Are SE disappearing in your meta?

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  • Fnarrr wrote:

    That's generally been the problem with SE avoidance, if you don't have the tools to mitigate them they absolutely wreck you.

    Yep, see Dan's RPS comments from earlier.

    Don't have the tools to deal with it? You lose without getting to play the game.
    Have a lot of magic missiles? SE avoidance army is now just playing to mitigate the loss.

    That aint fun or interesting.
  • NFA wrote:

    Yep, see Dan's RPS comments from earlier.

    Don't have the tools to deal with it? You lose without getting to play the game.
    Have a lot of magic missiles? SE avoidance army is now just playing to mitigate the loss.

    That aint fun or interesting.
    I think my latest avoidance list does a fair job of mitigating the bad matchups for avoidance, or at least giving the SE player options.
    But it is also an abomination of a list that should die in a fire. And is gonna be really sh!tty for more than 50% of its opponents.



    @CariadocThorne @Hachiman Taro
    I wrote a long response to you guys... then decided I didn't care enough and the discussion wasn't worth the effort.
    Suffice to say, you guys haven't convinced me and I haven't convinced you guys... *shrugs*
    Thankfully, it is no longer of any import whether you have convinced me, and I no longer care about whether I've convinced you, so we can all just move on :)
    Being supportive & giving useful criticism aren't mutually exclusive.
    Are you supportive of the project? Do your posts reflect that?

    List repository and links HERE
    Basic beginners tactics HERE
  • DanT wrote:

    NFA wrote:

    Yep, see Dan's RPS comments from earlier.

    Don't have the tools to deal with it? You lose without getting to play the game.
    Have a lot of magic missiles? SE avoidance army is now just playing to mitigate the loss.

    That aint fun or interesting.
    I think my latest avoidance list does a fair job of mitigating the bad matchups for avoidance, or at least giving the SE player options.But it is also an abomination of a list that should die in a fire. And is gonna be really sh!tty for more than 50% of its opponents.



    @CariadocThorne @Hachiman Taro
    I wrote a long response to you guys... then decided I didn't care enough and the discussion wasn't worth the effort.
    Suffice to say, you guys haven't convinced me and I haven't convinced you guys... *shrugs*
    Thankfully, it is no longer of any import whether you have convinced me, and I no longer care about whether I've convinced you, so we can all just move on :)
    Well that's kind of a pity in one way at least. I feel like even if no one gets convinced in an argument (and rarely do they) the fact there's almost always some truth to each point of view means the seeds that get planted end up germinating into some kind of thesis - antithesis = synthesis process at some point anyway. At least if we're open to it. We all have things to learn.

    Still, if you don't dig it, might be for the best. Good luck with the lists, watch out for fireballs ;)

    Data Analysis

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Hachiman Taro ().

  • Updating info with Spanish final info


    For example, in Spain official tournaments current year.

    CRT Águilas. 2 SE out of 80 players. 10 pyromage (not counted other heavy-missile magicians)

    TOE Talavera. 6 SE out of 112. 12 pyromage (not counted other heavy-missile magicians)

    TOE Valencia. 3 SE out of 80. 9 pyromage (not counted other heavy-missile magicians)

    TOE Fuengirola (Málaga). 4 SE players out of 96. 10 pyromages (not considering other heavy-missile casters)



    TOE Zaragoza. 6 SE out of 112.
    15 pyromages (not considering other heavy-missile casters)


    TOE Menorca 1 SE out 42.
    10 pyromages (not considering other heavy-missile casters).

    TOE Águilas 4 SE out of 96.

    In all of them, most (with one exception) made regular to very bad clasification. Player skill can affect this point

    Spanish National Final Championship (winners Will go to ETC in Novi Sad representing Spain). 4 SE out of 112. (Less represented army bar/except HBE).
    None of top teams has SE in their rosters.

    @DanT @Hachiman Taro @CariadocThorne

    This is INFORMATION, not opinion. In Spanish competition, SE is in a very bad spot. Does not matter if we do not agree about reasons.

    This thread was done in order to know If It is only Spain. Aftet 42 Pagés, It seems that is general.

