KoE General Discussion thread

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  • Ludaman wrote:

    Every once in a while I test the water to see if people still feel this way or if people are starting to get sick of the fact that Lance formation = weaker knights and realize they don’t really care about the long missle-like shape of the formation anymore and would rather have knights that can actually hit the broad side of a barn when they charge.
    Well, depends on what rules come with it, doesn't it? it's not the 3 wide formation (or at least not only). If the lance formation lost ranks and the ability to break steadfast for example, and/or the knights wouldn't have 8/16", do you still think the 3 wide formation would absolutely dictate that the knights couldn't get stronger?
    Also the human stats limit prevents quite a lot of barn hitting too. But I have no idea what really contributes to all this.

    Maybe @echoCTRL can give a hint how he gauged the pricing on his homebrew book?

    Ludaman wrote:


    your response is absolutely noted, sorry if I in anyway insulted your maturity level, not my intention.
    No, no worries.
    Stone: "Nerf Paper, it is overpowered. Scissors are well balanced."

    :KoE: :VC: :WDG_bw:
  • AEnoriel wrote:

    Lance formation is unique if not the most efficient. It has flavour. It's fun.


    Ludaman wrote:

    Lance formation = weaker knights and realize they don’t really care about the long missle-like shape of the formation anymore and would rather have knights that can actually hit the broad side of a barn when they charge.
    Why would anyone hit the broad side of a barn when there are large doors you can charge through at full power ?
    I would much much much much much rather my knights be better at aiming their lances than galloping in a column if I had to choose between the too.

    Bur if people don’t mind sacrificing the extra ranks counting towards CR for some other trade I’ll be happy with that too. (Still Counts for breaking steadfast)
  • I think there is more options than just the polar ends of Lance formation and LAB will find it.

    For example if unit sizes weren't as large the potential would be less. That could impact pricing and balance. In the case of grails we could look to echo's concept and see this further reduces Lance formations breaking power while retaining all the elements we love from the unit and even making them better in some respects. Lower unit size yes, but the model count is preserved by allowing multiple units without current restrictions.

    Also if what units had Lance formation were to become more limited. Realms and grails being the main ones to retain it probably. Again with grails breaking power being self limiting. This would also allow more room for increasing knights effectiveness.

    And then what is Lance formation. I believe it has been confirmed that some sort of unique visually recognizable formation WILL be in the book. Beyond that it's open. I personally really like the current visual. But I'm open to exploring other concepts in LAB.
    "When a man lies he murders some part of the world.. These are the pale deaths which men miscall their lives. All this I cannot bear to witness any longer. Cannot the kingdoms of Equitaine take me home" -Merlin/James Hetfield/KOE "To Live is To Die"
  • I am speculating that the ability to bring multiple breaking units may be negatively impacting the individual model/unit and cost. The potential is there whether or not that actually happens. If we make the limits into what we use anyway we lower the breaking potential without hurting the units. In addition the slightly higher commitment to realms would reduce the ability to spam premium chaff. While the slightly lower ceiling of unit size also limits the size of unit they can break from frontal charges. These are sort of like soft limits but they are limits and do factor I would expect. To flesh it out some..

    Aspirants
    5-10 strong

    Questors
    5-10 strong

    Realms
    8-12 strong, Lance formation

    Grails
    3-6 strong, Lance formation, 2h, monstrous support

    Etc

    Just a quick example. Here we see that the army keeps Lance formation but applies it only where needed. The ability to bring true breaking units is limited to core and probably with character support so the fear of a full army of frontal charges breaking steadfast is much less. Might allow us to adjust the hitting power in other places.

    Editing for auto correct..
    "When a man lies he murders some part of the world.. These are the pale deaths which men miscall their lives. All this I cannot bear to witness any longer. Cannot the kingdoms of Equitaine take me home" -Merlin/James Hetfield/KOE "To Live is To Die"

    The post was edited 3 times, last by Stygian ().

  • Erethriel wrote:

    @Giladis I feel like opening or participating in a brainstorm thread on fantasy biology. Monster by monster, if you like?
    That would be an interesting thread.
    I remember in the Orc and Goblin forum/background forum(it was at least a couple years back) there was much discussion on how their species should be represented since using "fungus" wasn't allowed due to copyright - and even if we could get away with orc fungus, I feel it's the lazy approach.

    Using my knowledge of biological reproduction, combined with economic and warfare statistics, and some sociology - I came up with an interesting tribal story that described how orcs are able to reproduce fast enough to have hordes of troops, how they figure out their hierarchy, lifespan, equipment, etc....


