KoE General Discussion thread

This site uses cookies. By continuing to browse this site, you are agreeing to our Cookie Policy.

The latest issue of the 9th Scroll is here! You can read all about it in the news.

Our beta phase is finally over. Download The Ninth Age: Fantasy Battles, 2nd Edition now!

  • Ludaman wrote:

    Make plate armor an option.
    I knew someone was gonna say this.

    I think this is a terrible idea, and against both the background and mechanics of the KoE army.
    It would be unhealthy for the game and I don't see it as anything other than a power grab.
    It would also make KoE even more rock-paper-scissors.
    I personally hope that KoE doesn't go this route with the LAB.
    Being supportive & giving useful criticism aren't mutually exclusive.
    Are you supportive of the project? Do your posts reflect that?

    List repository and links HERE
    Basic beginners tactics HERE
  • Then you fix questing knights, lol!

    Here are the options:

    1. Heavy armor and great swords: (big steamy pile of bad, this was the first iteration, almost no one played them)

    2. Great swords that let you use shields for some reason and also sometimes let u use them as a spear. What we have now, people like them a lot, but they ruin internal balance for characters

    3. +1 str and +1 ap, may be used with a shield, strike in agility order. Grindy! Maybe better then it is now, it’s my favorite solution since it’s easy. Downside is it works less well against monsters and that’s what questing knights are supposed to hunt.

    4. Plate armor and great weapons. Such an easy solution and statistically the 1+/6++ is basically the same as the 2+/5++ (correct me if I’m wrong)

    Bah humbug to “doesn’t fit the fluff”. When I started collecting the minis they were wearing late 14th/15th century 100 years war style plate armor, which although heavier, protects just as well as later 16th century plate.

    5. The magical solution that doesn’t create a slurry of new rules, allows Questing knights to function as a viable unit and is “original and fits the fluff”. Anyone who can figure this one out deserves a cookie
  • Tweak for 4:

    - heavy armour, great weapons, questing luggage( +1 armour, - 2 march ).

    No harm done to fluff.

    Hpwever i woult prefer questers with 2+/3+ as T4 + blessing

    Just to have more variety and progression of stats in knights...and makes them better vs toxic, but not as resilent as grails
    Visit our blog, Escribas del Viejo Mundo!
  • I always had the impression that bastard sword + shield combo was just an bandaid because "moo fluff no plate for us" and "as 3+ Questing knights didn't saw any play"

    So we got pseudo plate like de and hbe with their cloaks through that rule.

    Thanks to the weak human profile and the job of our Lords to kill other characters Questing are the only real solution because plain and simple 2+ as is more often not enough.

    You could live with 2+ as if you take tristran but this weapon is just underwhelming and not enough as our Lords need to kill stuff too.



    So yeah wait for full book rework to fix this.

    Questing knights should be specialised Msu unit in the full book and I do think the Questing Oath with bastard sword will change.

    I still think +1s/ap is the best solution at agi and Questing Oath gives +1 to hit vs fear and +1 to wound vs gigantic.
    Or something like this.

                    

    Product-Search

    KoE Community Support

    Lord of the Hobby

    Why are the strongest characters all bad.......
  • About virtues. This is what I want to see

    1. 7 different characters
      • Grail lord
      • Questing Duke
      • Duke naked
      • Naked Paladin
      • Questing paladin
      • Damsel
      • Warrior damsel
      • Each with own mounts. Grail lord could have a d6 stomp mount
    2. Each unit entry has access to his own distinct [lexicon]virtues[/lexicon] (there can be overlap. For example if we have 3 different Questing [lexicon]virtues[/lexicon] the [lexicon]Duke[/lexicon] Coul have access to 1-2 and the [lexicon]paladin[/lexicon] to 1-3)
    3. Each has a own power task and power level
      • Grail lord has the power level of a Wdg or vampire
      • Duke is for leadership zero virtues perhaps even
      • Questing Duke is a mix of leadship and dmg.
      • Paladin is a fighter with low leadership
      • Questing paladin is specialised in one certain enemy (monster, fear, undead?)



      Higher leadership means less access to dmg [lexicon]virtues[/lexicon].Lower leadship means higher access to dmg [lexicon]virtues[/lexicon]

                    

    Product-Search

    KoE Community Support

    Lord of the Hobby

    Why are the strongest characters all bad.......

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Klexe ().

