WDG Army book discussion - 2.05 till... now

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  • WDG Army book discussion - 2.05 till... now

    With 2.05 approaching i'm making this new post to gather community's feelings about our armybook.

    Do not hesitate to share your opinion, positive or negative.

    Just remember to do it in a way that respect other users, and keep in mind that the designers are volunteers, not professionals.

    The teams (ADT, RT, LT, ...) do their best to bring us the most adequate tool to go on with our passion.

    DL / WDG Community Support

    Playtester

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Rothulf ().

  • Just started this army and played 2 games but I already noticed:

    Negative:
    - Lack of interesting abilities post-deployment. Vanguard especially, don't expect us to get scouting or ambushing (barbs maybe?) but a close combat army should have this, even DH have it and they are supposed to be slow.
    - Lack of chaff clearing, hellfire and magic is not strong enough to deal with it
    - Lack of versatility. we have Marks but only a few are useful, especially for our core warriors. Also, a lot of units are not really doing what they are supposed to.
    - Lack of break resistance. We simply can't do enough damage to not break, especially our core warriors.

    Positive:
    - Chosen seem to kick butt and my opponents noticed. Greed Chosen have done wonders for me against VS.
    - Although pricey, my Chosen Lord slaughtered rank and file with ease to somewhat turn the combat and again, the fear factor was great. Warriors simply bled CR against the monsters that got in (being combo-charged hurts).
    - EH is has nice versatility which can be switched.
    - Our sorcerer can fight, which is nice.
    - Lore is Awesome :)
    :UD: :WDG: :DE:
  • I think everything has been mentioned more than 10 times already in the 540 page long topic?

    To summarize my feelings:

    The historical context: I’m a worshipper of the dark gods for more than 15 years now. I’ve always played warriors and daemons till present day. Some design and rules changes during this period were good, others were bad, but I always enjoyed slaying the petty mortals. The introduction of the seven sins was a cool one and my army adapted. My only concern was, and remains, the constant negative changes to our army entries: point cost and effectiveness in CC. Really looking forward to the next update…

    The good:
    -diversity: enough unit entries
    -kill, maim, burn! Rush forward and decapitate! OR play the avoidance wars.

    The bad:
    -our army seems to work only with a few units: EH, chosen, chosen knights, warriors, basic chariots
    -where is the affordable chaff?
    -We have diversity in unit entries, but the latter is way too overpriced
    -Synergy: we need to excel at CC, but we don’t because of the overpricing and lack of synergy. I have played many games and can say that other armies are way better in CC than we are… Look at VC, SA, EoS, DH and even ID… We are not worthy of our gods.
    -What the heck is that shrine? Make it great again…
    -Our characters are becoming boring to play with: EH has become a ‘must pick’ for competitive play. The wizard needs a better CC profile but is okey, the doom- and chosen lords are way too expensive and lose against the CC characters of other armies. It’s becoming embarrassing to play WDG with CC characters.

    -Why are my chaos knights so expensive? :’(
    Historian, librarian, wargamer.
  • positive:

    -some nice new design ideas like EH and hellmaw, very refreshing and unique

    -hellfire as heredetary is nice, but complexity is to high to be reliable

    -basically the design ideas of different characters like EH, FDA, doomlord and chosen lord are nice. Unfortunately only EH is competitive and playable atm.

    -chosen design of strongest infantry fits well to ASAW

    -design idea of irredeemables is basically a good thing, but units are way to pricey

    -warrior chariot is a reliable entry

    -veil walker as a pure design, not talking about price


    Negative:

    -everything in the book is extremly pricey and it feels that the entrys cant return their high prices in game performance

    -except from hellmaw very low tactical play possibilities, due to lack of special deployment/vanguard/scout

    -only few entrys in book have average-good price/performance-ratio (EH, CK, chosen, chariot)

    -Most irredeemable and feldrak entrys are not competitive atm

    -battleshrine is a joke design- and cost wise

    -veil walker way to expensive on sorcerer

    -most characters, except EH and sorcerer, are not competitive, design wise and cost wise
  • These summaries are interesting, thankyou.