    You belong to staff so you should be able to tell us if something can be done (and when) or better we move on and forget about playing competitive on same level than VC, VS, UD, EoS, WDG, DL, etc

    Sorry for been harsh but there was a lot of discussion last pages and result was 'no one convices the other' so let's move on. Without doing anything (may be nothing can be done).

    Thanks for your support
  • LetargicHunter wrote:




    @DanT @Hachiman Taro @CariadocThorne

    This is INFORMATION, not opinion. In Spanish competition, SE is in a very bad spot. Does not matter if we do not agree about reasons.
    What's your point? Because going from info to conclusions requires interpretation.
    SE are bad in Spanish meta?
    Spanish players don't like SE?
    SE are bad in teams?
    SE are a terrible terrible book that can't possibly win anything?
    SE are too RPS for players who want to win based on skill?
    Which of these are true? All of them? None of them?
    *Shrugs*




    This thread was done in order to know If It is only Spain. Aftet 42 Pagés, It seems that is general.
    In my experience, Spain is a weird, often very conservative and ranged based, meta. I believe it has the highest concentration of pyro, and has done for ~2yrs. I am pretty sure you will disagree with this, but it is not a conclusion I have arrived at lightly or by myself, so I am not too worried.


    You belong to staff so you should be able to tell us if something can be done (and when) or better we move on and forget about playing competitive on same level than VC, VS, UD, EoS, WDG, DL, etc
    I'm on sabbatical. So I'm part of no discussions or decisions for the project currently. You don't need to convince me of anything, nor will it gain you anything to convince me of anything.

    The project's plan has been stated multiple times in multiple places: nothing will be changed in slim books until after ETC.
    At which point there may be points changes, but design changes are very unlikely.

    My personal view:
    I have said I think SE are slightly behind the curve for singles. But I think that "slightly" is pretty small.
    I think SE are one of the weaker armies for teams, but I also personally don't think the project should be overly concerned with that compared to singles.

    Being supportive & giving useful criticism aren't mutually exclusive.
    Are you supportive of the project? Do your posts reflect that?

    List repository and links HERE
    Basic beginners tactics HERE
  • LetargicHunter wrote:

    Updating info with Spanish final info


    For example, in Spain official tournaments current year.

    CRT Águilas. 2 SE out of 80 players. 10 pyromage (not counted other heavy-missile magicians)

    TOE Talavera. 6 SE out of 112. 12 pyromage (not counted other heavy-missile magicians)

    TOE Valencia. 3 SE out of 80. 9 pyromage (not counted other heavy-missile magicians)

    TOE Fuengirola (Málaga). 4 SE players out of 96. 10 pyromages (not considering other heavy-missile casters)



    TOE Zaragoza. 6 SE out of 112.
    15 pyromages (not considering other heavy-missile casters)


    TOE Menorca 1 SE out 42.
    10 pyromages (not considering other heavy-missile casters).

    TOE Águilas 4 SE out of 96.

    In all of them, most (with one exception) made regular to very bad clasification. Player skill can affect this point

    Spanish National Final Championship (winners Will go to ETC in Novi Sad representing Spain). 4 SE out of 112. (Less represented army bar/except HBE).
    None of top teams has SE in their rosters.

    @DanT @Hachiman Taro @CariadocThorne

    This is INFORMATION, not opinion. In Spanish competition, SE is in a very bad spot. Does not matter if we do not agree about reasons.

    This thread was done in order to know If It is only Spain. Aftet 42 Pagés, It seems that is general.

    You belong to staff so you should be able to tell us if something can be done (and when) or better we move on and forget about playing competitive on same level than VC, VS, UD, EoS, WDG, DL, etc

    Sorry for been harsh but there was a lot of discussion last pages and result was 'no one convices the other' so let's move on. Without doing anything (may be nothing can be done).

    Thanks for your support
    which of these are team tournaments and which are singles?

    Can you provide or point to where the lists and the tournament results can be found?

    In short, theres a balance update (points only AFAIK) after ETC, and this kind of information will feed into it.

    Edit: From the information you have provided, what you are saying seems at least more pronounced in Spain compared to other metas where the major complaints seem more around competitive list composition rather than absolute power level.

    For example at TEC SE placed 5th and 6th (both 4w 1 L) which doesnt seem like an awfully unable to perform army.

