Raising champions is unfair

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  • It's very powerful. So don't charge your single model character into such a unit on its own...
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  • Per the background, UD undead *are* definitely the same models called back from the grave - the underworld is closed and so they cannot die.

    If the exact same guy who challenged you pulls themselves back together, the challenge is not over.


    So yeah. The real question is why raise spells can't revive characters. Not sure we have a canon answer, I personally like the idea that you can bind a unit together mystically with necromancy such that their cohesion as a squad makes them easier to reraise.

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  • Dragus wrote:

    Or we could simply not allow to arise champions. Simple and effective.
    We could, we won't but we definitely could.

    ------------------------------------------------------

    Because there's the counter argument of maybe you should get better at the game instead of wanting changes.
    Plus there's the thing where it means you can just challenge the untouchable character that'll solo your army that we allow to exist because if we changed challenges we have to change them as well and if we don't let players bring back heroes to re-challenge then how do you beat those untouchable characters?
    You can't that's how.

    Nevermined two of them would be totally unstoppable by that logic, nobody takes two, nobody is that good at the game.

    So in short, champions have to be raised back because of whatever my sound and unbreakable argument was that I used.


    /sarcasm.
    ------------------------------------------------------

    The post was edited 1 time, last by theunwantedbeing ().

  • WhammeWhamme wrote:

    So yeah. The real question is why raise spells can't revive characters. Not sure we have a canon answer, I personally like the idea that you can bind a unit together mystically with necromancy such that their cohesion as a squad makes them easier to reraise.
    I like that. It seems intuitive to me that raising a more powerful person would take longer or otherwise would be too complicated to do on-the-fly. Maybe raising the body is easy but without the right spirit the body is just another chump.
  • Dragus wrote:

    Or we could simply not allow to arise champions. Simple and effective.
    Champions are just the guys who happen to lead their unit, as it's been said, they are selected quite fast and don't have to many special skills about them, so letting the squadleader be ressurected with the rest of his unit seems understandable, letting the squadleader challenge someone with real skill and leaders abilities does not.

    theunwantedbeing wrote:

    Dragus wrote:

    Or we could simply not allow to arise champions. Simple and effective.
    We could, we won't but we definitely could.
    Because there's the counter argument of maybe you should get better at the game instead of wanting changes.
    Even if you don't like what people say, you could at least try to keep your responses polite and not insulting.



    Plus there's the thing where it means you can just challenge the untouchable character that'll solo your army that we allow to exist because if we changed challenges we have to change them as well and if we don't let players bring back heroes to re-challenge then how do you beat those untouchable characters?
    You can't that's how.
    I don't see unbeatable characters in the game anymore, balance has seen to that.



    Nevermined two of them would be totally unstoppable by that logic, nobody takes two, nobody is that good at the game.
    Even if there is a unstoppable character, it would exist because of stats and equipment, not because of players skill.


    So in short, champions have to be raised back because of whatever my sound and unbreakable argument was that I used.
  • theunwantedbeing wrote:

    We could, we won't but we definitely could.
    Because there's the counter argument of maybe you should get better at the game instead of wanting changes.
    Plus there's the thing where it means you can just challenge the untouchable character that'll solo your army that we allow to exist because if we changed challenges we have to change them as well and if we don't let players bring back heroes to re-challenge then how do you beat those untouchable characters?
    You can't that's how.

    Nevermined two of them would be totally unstoppable by that logic, nobody takes two, nobody is that good at the game.

    So in short, champions have to be raised back because of whatever my sound and unbreakable argument was that I used.
    While I don't think we should change how raising models works (or think it is overpowered)...what about the armies that cannot raise champions back? Are you saying that they should or do just roll over and die as soon as a strong+fast character touches the table?

    In other words. This was both a very wimpy argument, and pretty rude...I expected better of you.

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  • Herminard wrote:

    Champions should become an immortal part of the unit on the same basis as the rest of the command group - and the champion should recieve more interesting tasks than to be the fodder of greater foes.