    My super-short summary summary would be: price.

    I think the next version of the book is improved in this respect.
    People want t9a/RT to simultaneously square, triangle, and icosagon the circle, whilst vehemently attacking it if there are any corners.

    ID blog
    Dan ventures into the lands of smoke and fire

    Basic beginners tactics
    No 'tactics for beginners' thread?
  • And to share Kathal's post from the previous discussion topic. Better written than I did :)


    If we go back to 1.0:

    • Being able to play any close combat style in one way or another. Wanted to play Cav centric list? Jep, gotcha (Knights with Daemonic Weapons and good Marks, Crushers, Cav Lords with good item builds). Wanted to play MMU? Jep, Inspire Greatness and Nine Tailed Banner said hi (both eased the problems of the banner slot for the units). MMU? Battle Shrine. Monster Mash? Chars on Daemonic Mount, Blood Beast (although not that good as it used to be), EDC as one of the best Monsters back than. Flying Circus? Jup, Disc, Dragon, Manticore and Flying Monster, you could play double (real) Chimera and Dragon.
      Just Special deployment and some wonky things like the Centaur list was not playable, and for good reasons, cause those are unique to other armies (BH, DH and SE mainly).
    • Having unit, which actually have a decent shot at beating the other armies dedicated CC units one on one (PPP Warriors, Wrath Chosen, Crusher, Pest/Wrath/Change Knights, Dragon Centaurs and Spear Barbs) while not being lopsided (so not a rofl stomp)
    • Having one of the best customisable Characters in the game while not being broken (good Marks combined with good Mounts combined with actually decent equipment (BRB, thank you) combined with unique Gifts) which were on top of the food chain as other purely dedicated non Monster none utility CC Characters (Blood Dragon Vampire, SE Wild Huntsmen/Blade Dancer/Shifter guy (depending on what exact patch), Mino Lord and KoE Dukes). However, not because of stacking of special rules (that guy only ever had one, at most two) but because of good stat checking mechanics and equipment.
    • Having one of the most fun movement phases
    Those 4 points are why I loved 1.x Warriors. I felt like I had infinite playstyles, they where just focused on the CC aspect (which IS and SHOULD be the main aspect) instead of a more spread out style like other armies have and had.


    If I compare it to the 204 book I see the following:
    • All anvils are gone (no longer Pest Mark, no Trolls)
    • Grinding aspect went down (no longer DW, Wrath, Change or Poison Banner)
    • Most of the CC centric playstyles got gutted (Hero.Hammer, Flying Circus, MSU, Cav centric and MMU (is still somewhat playable, but compared to 1.3 :puke: )). Now the army has what, 1 functioning and one really crippled playstyle left?
    • Characters lost a ton of customisation (no Marks/Gifts for most of them (Barb Chief, Sorcerer and Doomlord), only the Chosen Lord has access to them) BUT the Exalted Herald, which traded customisation in for flexibility.
    • Chaos Lord sucks balls. Like srsly, compare them to any 1.3 pendant and you will just cry. I'm paying MORE points for a WORSE statline and WORSE special rules while also getting WORSE mounts for which I pay MORE points. Heck, even the Doomlord is a bad joke compared to the Chosen Lord with Path of the Fallen Gift (worse statline, no Marks, worse equipment worse special rules).
      I mean, come on guys, srsly? He went from a pretty darn good while pricey choice to the by far worst unit in the whole book. The only reason I would ever touch the guy would be because of my masochism approach regarding the game, or because I want to play the Entropic Aura, which is the only way for that guy to beat any CC guy at all. HbE Spear guy? RIP. Dwarven King? RIP. SE Char (Wild Huntsmen or Blade Dancer)? Another one bites the dust. VC Lord? Lol, even without Blood Dragon Bloodline they beat us by a mile. Heck, even a Mino Lord (which was a quite even fight back than) just one shots the guy, with the best defensive build (aka 1+/4++ with T6). Primal Fury + Battle Focus + Blessed Inscription says hi...
      Heck, if he would be at least CHEAP for what he offers I might think about playing him again, but I can get a full unit of SCORING Wrath Halberd Crusher for one guy (or even starting the second unit if I take anything but a Krakadan). Heck, even a FDA is cheaper than a full fledged guy on a Pony...
    • A crappy movement phase. If you have played 1.0 and 1.3 Warriors and compare them now, it would be the same as reducing the Movement of the KoE Ponies down to 6/12 or Dwarves back to 3/6 and disallow to March with Copters. You just feel crippled and helpless while you watch the enemy doing w/e he wants. That is also the reason, why I'm playing all 4 Irredeemable units, at least I can do something in the movement phase.
    Don't get me wrong, I like the background and everything associated regarding it from the design approach, but putting the whole army book in a hardcore bondage film and than wondering, why people do not like it, welp, looks like that people in charge have actually zero ideas regarding the army (and no, the argument of "but I played a tournament with it" is bullsh!t, how much does five games with the same list says about a WHOLE FREAKING BOOK?!?!).