    Data Analysis

    The post was edited 2 times, last by Hachiman Taro ().

  • Hachiman Taro wrote:

    LetargicHunter wrote:

    Updating info with Spanish final info


    For example, in Spain official tournaments current year.

    CRT Águilas. 2 SE out of 80 players. 10 pyromage (not counted other heavy-missile magicians)

    TOE Talavera. 6 SE out of 112. 12 pyromage (not counted other heavy-missile magicians)

    TOE Valencia. 3 SE out of 80. 9 pyromage (not counted other heavy-missile magicians)

    TOE Fuengirola (Málaga). 4 SE players out of 96. 10 pyromages (not considering other heavy-missile casters)



    TOE Zaragoza. 6 SE out of 112.
    15 pyromages (not considering other heavy-missile casters)


    TOE Menorca 1 SE out 42.
    10 pyromages (not considering other heavy-missile casters).

    TOE Águilas 4 SE out of 96.

    In all of them, most (with one exception) made regular to very bad clasification. Player skill can affect this point

    Spanish National Final Championship (winners Will go to ETC in Novi Sad representing Spain). 4 SE out of 112. (Less represented army bar/except HBE).
    None of top teams has SE in their rosters.

    @DanT @Hachiman Taro @CariadocThorne

    This is INFORMATION, not opinion. In Spanish competition, SE is in a very bad spot. Does not matter if we do not agree about reasons.

    This thread was done in order to know If It is only Spain. Aftet 42 Pagés, It seems that is general.

    You belong to staff so you should be able to tell us if something can be done (and when) or better we move on and forget about playing competitive on same level than VC, VS, UD, EoS, WDG, DL, etc

    Sorry for been harsh but there was a lot of discussion last pages and result was 'no one convices the other' so let's move on. Without doing anything (may be nothing can be done).

    Thanks for your support
    which of these are team tournaments and which are singles?
    All of them are Team tournaments and officials.

    Can you provide or point to where the lists and the tournament results can be found?
    Previously I sent you list from one of them. I just send lists from 3 more of them to your @hotmail mail. For results and rest you can ask in following spanish forum. etc-spain.com/foro


    In short, theres a balance update (points only AFAIK) after ETC, and this kind of information will feed into it.

    Edit: From the information you have provided, what you are saying seems at least more pronounced in Spain compared to other metas where the major complaints seem more around competitive list composition rather than absolute power level.

    For example at TEC SE placed 5th and 6th (both 4w 1 L) which doesnt seem like an awfully unable to perform army.
    TEC is a single tournament (no?), problem that i detect is about team tournaments.

    The post was edited 1 time, last by LetargicHunter ().

  • DanT wrote:

    LetargicHunter wrote:

    @DanT @Hachiman Taro @CariadocThorne

    This is INFORMATION, not opinion. In Spanish competition, SE is in a very bad spot. Does not matter if we do not agree about reasons.
    What's your point? Because going from info to conclusions requires interpretation.

    Info is little amount of SE in spanish official team tournaments and their medium to low positions.



    From now on, my opinions.

    SE are bad in Spanish meta? Yes, in spanish tournaments by TEAMS, they are bad option.

    Spanish players don't like SE? A lot of us likes/loves SE. But if you go to competitive Team tournaments, only some romantic (like me) use them.

    SE are bad in teams? Yes. You need to be really careful with SE pairings in Team tournaments but does not provide enough points for consider SE army as a "sword".

    SE are a terrible terrible book that can't possibly win anything? No. It's a marvellous book, and you can win against lot of armies. In single tournaments, with some lucky on pairings, you can achieve a good/very good position.

    SE are too RPS for players who want to win based on skill? It is too RPS for Team Tournament.

    Which of these are true? All of them? None of them? Some of them. Check up.

    *Shrugs*





    This thread was done in order to know If It is only Spain. Aftet 42 Pagés, It seems that is general.
    In my experience, Spain is a weird, often very conservative and ranged based, meta. I believe it has the highest concentration of pyro, and has done for ~2yrs. I am pretty sure you will disagree with this, but it is not a conclusion I have arrived at lightly or by myself, so I am not too worried.

    Spain is weird, i'm weird. It is not a problem for me to understand it. For these reason i create this thread to check what happen in other places...