    ....I guess I should keep this on topic for KoE.
    The discussion on "too many pegasus, too many hippos, too many grail knights" in a single game I feel is purely a problem with players own sense of immersion.
    If you feel those fantasy creatures are extremely rare then don't put them in your list and tell your opponent to do the same and have a immersive battle.
    If you want to be competitive and throw all the cool fantasy creatures and apex predators into your list then you have create your narrative around that for your battle. In the fantasy setting, you are choosing to play the 1 big historical battle where all the pegasus, all the grain knights, all the carnasaurs and stegadons, etc... have been called to arms!
    It's a one off battle. When the battle is over, you rack up your models and play again in a "repeat" battle. It's playing a video game and loading the same battle scenario over and over.

    So biologically speaking, these creature are rare in the setting. But you keep loading the same historical battle that these units were in.

    ...it's a game, so that's why you have 9 grail knights in a KoE army even though in the fluff there are only 20 grail knights in the whole kingdom.

    The post was edited 4 times, last by Peacemaker ().

  • Peacemaker wrote:

    ....I guess I should keep this on topic for KoE.
    The discussion on "too many pegasus, too many hippos, too many grail knights" in a single game I feel is purely a problem with players own sense of immersion.
    If you feel those fantasy creatures are extremely rare then don't put them in your list and tell your opponent to do the same and have a immersive battle.
    If you want to be competitive and throw all the cool fantasy creatures and apex predators into your list then you have create your narrative around that for your battle. In the fantasy setting, you are choosing to play the 1 big historical battle where all the pegasus, all the grain knights, all the carnasaurs and stegadons, etc... have been called to arms!
    It's a one off battle. When the battle is over, you rack up your models and play again in a "repeat" battle. It's playing a video game and loading the same battle scenario over and over.

    So biologically speaking, these creature are rare in the setting. But you keep loading the same historical battle that these units were in.

    ...it's a game, so that's why you have 9 grail knights in a KoE army even though in the fluff there are only 20 grail knights in the whole kingdom.
    Liking your "restart" approach and comparison to a video game or favorite movie with different outcome.

    I completely agree, that as many things as possible should be the choice of the player(s).

    After all, I´ve always felt, that individuality was the main "selling" point of T9A fan project.

    So, if i might add: I am often quite put-off by that always, always thinking in 4500Pts games. Even strongly dislike the number 4500 by now ;)

    9 grails knights are more than the rest of the knights in your list?

    There are still only 9 grail knights in your 7000 pts list. Even in your 10000 points list you only get to field 18 grail knights (given you wanna bring 2 scorpions and 2 trebuchets). I invite you to do the rareness calculations again for such an actual battle ;)

    I do get the idea behind 4500pts games and all (center of balancing gravity, relatively short games, thus useful for tournaments and stuff). That "The 4500pts Age"-mentality is fine with me, it is just not my cup of tea at all. Unlike prior to you-know-what-event, there are hardly any discussions on this forum about larger games, which saddens me. Like it would be forbidden to think out of that T4500A-box. Btw, is it???

    In the context of the above conversations, restricting grail knight unit sizes to 6 would imply, that those "proper battles" (imo: 8000-12000 or more points, lasting for an entire weekend) would only see 12 grails knights plus the characters. That´s not necessarily fun.

    Laugh at me, if you like, but I do buy, build and collect my (6) armies with around 7500+ total point values always in mind (actually i don´t care much about point values in the entire hobby process). Of course i might only field all my units of a faction once in a life time or, more likely, never. As utopic as this goal may be, dreaming of that maximized army shot, all painted (of course, lol), has always driven my love for the hobby.

    While being relatively sure, that I am not the only such utopist, I kindly ask everybody to keep us "dreamers" in mind when restricting unit sizes and limitations of T4500A. By doing so, T9A will be home to all kinds of players and hobbyists.

    Giladis wrote:

    How do you envision this brainstorm?
    Well, my gut feeling went towards something like "monster background/biology/fluff"-weeks within an army subforums. My first thought (always is, always was) greenskins: Gargantulas and smaller versions (plus the role the forest gobbos play), Wyverns, different kinds of Trolls, gnashers, giants, and possibly green idols. Probably forgot somebody, didn´t I?

    I see three problems, though, and would love to hear your opinion as well as further insights into the background design process:

    1) Any background design is presumably happening "behind closed doors" for various good reasons. It should, thus, be clearly labeled as brainstorming session. It would probably benefit from some kind of draft/starting point in order to not get too much out of hand. (?)