  • Ludaman wrote:

    Make the blessing a flat 6+ except for grail knights who receive the same version of the blessing as other knights do now. Remove bastard sword
    I don't like this. The blessing is something that sets us apart from other armies and I don't want to lose it. I've had many different ideas and thoughts over what to do with it but I keep coming back to what we have now - I just wish we could link it to AP2 rather than Strength 5.

    Ludaman wrote:

    3. +1 str and +1 ap, may be used with a shield, strike in agility order. Grindy! Maybe better then it is now, it’s my favorite solution since it’s easy. Downside is it works less well against monsters and that’s what questing knights are supposed to hunt.
    I like this. If they're meant to work against monsters we can buff the oath. It's currently +1 to hit vs fear, we could change that to reroll wounds against fear if wounding is the issue. (Just an example)

    Kratos wrote:

    Hpwever i woult prefer questers with 2+/3+ as T4 + blessing

    Just to have more variety and progression of stats in knights...and makes them better vs toxic, but not as resilent as grails
    Res 4 with a 2 handed weapon isn't a bad idea. Hopefully we can get past the "they're only humans" brigade.

    Klexe wrote:

    7 different characters
    Out of interest, why not a Grail Paladin? I think that's more thematic than a Warrior Damsel - after all there's no reason why a Paladin can't be a woman is there?

    If anyone could find a Gender neutral term for Lord / Duke that would be a good name change as well.
    Never argue with Idiots. They drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.
  • Sir_Sully wrote:

    Ludaman wrote:

    Make the blessing a flat 6+ except for grail knights who receive the same version of the blessing as other knights do now. Remove bastard sword
    I don't like this. The blessing is something that sets us apart from other armies and I don't want to lose it. I've had many different ideas and thoughts over what to do with it but I keep coming back to what we have now - I just wish we could link it to AP2 rather than Strength 5.

    Ludaman wrote:

    3. +1 str and +1 ap, may be used with a shield, strike in agility order. Grindy! Maybe better then it is now, it’s my favorite solution since it’s easy. Downside is it works less well against monsters and that’s what questing knights are supposed to hunt.
    I like this. If they're meant to work against monsters we can buff the oath. It's currently +1 to hit vs fear, we could change that to reroll wounds against fear if wounding is the issue. (Just an example)

    Kratos wrote:

    Hpwever i woult prefer questers with 2+/3+ as T4 + blessing

    Just to have more variety and progression of stats in knights...and makes them better vs toxic, but not as resilent as grails
    Res 4 with a 2 handed weapon isn't a bad idea. Hopefully we can get past the "they're only humans" brigade.

    Klexe wrote:

    7 different characters
    Out of interest, why not a Grail Paladin? I think that's more thematic than a Warrior Damsel - after all there's no reason why a Paladin can't be a woman is there?
    If anyone could find a Gender neutral term for Lord / Duke that would be a good name change as well.
    royalty
  • Klexe wrote:

    Well I can see this work and it is somewhat similar to bloodlines and will greatly help with balance.


    Naked as now.

    We Splitt virtues in virtues for Questing virtues for grail Oath.

    For example we could give Virtue of might only access to grail Oath. This would remove the straight extra charge range and +1 to hit vs fear and disallows fleeing.


    It is somewhat same as bloodlines as you don't have access to Nosferatu stuff when picking blood dragon
    That's an good idea, and would help a lot with balancing. The only trick is making some of the minor virtues within those categories worth taking, otherwise it's a straight nerf if you simply separate the best virtues and prevent people from taking them together.
  • @Sir_Sully

    A grail lord is not an upgrade from a Duke. He could be a paladin or Duke before becoming a grail lord.

    Grail Royalty sounds meh.

    I would prefer then

    Grail guardian
    Grail warden
    Grail protector
    Defender of the grail


    Why warrior Damsel? I am a huge fan of an adept fighting character. Same as Wdg have it with their herald.
    This also enables a more melee focused army with some magic support without investing in a wizzard master.


    I would not enable a grail paladin or grail Duke to really show and enable supernatural stats and an "not human anymore" feeling

    Perhaps I shouldn't call it warrior Damsel but just something like every other melee fighting wizzard or the prelate from EoS but less with unit buffing but more fighting prowess



    @dan
    Obvious the virtues should be balanced and all worth taking.


