to break steadfast of infantry, not lose those option. If we get a rules similar to MASTER of JOUST we will be grind every time.

    Well, Lance Formation problem is our one the main problem because we all know that it needs to adopt T9A world. It has not been adopt yet and I don't know when, because we are kept pushing back, because this is one of the bad habits T9A staff took from GW. But hopefully we will get a fix soon.

    I think there are some easy solution for charge dependance. Once we had our champion for free, so why not we continue this legacy? This is an awesome fix for KOE champions:

    Caledoriv wrote:

    My ideas were: re-roll 1s for charge distance and champion has the option to increase minimum charge range to 7" (instead of 4).

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  • Caledoriv wrote:

    So I'd change it to: The bonus of Devastating Charge bonus does not end at the end of the first combat phase if the unit is only engaged in the front.
    I completely agree that this should require a charge in the first place.

    DanT wrote:

    but counts as zero full ranks for breaking ranks, being steadfast (and possibly disrupting).

    DanT wrote:

    What are the flaws with the idea, how will it change how KoE lists are written and used, will it cause any odd situations etc...
    Cheers
    I think this would move KoE towards becoming less tactical and more point and click. I'd just frontal charge with large knight units using small chaff units to prevent flank charges - especially aspirants as 2+/Blessing chaff. This doesn't leave much counter play for an opponent.

    I'd much rather see a rule like:

    A Glorious Charge
    A charge from the Knights of Equitaine is so destructive that even the most experienced, hardy infantry men can find the sight both beautiful and terrifying.
    Devastating Charge (Fear). When charging a flank or rear of a standard sized infantry unit the enemy unit cannot benefit from Stubborn or Bodyguard.

    That might be far too good though... :)
    Never argue with Idiots. They drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.
  • Caledoriv wrote:

    This is very close to what I proposed for the Lance Formation:




    Display Spoiler
    Lance Formation
    If all models in the unit have this special rule, it can perform a special reform after successfully rolling for the charge range (but before moving it). If the unit does, it reforms until it is exactly 3 models wide (this is the “Lance Formation”). If the unit is unable to reform into the Lance Formation (e.g. if there is not enough space) or if the charge becomes impossible by this reform, the unit cannot perform this reform and charges as normal.
    Units in Lance Formation have the following special rules:
    - The unit forms Full Ranks already with 3 models as long as it benefits from Devastating Charge. However, when charging a Gigantic model, Full Ranks of the unit do not give any bonus to the Combat Score.
    - When charging units of Standard or Large Height, all models in the unit gain Devastating Charge (2x Fight in extra Ranks, Breaking the Line, On-Going Charge)
    - When a unit in Lance Formation that charged an enemy unit wins the Combat but the enemy unit does not break, the enemy unit cannot make Close Combat Reforms in this turn.



    Breaking the Line
    All models with this special rule that are allowed to make Supporting Attacks can attack and be attacked as if they were in the first rank at the same file in the unit.



    On-Going Charge
    All models with this special rule benefit from Devastating Charge against the unit that was charged in the first two Rounds of Combat (instead of only the first Round of Combat). On-Going Charge can only be used if the following conditions are met at the beginning of the second round of combat:
    - the unit with On-Going Charge has at least 2 Full Ranks and is in Lance Formation
    - the enemy unit has at least as many ranks than the unit with On-Going Charge

    This is brilliant. You only reform into lance formation when you charge so there's no cumbersome lances to manoeuvre! @Windelov, is this possible for us to implement in your homebrew or do you think it's not possible?

    It clearly marks which units charged - they're the units in lance formation and it helps us against the big blocks and not the small units. I like this a lot, although I agree that it's quite complicated. :)
    Never argue with Idiots. They drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.
  • Yes, a simplified version of this change into lance formation might be better than my idea.
    Whether it can be made simple enough to realistically implement is an open question I think.

    I also worry about the tabletop practicalities of it, particularly regarding movement trays etc.
    People want t9a/RT to simultaneously square, triangle, and icosagon the circle, whilst vehemently attacking it if there are any corners.

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    Dan ventures into the lands of smoke and fire

    Basic beginners tactics
    No 'tactics for beginners' thread?
  • I think we could easily go back to having a wedge shape for the Lance Formation and we don't need any special rules beyond the ones allowing the formation, all models fight across the gap(a normal rule) and so count as the front rank, the models behind are in the second rank and can make supporting attacks (as normal).

    It doesn't have to be a complete arrow wedge.

    A
    B
    C
    X
    XX
    XXX
    XXXX
    XXXXX
    XX
    XXX
    XXXX
    XXXXX
    X_____
    XXX
    XXXX
    XXXXX
    XX___X



    A
    15 models, 5 complete ranks in total.
    9 models are able to fight as if in base contact, 5 may make supporting attacks.

    B
    15 models, 4 complete ranks in total.
    9 models are able to fight as if in base contact, 5 may make supporting attacks.
    C
    15 models, 3 complete ranks in total.
    9 models are able to fight as if in base contact, 6 may make supporting attacks.

    Flanking is potentially something to figure out but it gets easier the more blunt the lance gets as there's less flan to deal with.
    You don't need FiER as a rule, although it can be added if necessary. It's simpler to allow all the centre wedge models to make supporting attacks regardless of the chosen wedge.

    C works out nicely with regard to command, since you have 3 command models and they'll all be sat at the head of the Lance.


    We can have an additional rule letting them continue to count as charging provided they won the previous combat round on top of that if it's necessary.
  • My suggestion.

    War Steed of Equitaine
    Models mounted on War Steeds of Equitaine only needs to be 3 models wide to form a rank and 6 models wide to form a line formation.

    Line Breaker
    When a unit is successfully charged by a unit with the Line Breaker special rule, the charged unit may not be steadfast due to its number of ranks.

    Pushing the Charge
    If a unit has the Pushing the Charge special rule and has a banner and did either successfully make a charge this turn or won combat the previous combat phase, the unit gains fight in extra rank (x). X is equal to the number of command models in the unit.

    Equitaine knights might be used in narrow units as today or in up to 6 wide and 24 knights death star units. They have an easier way of breaking infantry units on the charge as they only have to overcome static CR enough to win combat. If the charged units holds, the knights have a way to keep up their attacks and grind, if they invested in command models, but killing champions in challenges would lessen their power.
  • Sir_Sully wrote:

    A Glorious Charge
    A charge from the Knights of Equitaine is so destructive that even the most experienced, hardy infantry men can find the sight both beautiful and terrifying.
    Devastating Charge (Fear). When charging a flank or rear of a standard sized infantry unit the enemy unit cannot benefit from Stubborn or Bodyguard.

    That might be far too good though... :)
    I think this is an absolute must
  • Good discussion.

    @DanT I really like the idea, and @Caledoriv I know that you have long suggested similar solutions :)

    One thought, and please keep an open mind here, are we trying to pack too much into the Lance formation?

    I think @arthain at some point very correctly pointed out that the lance formation was by far the constellation in the 9th age able to pack the most punch on the least frontage. Due to this feature, he considered it extremely powerful and was concerned with any further buffs.

    If following that line of thought, the Lance formation is intended for combi-charges. However, when we discuss the inability of the lance in breaking enemies, we always consider it as a stand alone, i.e. one unit vs one unit.

    Now, I know that we do that as knights are so expensive prohibting any reliable plan of having enough units to be able to pull off multi-charges. However, then we might need to consider what could be done to facilitate that AND if we need other tools for handling other challenges. Are we thinking about this the wrong way?

    best
    Nis

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