    2) I admit to having been quite lazy at adapting to the new background. Although I am becoming less nostalgic by the day and even started reading the 9th scroll in order to get a grasp of where the "new" fluff is going. Which makes myself not a good choice for embedding the background on a higher level. I would, however, love to participate in such a thread.

    3) T9A being model-agnostic is quite awesome. Blueprinting a very specific monster background might put off a few people. It might inspire others, though.

    In conclusion and as indicated at the beginning of this post: Individual solutions for all players are (and will remain) a main "selling"-point of T9A. So i tend towards leaving as much to the players as possible, while also offering concrete solutions to things.

    Pleasing everybody by finding the right equilibrium is even more utopic than me ever finishing those six 10000ish point army projects I mentioned above.

    Congruently, the right approach might then be having fun in the process of trying to get there.

    Does that make any sense? :sure:

    The post was edited 2 times, last by Erethriel ().

  • Plenty of people around here play game sizes other than 4.5k. Its just that this is the baseline for the game. 9th has never tried to discourage any size of game. My personal preference is 5k although I enjoy mixing it up.
    "When a man lies he murders some part of the world.. These are the pale deaths which men miscall their lives. All this I cannot bear to witness any longer. Cannot the kingdoms of Equitaine take me home" -Merlin/James Hetfield/KOE "To Live is To Die"
  • Peacemaker wrote:

    Erethriel wrote:

    @Giladis I feel like opening or participating in a brainstorm thread on fantasy biology. Monster by monster, if you like?
    That would be an interesting thread.I remember in the Orc and Goblin forum/background forum(it was at least a couple years back) there was much discussion on how their species should be represented since using "fungus" wasn't allowed due to copyright - and even if we could get away with orc fungus, I feel it's the lazy approach.

    Using my knowledge of biological reproduction, combined with economic and warfare statistics, and some sociology - I came up with an interesting tribal story that described how orcs are able to reproduce fast enough to have hordes of troops, how they figure out their hierarchy, lifespan, equipment, etc....


    ....I guess I should keep this on topic for KoE.
    The discussion on "too many pegasus, too many hippos, too many grail knights" in a single game I feel is purely a problem with players own sense of immersion.
    If you feel those fantasy creatures are extremely rare then don't put them in your list and tell your opponent to do the same and have a immersive battle.
    If you want to be competitive and throw all the cool fantasy creatures and apex predators into your list then you have create your narrative around that for your battle. In the fantasy setting, you are choosing to play the 1 big historical battle where all the pegasus, all the grain knights, all the carnasaurs and stegadons, etc... have been called to arms!
    It's a one off battle. When the battle is over, you rack up your models and play again in a "repeat" battle. It's playing a video game and loading the same battle scenario over and over.

    So biologically speaking, these creature are rare in the setting. But you keep loading the same historical battle that these units were in.

    ...it's a game, so that's why you have 9 grail knights in a KoE army even though in the fluff there are only 20 grail knights in the whole kingdom.
    There is a nice anime called goblin slayer who does go into this topic how goblins get offsprings...^^

                    

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  • Bretboy84 wrote:

    They just catch female human/elf and breed with them...right?
    Orcs and Goblins could also very well be harvesting the resource to spawn more offspring by fighting.

    (A bit like they used to create the force of their green magic independently of the winds of magic)

    If fighting greenskins would nourish some kind of enigmatic "green" generative tissue by causing havoc and violence, shamans could still play a roll in harvesting and chanelling this energy and great green idols would become a harvesting device.

    Regular OnG might not even be aware of their very swarm reproduction

    Such a reproduction mode would explain many things such as:

    - the runes and mysticism of greenskin understanders, such as chieftain and shamans

    - the reasoning why small tribes of greenskins encourage fighting among their own

    - the repeatedly occuring swarm phenomenon (kinda like grasshopper plagues, formerly called Waagh!). It´s not that greenskins from afar are joining a successful green tide due to its growing reputation, but rather, that victorious green tides grow more numerous as they remain unstoppable. At the same time, a green tide would run into logistical difficulties the further they forage from their placental domains.

    - their typically civilized enemies would have at least three practical ways to stop a green tide (some might not know how exactly):

    a) by breaking the wave through heavy casualties, hindering the gathering and chanelling of the green reproductive energy (every slain idol or shaman is a heavy disruption)
    b) by localizing and destroying the burrows housing the main generative tissues (green placenta). Often, they are guarded by dreaded monstrosities deep in a forest (gargantulas and the like), in cave systems (gnashers, trolls, and worse) or even transportable placentas have been seen (in nomadic greenskin tribes of the plains and wastelands).
    c) by something like the russian burned earth strategy against napoleon and the nazis. If you run from the green tide or disperse the horde you manage to hinder green reproductive rates.