    You belong to staff so you should be able to tell us if something can be done (and when) or better we move on and forget about playing competitive on same level than VC, VS, UD, EoS, WDG, DL, etc
    I'm on sabbatical. So I'm part of no discussions or decisions for the project currently. You don't need to convince me of anything, nor will it gain you anything to convince me of anything.

    Understood. Enjoy your vacations. :D


    The project's plan has been stated multiple times in multiple places: nothing will be changed in slim books until after ETC.
    At which point there may be points changes, but design changes are very unlikely.

    ok. This is an answer that i was looking for. Thanks for clarifying to me. No hope to design changes until some years in future.


    My personal view:
    I have said I think SE are slightly behind the curve for singles. But I think that "slightly" is pretty small.
    I think SE are one of the weaker armies for teams, but I also personally don't think the project should be overly concerned with that compared to singles.

    I have no problem in singles. You are RPS but pairing can be good or bad depending on "lucky". Problem is in team tournaments.


  • LetargicHunter wrote:

    Another important International Championship statistics
    (tourneykeeper.net/Team/TKIndividualLeaderboard.aspx?id=2599)

    WTC Open 2019

    13 SE out of 330 (3.9%)

    Best SE player 6° position with Dragón + Treeman Anc + Treeman + 51 dryads + 10 Treekin + Treekin BSB... Ahhh & 5 elves on Horse.
    That's cherry picking information. Don't forget that:

    3/10 top ten teams included Sylvan elves. Those three lists were not forest spirit based.

    Ahead of even Vermin Swarm (1 in the top 10)
  • JoeFin wrote:

    LetargicHunter wrote:

    Another important International Championship statistics
    (tourneykeeper.net/Team/TKIndividualLeaderboard.aspx?id=2599)

    WTC Open 2019

    13 SE out of 330 (3.9%)

    Best SE player 6° position with Dragón + Treeman Anc + Treeman + 51 dryads + 10 Treekin + Treekin BSB... Ahhh & 5 elves on Horse.
    That's cherry picking information. Don't forget that:
    3/10 top ten teams included Sylvan elves. Those three lists were not forest spirit based.

    Ahead of even Vermin Swarm (1 in the top 10)
    Also keep in mind that Singles event's data is weighted more in balance consideration than Team event's. Player influence on pairings can seriously skew list creation and performance.
  • JoeFin wrote:

    LetargicHunter wrote:

    Another important International Championship statistics
    (tourneykeeper.net/Team/TKIndividualLeaderboard.aspx?id=2599)

    WTC Open 2019

    13 SE out of 330 (3.9%)

    Best SE player 6° position with Dragón + Treeman Anc + Treeman + 51 dryads + 10 Treekin + Treekin BSB... Ahhh & 5 elves on Horse.
    That's cherry picking information. Don't forget that:
    3/10 top ten teams included Sylvan elves. Those three lists were not forest spirit based.

    Ahead of even Vermin Swarm (1 in the top 10)
    If you follow my post here, I'm showing (little) number of SE in official Team tournments. This is not cherrypicking.

    My point is in my (spanish) meta, SE is very little represented.
    Now i just start to include info about other' countries Team tournaments.

    If you have info from another official Team tournaments with more SE representation, perfect. Just include name, number of players and total players.
  • Having played versus England National Team and Russia National Team we only reached 25th place, but our Sylvan List was one of the easyest to pare in our Team.

    Advisary Board Member

    Workfields: Tournament Analysis, Army Community Support, Playtesting, Community Engagement, Translation/ United Nations DE Blog: Inside TA. The biggest german Tabletop Board: tabletopwelt.de
  • Looking back at the WTC I have to admit that match-ups weren't that terrible.
    There is usually enough variety in a five man team to find something workable. I had the impression that SE have rather a lot of extremely bad match-ups, but not too bad overall.

    In a singles tournament however, I would be concerned to be matched against a hard counter.