    Gosh, I could fart on a piece of paper and would get a more coherent army together than the mess the WDG book is atm.


    Greetings,
    Kathal
    Historian, librarian, wargamer.
  • Should the old thread be renamed in celebration of it's ascension to father chaos side as an exalted herald?

    This isn't a minor achievement after all. First time this happens to a thread here. :)
    All things wargaming. My super entertaining hobby blog where anything wargaming related can happen.

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  • DanT wrote:

    Let me ask something:

    What is the thing that WotDG previously had that was a unique army trait or theme?
    WDG in its previous manifestations (including Warriors of Chaos) to some extent had the same issue, but at that point the army had a strong shooting phase, some nice magic and synergistic parts like hard target aura.

    We definitely lost all that going from 1 to 2. But it doesn't look like we gained anything.

    So before we were more generic but we could do more things; now we are unique in a negative way.
  • Warboss_R wrote:

    DanT wrote:

    Let me ask something:

    What is the thing that WotDG previously had that was a unique army trait or theme?
    WDG in its previous manifestations (including Warriors of Chaos) to some extent had the same issue, but at that point the army had a strong shooting phase, some nice magic and synergistic parts like hard target aura.
    We definitely lost all that going from 1 to 2. But it doesn't look like we gained anything.

    So before we were more generic but we could do more things; now we are unique in a negative way.
    Right, but this doesn't answer what I asked.
    Even assuming this list of things is true (I am sceptical of the strong shooting phase, but let us ignore that for now), this is a list of things that WotDG had that other armies had.
    Is a strong shooting phase what you want WotDG to have?
    People want t9a/RT to simultaneously square, triangle, and icosagon the circle, whilst vehemently attacking it if there are any corners.

    ID blog
    Dan ventures into the lands of smoke and fire

    Basic beginners tactics
    No 'tactics for beginners' thread?
  • Negative (do not have)
    Wdg has only 2 phases

    Has no battle focus

    Has no hatred (pls dont count the.flying obscenity)

    Has no cac advantages

    Positive (do have)

    Has expensive unites
    Has redundant and useless units

    Has an armor that is shredded like others in this ap gameplay but has fewer units

    Waiting for 205



    Ps: forgot. Having rule team and.price team separate is silly.i hope at least they talk to eachothers when decide things otherwise it s eveb worst

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Shukran ().

  • DanT wrote:

    Even assuming this list of things is true ... this is a list of things that WotDG had that other armies had
    No, as far as I am aware WoC and WDG v1 didn't have any positive unique points.

    DanT wrote:

    Is a strong shooting phase what you want WotDG to have?

    No, if I was God of WDG design I would move more towards unique mechanics focused on grinding in combat and stronger magic, and make sure the army moves away from avoidance (it's unfluffy for WDG to play avoidance).

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Warboss_R'ok ().

  • Warboss_R wrote:

    DanT wrote:

    Even assuming this list of things is true ... this is a list of things that WotDG had that other armies had
    No, as far as I am aware WoC and WDG v1 didn't have any positive unique points.
    So WotDG haven't lost a unique positive point? Have I understood you correctly?