    - Factions like the infernal dwarves could have figured out this reproductive biology of greenskins to the degree of (almost) controlling their population, thereby enslaving them. They could hold the green placental tissues hostage or something like that.

    - the notion, that surviving, dominant greenskin individuals would actually do grow stronger and bigger. Perhaps they turn into a new placental tissue as the ultimate "reward" for any legendary warlord. They thereby (perhaps unknowingly) serve the purpose of green expansion. They become one with the green and turn into a new burrow housing a novel mother tissue. Turns out, that the wardens of green reproduciton (the green clergy = the knowing) actually just manipulated the warbosses and hordes for one aim only: The spreading of the green plague to one day cover the lands of men, elves and dwarves in a wabbling, slimy green placenta.

    - how a green tide might suddenly collapse due to an ecological disaster, such as a disconnect or overpopulation (as in grasshopper plagues)

    - how some wiser races might manage to keep their lands free of greenskins, such as parts of the lands of the three elf nations or the saurians

    - why different species of greenskins would have their own cultures, mysticism, rituals and divine places. Some live in symbiosis with other species such as giant spiders, troll hags, or giant gnashers which all the reproduce quite similarily

    - list goes on and on ... but I´ll give you a break ... what do you think of this theme?

    I like it a lot better than impregnating elves and stuff one by one.

    There are a lot of background synergies with other factions in terms of warfare solutions, knowledge about the green ecology, etc.

    The post was edited 2 times, last by Erethriel ().

  • Erethriel wrote:

    Well, my gut feeling went towards something like "monster background/biology/fluff"-weeks within an army subforums. My first thought (always is, always was) greenskins: Gargantulas and smaller versions (plus the role the forest gobbos play), Wyverns, different kinds of Trolls, gnashers, giants, and possibly green idols. Probably forgot somebody, didn´t I?

    I see three problems, though, and would love to hear your opinion as well as further insights into the background design process:

    1) Any background design is presumably happening "behind closed doors" for various good reasons. It should, thus, be clearly labeled as brainstorming session. It would probably benefit from some kind of draft/starting point in order to not get too much out of hand. (?)

    2) I admit to having been quite lazy at adapting to the new background. Although I am becoming less nostalgic by the day and even started reading the 9th scroll in order to get a grasp of where the "new" fluff is going. Which makes myself not a good choice for embedding the background on a higher level. I would, however, love to participate in such a thread.

    3) T9A being model-agnostic is quite awesome. Blueprinting a very specific monster background might put off a few people. It might inspire others, though.

    In conclusion and as indicated at the beginning of this post: Individual solutions for all players are (and will remain) a main "selling"-point of T9A. So i tend towards leaving as much to the players as possible, while also offering concrete solutions to things.

    Pleasing everybody by finding the right equilibrium is even more utopic than me ever finishing those six 10000ish point army projects I mentioned above.

    Congruently, the right approach might then be having fun in the process of trying to get there.

    Does that make any sense?
    Having additional brainstorming by the users ahead of LAB development could be interesting but it would mainly be to create a pool of ideas BGT could sift through to see if there is anything interesting/applicable.

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  • Giladis wrote:

    Having additional brainstorming by the users ahead of LAB development could be interesting but it would mainly be to create a pool of ideas BGT could sift through to see if there is anything interesting/applicable.
    I wasn´t happy with my gut feeling either. It shouldn´t be open to debate. If at all, some kind of voting or feedback over educated drafts (e.g. the above placental idea for greenskins)

    I have, however, given a bit more thought on how to inspire you guys on ecological things.

    It´s about actual fluff solutions to that food pyramid turned upside down and on how a megafauna works (=times and places in earth history, where there were many co-existing very large creatures/where gigantism was common)

    If i may elaborate one more time, gentlemen? Give it a like, if you don´t mind hearing more on monster biology in this thread. I don´t mean to annoy anybody, but wouldn´t really know where else to leave my thoughts atm.

    (the only connection to KoE is, that we are a monster slayer nation which has access to pegasi and hippogriffs as mounts)
  • @Erethriel feel free to open a topic in the Background and Stories subforum and elaborate to your heart's content. BGT members frequent that subforum on a weekly basis looking for inspiration and ideas. Depending on the discussion at hand we sometimes join in :)

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  • Don't think so. Best just to quote them in the OP.

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