What do YOU most want to see for Daemon lore?

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    • I don't want to hear about daemons from the daemon point of view. How would you learn that? Who would bother talking to mortals about it? I mean, an in-world religious text which ascribes motivations to them would be fine, but this is clearly a work of fantasy by a human author. There is no possible source for first-hand knowledge of daemons.

      No one expects to hear Cthulhu's perspective. (And no one writes from it in genre - it can only be played for laughs). It would cheapen Cthulhu if we got to see his perspective. It's the unknowableness that makes cosmic horrors interesting. Daemons are cosmic horrors. Humans might dress them up in human concepts for their morality plays, but that doesn't say anything real about daemons.
      Just because I'm on the Legal Team doesn't mean I know anything about rules or background in development, and if/when I do, I won't be posting about it. All opinions and speculation are my own - treat them as such.

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    • Squirrelloid wrote:

      I don't want to hear about daemons from the daemon point of view. How would you learn that? Who would bother talking to mortals about it? I mean, an in-world religious text which ascribes motivations to them would be fine, but this is clearly a work of fantasy by a human author. There is no possible source for first-hand knowledge of daemons.

      No one expects to hear Cthulhu's perspective. (And no one writes from it in genre - it can only be played for laughs). It would cheapen Cthulhu if we got to see his perspective. It's the unknowableness that makes cosmic horrors interesting. Daemons are cosmic horrors. Humans might dress them up in human concepts for their morality plays, but that doesn't say anything real about daemons.
      But something similar to the viewed trip of Dante could be done, where the narrator has first hand experience but not a guided tour in the sense of being told why we do this by the daemons.
      There being dialogue between daemons and mortals I do wish for, but out of the pure context of daemons using mortals for their own twisted gains.
    • Squirrelloid wrote:

      I don't want to hear about daemons from the daemon point of view. How would you learn that? Who would bother talking to mortals about it? I mean, an in-world religious text which ascribes motivations to them would be fine, but this is clearly a work of fantasy by a human author. There is no possible source for first-hand knowledge of daemons.

      No one expects to hear Cthulhu's perspective. (And no one writes from it in genre - it can only be played for laughs). It would cheapen Cthulhu if we got to see his perspective. It's the unknowableness that makes cosmic horrors interesting. Daemons are cosmic horrors. Humans might dress them up in human concepts for their morality plays, but that doesn't say anything real about daemons.
      Have you ever read The Screwtape Letters? Creatures of malevolent evil don't have to be entirely incomprehensible.

      Cthulhu isn't a daemon. He doesn't care about humanity, he might just snack on us as he floats past. he has no agency, only immense power and a complete lack of concern for consequences. The baddies in Lovecraftian horror stories are the cultists, not whatever empowers them.
      The Chaos Gods and their minions, to properly be evil, have to be a bit more human than just creatures from the void.
    • BoozySquid wrote:

      Squirrelloid wrote:

      No one expects to hear Cthulhu's perspective. (And no one writes from it in genre - it can only be played for laughs). It would cheapen Cthulhu if we got to see his perspective. It's the unknowableness that makes cosmic horrors interesting. Daemons are cosmic horrors. Humans might dress them up in human concepts for their morality plays, but that doesn't say anything real about daemons.
      Have you ever read The Screwtape Letters? Creatures of malevolent evil don't have to be entirely incomprehensible.
      Cthulhu isn't a daemon. He doesn't care about humanity, he might just snack on us as he floats past. he has no agency, only immense power and a complete lack of concern for consequences. The baddies in Lovecraftian horror stories are the cultists, not whatever empowers them.
      The Chaos Gods and their minions, to properly be evil, have to be a bit more human than just creatures from the void.
      I have. i didn't like them. Christian devils/angels entire existence revolve around humans for theological reasons that don't apply to daemons. They're also likely fantasy, so humans can ascribe whatever motivations they like to them and be 'right', unlike daemons within the T9A world. If devils do really exist, well, it's unlikely the Screwtape Letters are fact. (Daemons verifiably exist to T9A inhabitants, so the human population can be wrong when ascribing motivation to them).

      Daemons aren't "evil". Evil would require they have comprehensible motivations. Daemon's are covered by blue and orange morality. Just like it doesn't make sense to talk about ants as beings of moral worth, daemons have no reason to consider humans beings of moral worth. And from the ant's perspective, humans are unknowable - so too daemons from the human perspective. So worrying about whether or not they're properly 'evil' is the wrong worry. They're alien. Our concepts of morality don't apply. (Humans may describe them as evil, because they cause death and destruction, but that no more makes them evil than exterminating a termite mound would make me evil).

      While I agree the 'evil' in Lovecraft is the cultists (who have chosen to serve an unknowable master whose manifested desires are inimical to life on earth, and as humans such behavior is judgeable), I disagree Cthulhu necessarily has no agency and no concern for consequences. We just can't understand his motivations and have no way of learning them even if we could. We have no way of knowing or even understanding what 'consequences' he'd care about. Unknowability does not imply a lack of these things, just that we cannot know them. Nor does his lack of concern about what happens to humans means he has no concern for any consequences. (Do you worry about what your actions do to the probably millions of ants that live within 5 minutes of you? Does that mean you have no concern for consequences, because you don't worry about consequences for ants?)
      Just because I'm on the Legal Team doesn't mean I know anything about rules or background in development, and if/when I do, I won't be posting about it. All opinions and speculation are my own - treat them as such.