    (following example is with an fighting paladin with better stats but not Ld)

    For example taking our current virtues:
    Might = paladin.
    Renown = paladin
    Valour = paladin
    Audacity = paladin / Duke
    Piety = Duke
    Daring = Duke
    Humility = Duke


    That is so just an example but you see how we could balance some builds thanks to that options.

    The current etc list would have ld8 only on their paladin might divine judgment list for example.

                    

    Product-Search

    KoE Community Support

    Lord of the Hobby

    Why are the strongest characters all bad.......
  • Royalty is not the same as a Duke. Not all royals are titled. Noble or Suzerain could work, but for some reason they don't quite feel right. I don't know.

    Klexe wrote:

    @Sir_Sully

    A grail lord is not an upgrade from a Duke. He could be a paladin or Duke before becoming a grail lord.

    Grail Royalty sounds meh.

    I would prefer then

    Grail guardian
    Grail warden
    Grail protector
    Defender of the grail
    ah, ok. Guardian works best for me out of those but I don't know if that will hit IP issues with Total War: Warhammer introducing a unit with the same name.

    Grail Hero
    Grail Champion
    Champion of the Lady

    I'd still prefer the current upgrade system because I don't want to have to make a choice between a paladin / Duke or a Grail Character. The way the current discussion is going I can see most armies not including a Duke which doesn't really sit right for me. Our Dukes/Lords should be leading from the front not being a General in their castle.
    Never argue with Idiots. They drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.
  • That is why i am spittballing ideas and see how the community likes it.

    I know some people would prefer an army lead by a paladin to erradicated undead investation. So yeah both makes sense. As long both are viable and balanced mmh

    I dont think current dukes should be worse then now. Just a little bit more shift into supporting virtues and the high end dmg virtues are paladins

                    

    Product-Search

    KoE Community Support

    Lord of the Hobby

    Why are the strongest characters all bad.......
  • Klexe wrote:

    I know some people would prefer an army lead by a paladin to erradicated undead investation. So yeah both makes sense. As long both are viable and balanced mmh

    I dont think current dukes should be worse then now. Just a little bit more shift into supporting virtues and the high end dmg virtues are paladins
    I agree that a paladin led army should be an option but most of our armies should still be led by a Duke. With a Paladin becoming more killy than a Duke (and a Grail character will need to be more killy than a duke by necessity), I can't see the Duke seeing play. We need characters to kill stuff so this setup will encourage people to take a Paladin + Grail Whatsit + Damsel instead of Paladin + Duke + Damsel.

    The Grail thingy and the Paladin are just going to be putting out so much more damage than a duke and +1 Discipline doesn't compensate for the loss of potential damage - especially as there's a +1 discipline item.

    This is why I'd prefer the Grail bit to be an upgrade to our existing characters. If we can balance them, which won't be easy, we'll be in a good place with our characters + Virtues.
    Never argue with Idiots. They drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.
  • That is why Duke = leadership. Like 9/10
    Paladin is forced for ld 8

    The go too will always be Duke with Ld 9/10 as LD is way too important.
    You could try to squeeze Divination paladin builds

                    

    Product-Search

    KoE Community Support

    Lord of the Hobby

    Why are the strongest characters all bad.......
  • Kapten Kluns wrote:

    tbh paladins never were powerhouses to me, they rather combine combat with magic.
    So something similar to the EoS prelate but with fightier stats imo but without the unconditional hatred.
    A, B class fighter character that can throw out boundspells.
    Well for me too. I guess it is because of World of warcraft and other games.

    But afaik in the background for 9th age Paladins are highly specilised warriors who go toe to toe with vampires and hunt them. They are not known for magic.

    So paladin = lesser vampire from powerlevel
    Grail guardian (name WIP) = WDG big vampire powerlevel.
    That is how i see it

                    

    Product-Search

    KoE Community Support

    Lord of the Hobby

    Why are the strongest characters all bad.......
  • Klexe wrote:

    Kapten Kluns wrote:

    tbh paladins never were powerhouses to me, they rather combine combat with magic.
    So something similar to the EoS prelate but with fightier stats imo but without the unconditional hatred.
    A, B class fighter character that can throw out boundspells.
    Well for me too. I guess it is because of World of warcraft and other games.
    But afaik in the background for 9th age Paladins are highly specilised warriors who go toe to toe with vampires and hunt them. They are not known for magic.