    I can from the top of my head not think of a single military entity where there were not some primus inter pares at work. @Taki?

    To not render the challenge mechanic obsolete - perhaps allowing the Champion to issue challenges as per now is fine - but if he dies, the regiment that he belongs to will immediately and instantaneously nod to each other and one of them will pick up the headwear of their fallen champion.

    Since this would ofc lead to alot of challenges - there could be a VPS mechanic for winning challenges too. 100 bonus points for every single time a challenge has been resolved with a mortal outcome?
    First to answer the question; have there been military elements without a first among equals/ sergeant/ lieutentant/ etc?
    I don't know. It could happen in cases of democratic military companies (for instance some Caribbean pirates or Xenophone's mercenaries). My feeling is that it would be rare.

    As to game mechanics, I feel that champions and command should be simple unit upgrades, and I don't feel they should be able to challenge or be challenged without special game rules (for example magic items, unit special rules or army special rules)

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  • Some good points are made here, but I think beside the raising concerns, this really could be a good solution for the game and the role of the champions:

    rolan wrote:

    An easy solution to this problem AND to make challenges less annoying would be to allow champions to accept challenges, but not to issue challenges.
    This way, it wouldn't matter if champions can be raised again, and the ridiculous effect of a lowly champion stopping dragon lords from attacking a unit would also be gone. this was even proposed a couple of times before.

    The post was edited 1 time, last by JeroBeam ().

  • JeroBeam wrote:

    Some got points are made here, but I think beside the raising concerns, this really could be a good solution for the game and the role of the champions:

    rolan wrote:

    An easy solution to this problem AND to make challenges less annoying would be to allow champions to accept challenges, but not to issue challenges.
    This way, it wouldn't matter if champions can be raised again, and the ridiculous effect of a lowly champion stopping dragon lords from attacking a unit would also be gone. this was even proposed a couple of times before.

    I think raising is ok but above one seems like a fit solution for the problem addressed. Really big fellas like Star Dragon Prince, Feldrak Ancient etc. could have special rule avoiding challenges; but on the other hand this could mess up the overall balance and mechanics too much (this is really hard to picture what it really does to meta and game in general).
  • Taki wrote:

    Herminard wrote:

    Champions should become an immortal part of the unit on the same basis as the rest of the command group - and the champion should recieve more interesting tasks than to be the fodder of greater foes.

    I can from the top of my head not think of a single military entity where there were not some primus inter pares at work. @Taki?

    To not render the challenge mechanic obsolete - perhaps allowing the Champion to issue challenges as per now is fine - but if he dies, the regiment that he belongs to will immediately and instantaneously nod to each other and one of them will pick up the headwear of their fallen champion.

    Since this would ofc lead to alot of challenges - there could be a VPS mechanic for winning challenges too. 100 bonus points for every single time a challenge has been resolved with a mortal outcome?
    First to answer the question; have there been military elements without a first among equals/ sergeant/ lieutentant/ etc?I don't know. It could happen in cases of democratic military companies (for instance some Caribbean pirates or Xenophone's mercenaries). My feeling is that it would be rare.

    As to game mechanics, I feel that champions and command should be simple unit upgrades, and I don't feel they should be able to challenge or be challenged without special game rules (for example magic items, unit special rules or army special rules)

    Aye. Leader of a lesser group -> challenger of kings is quite a leap.
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  • Dragus wrote:

    Hello folks. I hope some game designer reads this post, and maybe he will agree with me at my point of view.

    The problem here is rule 13.K.c. "Raise wounds". It stats that you must raise champions that have been removed as casualties, and then the rest of R&F models.

    My point is that, once your champion is dead, it should remain dead for the rest of the game, exactly the same as characters.

    - They represent special individuals, not as important as real characters, but surely they are not mere warriors.