    DanT wrote:

    Is a strong shooting phase what you want WotDG to have?
    No, if I was God of WDG design I would move more towards unique mechanics focused on grinding in combat and stronger magic, and make sure the army moves away from avoidance (it's unfluffy for WDG to play avoidance).
    Interesting. Are there not people here exactly asking for a more interesting movement game and bemoaning the loss of said movement game?

    (Heck, my HBE list got called avoidance in another thread because it uses its movement to combo charge a narrow part of the enemy army on turn 2, so I'm not even sure I know what anyone means when they say avoidance anymore).
    People want t9a/RT to simultaneously square, triangle, and icosagon the circle, whilst vehemently attacking it if there are any corners.

    ID blog
    Dan ventures into the lands of smoke and fire

    Basic beginners tactics
    No 'tactics for beginners' thread?
  • WDG was an army able to put a lot of pressure on the game with several Small/Medium units able to do a lot of damage in a few amount of time in melee. The opponent had to chose wich thread to focus before he got engaged and try to avoid some fights at all cost.

    Now we have a different situation where WDG try to engage some fights while avoiding the strong units we cannot handle and survive ranged attacks. Then once we engage the enemy we have to hope that we will be able to dispell the multiple hex/buffs that could otherwise turn the battle to the advantage of our enemy. Finally we have to get rid of Buff/hex wagon as soon as possible since they also could turn a fight we could won to a sure loss.

    WDG was able to play several lists:
    • standard infantry list
    • large infantry list
    • monster mash list
    • cavalry list
    Of those, only one remain viable at the moment: cavalry.

    We used to be able to have different character approaches now only 3 are common: EH (most of the time), Sorcerer (less common but still alove), Entropic aura lord (rare...).

    Also something that annoys me is that we were supposed to have a brand new "independent" approach or our lists.
    This was sold as "Units are strong when alone, do not need character to perform well".

    This turned to: Units are fearless, cannot flee, and your character will not help you by having leadership 8.

    We end up with an army that is unable to fullfill its role (winning fights in melee) and risks more than most other armies when doing so (break test are at 8 at best , usually without reroll since our bsb option is expensive as hell).

    This should be fixed.


    In order to solve those the army needs:
    1. A special leadership approach that reflects the tenacity of our units, especially the favoured ones (since I believe Exiled will be ok with 205).
    2. Army wide rules to help in melee, not something from the rulebook? np but something else then.
    3. Less drawbacks (for favour or items), no shooting, no special deployment, few model counts, ... seems we got enough drawbacks already.

    DL / WDG Community Support

    Playtester

  • DanT wrote:

    Interesting. Are there not people here exactly asking for a more interesting movement game and bemoaning the loss of said movement game?
    Hellforged units from WDG shouldn't be avoiding the EoS deathstar, it should be the other way around. The gameplay is getting detached from the fluff.

    Also, I think it makes sense for WDG to be strong in magic rather than average or weak.
  • WDG can't (IMO) rely on armour to be good in combat. Armour will always be a defensive stat that is extremely common (because of how armour is used to smooth out the problems with Res and wounding) therefore AP will always be extremely common.

    We need new mechanics that encourage a grind. I'm not really sure what, but I have a few ideas.

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Warboss_R'ok ().

  • Warboss_R'ok wrote:

    Hellforged units from WDG shouldn't be avoiding the EoS deathstar, it should be the other way around. The gameplay is getting detached from the fluff.
    Also, I think it makes sense for WDG to be strong in magic rather than average or weak.
    Eugghf. I wrote a reply to this and deleted it.
    I'm not sure we agree on premises enough for there to be a worthwhile conversation here.
    I certainly don't have time right now to do this conversation in the level of detail required for it to be worthwhile.
    People want t9a/RT to simultaneously square, triangle, and icosagon the circle, whilst vehemently attacking it if there are any corners.

    ID blog
    Dan ventures into the lands of smoke and fire

    Basic beginners tactics
    No 'tactics for beginners' thread?