    So paladin = lesser vampire from powerlevel
    Grail guardian (name WIP) = WDG big vampire powerlevel.
    That is how i see it
    but highly specialized hunters of vampires could mean anything. Similar to how the blessing is magical but not magic in the sense of casting.
    A paladin could use seals, prayers etc etc to harm the opponent.
    Perhaps two damage spells that are tied to enemy units being in combat and one bound that mitigates some amount of close combat recieved against R&F in the unit?
  • Kapten Kluns wrote:

    Klexe wrote:

    Kapten Kluns wrote:

    tbh paladins never were powerhouses to me, they rather combine combat with magic.
    So something similar to the EoS prelate but with fightier stats imo but without the unconditional hatred.
    A, B class fighter character that can throw out boundspells.
    Well for me too. I guess it is because of World of warcraft and other games.But afaik in the background for 9th age Paladins are highly specilised warriors who go toe to toe with vampires and hunt them. They are not known for magic.

    So paladin = lesser vampire from powerlevel
    Grail guardian (name WIP) = WDG big vampire powerlevel.
    That is how i see it
    but highly specialized hunters of vampires could mean anything. Similar to how the blessing is magical but not magic in the sense of casting.A paladin could use seals, prayers etc etc to harm the opponent.
    Perhaps two damage spells that are tied to enemy units being in combat and one bound that mitigates some amount of close combat recieved against R&F in the unit?


    Heres my homebrew undead KoE. Could just give paladins the hereditary as they pray.
    I am going to offend you. You are not going to like it. You will survive.

    Chaotic Neutral
    youtube.com/channel/UCJ9e5C1f26iuvhOA33rsFJQ

    Model Reviews with Twice the Brain Injuries!
  • Klexe wrote:

    That is why Duke = leadership. Like 9/10
    Paladin is forced for ld 8

    The go too will always be Duke with Ld 9/10 as LD is way too important.
    You could try to squeeze Divination paladin builds
    We're not going to get LD10. So Dukes will be 9. Which = Paladin + 70 point Item.

    That gives you the best of both worlds. The Duke needs to offer something else as well, maybe rally around the flag? Or auto pass panic tests within 6". Or Something so that a Duke isn't just a leadership bubble but is still clearly different to a Paladin.

    The Duke obviously still needs to be able to kill stuff better than a normal knight, but if he's just a less killy paladin with Discipline 9 then he's not going to see much play.
    Never argue with Idiots. They drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.
  • Sir_Sully wrote:

    Klexe wrote:

    That is why Duke = leadership. Like 9/10
    Paladin is forced for ld 8

    The go too will always be Duke with Ld 9/10 as LD is way too important.
    You could try to squeeze Divination paladin builds
    We're not going to get LD10. So Dukes will be 9. Which = Paladin + 70 point Item.
    That gives you the best of both worlds. The Duke needs to offer something else as well, maybe rally around the flag? Or auto pass panic tests within 6". Or Something so that a Duke isn't just a leadership bubble but is still clearly different to a Paladin.

    The Duke obviously still needs to be able to kill stuff better than a normal knight, but if he's just a less killy paladin with Discipline 9 then he's not going to see much play.
    id personally put the Duke as the leader type.
    The paladin on the same fighty frame as the Duke but with boundspells.
    And the grail lord as the best fighter.
  • Here is roughly my vision for our character section.

    One unit entry for current lord-level. 150pts if not general, 200 if. Option for bsb. Our allround option.

    Paladin unable to be general, more killy, more options for virtues and grail(statline buff) /questing vows. More access to duelling and monster slaying. 200 item allowance. No bsb.

    Damsel ld7 weak statline but stand behind for all knights, even on foot.

    Bard? Buffing knights, reducing rubberlance syndrome. High cost, meh statline. No general.

    Combat damsel, unable to be general, max adept. Can be bsb?

    5 character entries all of which would find play in different lists. I can see myself taking all of them regularly in different builds. For example:

    Damsel general, low ld bubble but room for a killy paladin, grailbuffed or nah. More focus on trying to win combats and not need testing for break.

    Normal lord general, high ld but reduced offensive due to maybe lacking funds for a paladin if you want a bsb and a Master wizard.

    Or anything in between. The goal should not be to create 1 optimal list but to enable the creation of several different types.
    "In the end rules are just the groundwork for 2 players to have an agreement on how the game is played. If you friends/gaming group is fine with it you can do what ever you want with the game." - Smart Guy on the T9A forum

    "By the Lady, is that Elderberries I smell?" - Duke Niemar of Snowfall's Eves