    - It creates an unfair advantage for armies capable of doing this. Theese kind of units can stop a powerfull character forever. I get this is the purpose of all champions, but I think that ONE champion per unit is enough.

    Thanks for your answers.
    They don't really represent special individuals, characters do. The champion is often just the most grizzled of the bunch (try watching "All quiet on the western front"). If he dies then the second most veteran guy replaces him

    As for it being unfair.... pretty random just throwing that out there don't you think? Especially since there is plenty of counterplay

    - Raises ain't autocast. Try dispels or binding scrolls
    - Get your powerful character a challenge monkey (cheap character or powerful champion)
    - Overkill also crumbles. Killing a Skeleton champion with max overkill is still 5 models dying. Hardly a disaster

    Armies capable of doing this is... what about half of them? Druidism exist after all
  • rolan wrote:

    An easy solution to this problem AND to make challenges less annoying would be to allow champions to accept challenges, but not to issue challenges.
    This way, it wouldn't matter if champions can be raised again, and the ridiculous effect of a lowly champion stopping dragon lords from attacking a unit would also be gone. this was even proposed a couple of times before.
    He should accept challenge only if there is a hero on his side of combat. Cost: 10 points. Ez
  • Wesser wrote:

    Dragus wrote:


    They don't really represent special individuals, characters do. The champion is often just the most grizzled of the bunch (try watching "All quiet on the western front"). If he dies then the second most veteran guy replaces him
    As for it being unfair.... pretty random just throwing that out there don't you think? Especially since there is plenty of counterplay

    - Raises ain't autocast. Try dispels or binding scrolls
    - Get your powerful character a challenge monkey (cheap character or powerful champion)
    - Overkill also crumbles. Killing a Skeleton champion with max overkill is still 5 models dying. Hardly a disaster

    Armies capable of doing this is... what about half of them? Druidism exist after all
    "They don't really represent special individuals, characters do." --> Well, they represent special individuals, although LESS special. Completely normal individuals are R&C models.

    "Raises ain't autocast. Try dispels or binding scrolls" --> It's a 4+ spell, replicable. Not autocast, but too easy to this effect. Arising a bunch of normal skeletons is fair. Arising the same champion one and another time is unfair.

    "Get your powerful character a challenge monkey" --> Well, you have to pay for this challenge monkey AND achieve to charge with both characters at the time. Pretty difficult if we compare it with the 4+ replicable spell.

    "Overkill also crumbles.". --> 5 models dying? Have you considered other static modifiers, such as ranks, standards and so on?

    "Druidism exist after all" -->Equaly unfair. But, at least, a little less anoying (the spell is less powerfull)
  • Dragus wrote:

    Wesser wrote:

    Dragus wrote:


    They don't really represent special individuals, characters do. The champion is often just the most grizzled of the bunch (try watching "All quiet on the western front"). If he dies then the second most veteran guy replaces himAs for it being unfair.... pretty random just throwing that out there don't you think? Especially since there is plenty of counterplay

    - Raises ain't autocast. Try dispels or binding scrolls
    - Get your powerful character a challenge monkey (cheap character or powerful champion)
    - Overkill also crumbles. Killing a Skeleton champion with max overkill is still 5 models dying. Hardly a disaster

    Armies capable of doing this is... what about half of them? Druidism exist after all
    "They don't really represent special individuals, characters do." --> Well, they represent special individuals, although LESS special. Completely normal individuals are R&C models.
    "Raises ain't autocast. Try dispels or binding scrolls" --> It's a 4+ spell, replicable. Not autocast, but too easy to this effect. Arising a bunch of normal skeletons is fair. Arising the same champion one and another time is unfair. Arise being too easy to spam could be an argument I could follow, but not that one

    "Get your powerful character a challenge monkey" --> Well, you have to pay for this challenge monkey AND achieve to charge with both characters at the time. Pretty difficult if we compare it with the 4+ replicable spell. Put them in the same unit? Most VC lists do exactly that. And in the case of Skeletons ... most other unit champions shouldn't have trouble winning that duel