      Legal

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    • I don't understand how anything can be "mythologically wrong" in the T9A mythology when it's all new and made up ?(

      I mean yeah, Yin is a she and Yang a he, Tiamat is a she, Hela is a she (though she's not as much a representative of chaos as the ice giants), and I bet in many many cultures it's been like this in the past but to me it seems very arbitrary. There isn't any biological basis to do it this way in any case, and to the possible cultural ones I wouldn't really wanna go into.
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    • I'd like to see more text about demons from their perspective actually.

      Like a demon hunter who has bound and interrogated a demon. Or one who has been exorcised, but retains firm memories of his host - nightmares that haunt him/her forever. The residual insanity of being a multidimensional being from beyond the veil, trapped in a mundane world that barely can contain your very essense in corporeal form.

      I feel like demons are constantly trying to break the veil and escape, but the mortal world must be painful, disorienting. Like being dragged under the sea.

      They are beings that we can't possibly truly understand - every attempt of them trying to explain their world to us, must seem like trying to explain picasso to dog.

      That said, I would love to see more ARMY stuff. Visions of grand battles in the veil between factions, the rise and fall of demonic leaders. Visions of armies breaking through the veil, and being shattered back into place by mortals. Images of BATTLE with these beings (That is afterall the point).

      Cults are cool - but we don't play demonic cults - the army are the Daemonic LEGIONS - show us the Legions.

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    • Phaeoron wrote:

      I don't understand how anything can be "mythologically wrong" in the T9A mythology when it's all new and made up ?(

      I mean yeah, Yin is a she and Yang a he, Tiamat is a she, Hela is a she (though she's not as much a representative of chaos as the ice giants), and I bet in many many cultures it's been like this in the past but to me it seems very arbitrary. There isn't any biological basis to do it this way in any case, and to the possible cultural ones I wouldn't really wanna go into.
      Well, this gets into what you mean by chaos, too. Loki could be seen as chaos, but not in the same sense as the primordial chaos.

      Now, our Norse Mythology is mostly from the small post-belief record created by Snorri Sturlsson, which means we're probably missing a lot of important details. But to look for a 'primordial chaos', we need to look at the creation story, where chaos doesn't seem to be a character, so much as the consequence of Niflheim and Muspelheim temperatures and fluids mixing, from which is produced Ymir (who creates the first man and woman). And then there's the cow... (Audumla, who is the first female character to appear in Norse Myth, and is created by the same mixing of heat and cold that produced Ymir. Where Ymir creates people, Audumla 'creates' the gods by freeing Odin's father from the ice in Ginnungagap that was formed by cold from Niflheim).

      This is already super weird. Part of this might be what was preserved and how it was preserved, given Iceland was already Christian when Snorri wrote. It might be a weirdness associated with some Indo-Aryan mythology. (Judeo-Christianity and Islam also have a male creator, although Ymir is not a god, but an evil giant, so we're more like gnosticism's yaldabaoth). And these aren't even the gods, they're things before the gods.

      But I don't really see a 'primordial chaos' in this story at all, unless it's Surtur, uncreated and pre-existent living in Muspelheim. I'm not sure 'chaos = female' or even 'chaos = fundamental character' is as universal as might be thought.

      (I'm relying on the Kevin Crossley-Holland translation of the Norse Myths, which afaik is the best translation available in English).
      Just because I'm on the Legal Team doesn't mean I know anything about rules or background in development, and if/when I do, I won't be posting about it. All opinions and speculation are my own - treat them as such.

      Legal

      Playtester

      Chariot Command HQ

    • kisanis wrote:

      I'd like to see more text about demons from their perspective actually.

      Like a demon hunter who has bound and interrogated a demon. Or one who has been exorcised, but retains firm memories of his host - nightmares that haunt him/her forever. The residual insanity of being a multidimensional being from beyond the veil, trapped in a mundane world that barely can contain your very essense in corporeal form.
      You mean like how Matthias Horst interrogated something seemingly possessed by a daemon in the UD book?

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    • Col. Tartleton wrote:

      Ymir is definitely a hermaphrodite and is killed by a masculine order Trinity.

      Order always seems to be masculine. There may be exception but they prove the rules as it were.
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    • Mad 'At wrote:

      kisanis wrote:

      I'd like to see more text about demons from their perspective actually.

      Like a demon hunter who has bound and interrogated a demon. Or one who has been exorcised, but retains firm memories of his host - nightmares that haunt him/her forever. The residual insanity of being a multidimensional being from beyond the veil, trapped in a mundane world that barely can contain your very essense in corporeal form.
      You mean like how Matthias Horst interrogated something seemingly possessed by a daemon in the UD book?
      ;)

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