    "Overkill also crumbles.". --> 5 models dying? Have you considered other static modifiers, such as ranks, standards and so on? Why would I need to? If you have some hyper-crazy lord then you kill the champion and generate 4 extra CR and crumble 4 extra guys. When engaging your uber-character into a combat like that I kinda assume you've taken care that the odds are stacked in your favour despite him being challenged out

    "Druidism exist after all" -->Equaly unfair. But, at least, a little less anoying (the spell is less powerfull).
    I don't even have strong feelings personally about the ability to raise champions.. perhaps because playing with or against VC I've never had it decide a game or even a combat.

    But I'm annoyed that you claim something is unfair and want it removed despite there being several counters for it.

    Perhaps I could be persuaded that the more elite units in VC/UD (leaving Druidism be for a moment) like Wights, Vampires and monstrous infantry shouldn't have raisable champions owing to them being more aware champions of undeath.

    But Undead Core units already have precious little to recommend them and tying down the enemy is pretty much what they do. So that would be going nowhere if I have my way. Not without compensation at the very least
  • I think the problem does not lie with the champion that is getting raised, its with the challenge rules. How is it that a Goblin champion can for example challenge a Chosen Lord without being laughed at before the lord just moves on to slaughter the unit?

    Or in this case, any characters who can simply move past the skeleton with the shiniest armor and wreck others.
    I can understand when a Harbinger or other character interferes but regular champions shouldn't have that power.
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  • Ciara wrote:

    Perhaps you are right.

    But its more of a counter to a killy characters. You get rid of that. No one will take champs, meta changes, more cowboys etc. It might change game.
    These plus few dozen other things you cannot see outright at this moment.
  • rolan wrote:

    Dragus wrote:

    Or we could simply not allow to arise champions. Simple and effective.
    Champions are just the guys who happen to lead their unit, as it's been said, they are selected quite fast and don't have to many special skills about them, so letting the squadleader be ressurected with the rest of his unit seems understandable, letting the squadleader challenge someone with real skill and leaders abilities does not.
    Except the rulebook disagrees and states champions are not replaced in such a fashion in 19.D, it also states that they have their own health pool in 14.G.b, but this is ignored for raising.

    Champions are more than a squad leader in the rules, they're also an expert fighter. That argument doesn't work as explicitly stated in the rulebook but has been iterated by quite a few on this thread.

    Wesser wrote:

    Dragus wrote:

    Hello folks. I hope some game designer reads this post, and maybe he will agree with me at my point of view.

    The problem here is rule 13.K.c. "Raise wounds". It stats that you must raise champions that have been removed as casualties, and then the rest of R&F models.

    My point is that, once your champion is dead, it should remain dead for the rest of the game, exactly the same as characters.

    - They represent special individuals, not as important as real characters, but surely they are not mere warriors.

    - It creates an unfair advantage for armies capable of doing this. Theese kind of units can stop a powerfull character forever. I get this is the purpose of all champions, but I think that ONE champion per unit is enough.

    Thanks for your answers.
    They don't really represent special individuals, characters do. The champion is often just the most grizzled of the bunch (try watching "All quiet on the western front"). If he dies then the second most veteran guy replaces him
    As for it being unfair.... pretty random just throwing that out there don't you think? Especially since there is plenty of counterplay

    - Raises ain't autocast. Try dispels or binding scrolls
    - Get your powerful character a challenge monkey (cheap character or powerful champion)
    - Overkill also crumbles. Killing a Skeleton champion with max overkill is still 5 models dying. Hardly a disaster

    Armies capable of doing this is... what about half of them? Druidism exist after all
    Again, literally the opposite of what is said in the rulebook where it states they are special and not easily replaced.

    The only thing I find weird is that in the rulebook it states they have their own health pool (the reason raise spells don't affect characters in the unit is because they have their own pool) and that they can't be easily replaced, right after reading they are the most easily raised.