    Overall, there are other things that frustrate me about the current SE iteration:
    • No armor for Druids. If a highborn bookworm is able to put on a suit of armor, there is no reason why an independent survivalist cannot. It would open up a lot of fun ways to play Druids. Currently, there is only the archer bunker or the dragon mage.
    • No characters in Forest Rangers. The arguments against it are pretty hypocritical. If Wild Hunter lords can hide in Briar Maidens, all fluff based arguments are out the window.
    • Anti-synergy of characters in general. It feels like we have to pay for characters twice. Once via points, and a second time by taking away abilities of the unit they join. Very annoying. Sometimes, characters feel like a burden and not like a cool addition to the roster.
    • Maybe its just me, but I feel list building is very convoluted. On top of the regular list building restrictions we have an additional 'bow ressource' we have to keep track of and another Treefather conditional selection rule. And because that is not enough restriction, we also have hard caps on several of our units. (Heath Riders, Kestrels, elite Archers). It is a bad sign if even list building software cannot keep up with all the convoluted restrictions.
    • Avoiding hits is a very bad defense strategy in the current iteration. Way too many ways to mitigate or work around it.
    None of the above issues can be easily fixed and they don't necessarily keep me from playing SE, but in combination they definitely reduce my motivation to play SE.
  • Arrahed wrote:

    No armor for Druids. If a highborn bookworm is able to put on a suit of armor, there is no reason why an independent survivalist cannot. It would open up a lot of fun ways to play Druids. Currently, there is only the archer bunker or the dragon mage.
    Imho this difference (armor for them, weapons for us) have the potential to be good, we just need tools to actually make it shine, like a decent bow enchant, a defensive item for solo Mount (ward against shooting) and so on.
    Also right now we can play a master shaman in a forest guard block thanks to scarification, not the best choice but still a nice option.

    Arrahed wrote:

    Maybe its just me, but I feel list building is very convoluted. On top of the regular list building restrictions we have an additional 'bow ressource' we have to keep track of and another Treefather conditional selection rule. And because that is not enough restriction, we also have hard caps on several of our units. (Heath Riders, Kestrels, elite Archers). It is a bad sign if even list building software cannot keep up with all the convoluted restrictions.
    Imho the bow cap is nearly meaningless, i rarely find myself wanting to take more than 55 bows, but that's could be just my style, the only annoying cap that i find on units is the kestrel cap, but considerin how good they are maybe it's justified.

    Arrahed wrote:

    Anti-synergy of characters in general. It feels like we have to pay for characters twice. Once via points, and a second time by taking away abilities of the unit they join. Very annoying. Sometimes, characters feel like a burden and not like a cool addition to the roster.
    An example ? Right now i can only think about chars in ranger (wich i agree it's a shame that they work that way), and maybe druids, but mages are kinda supposed to be a burden i guess.

    Agree on the avoid hits though.
  • Chack wrote:

    An example ? Right now i can only think about chars in ranger (wich i agree it's a shame that they work that way), and maybe druids, but mages are kinda supposed to be a burden i guess.
    Ranger chars are of course the prime culprits.

    I suppose elks slowing down cavalry is an acceptable compromise. Princes can use horses after all. But it annoys me nevertheless.

    Mounted druids slow down everything they join.

    Eagle mounted chieftains and princes have mismatching bases. This would also be fine as it is still possible to create interesting character builds. But we already have Shapeshifters and dragons as solo heroes. I want something that works well with our units.

    Magic items that work only for very specific builds. No Curse of the black stag for dragon princes for example.

    Archer heroes with the artillery bow need to stay away from the opponent while the only units they can join are more effective at close range. (Not that you actually want to get into close range that often.)

    The most synergistic lore is Shamanism. With our current Mage options, this usually means we are selecting a lore with effectively no attribute spell. Not that the lore isn't worth taking this way, it is just very disappointing to miss out on the attribute.


    As I wrote in my previous post, none of these issues are particularly bad. It's just that there are so many small issues that you are pretty much guaranteed to run into several of them every time you build a list, constantly reminding you that they are there.
    It feels like I am getting teased with all these great options, but every time I want to take them, there is a catch.
  • Chack wrote:

    Arrahed wrote:

    No armor for Druids. If a highborn bookworm is able to put on a suit of armor, there is no reason why an independent survivalist cannot. It would open up a lot of fun ways to play Druids. Currently, there is only the archer bunker or the dragon mage.
    Imho this difference (armor for them, weapons for us) have the potential to be good, we just need tools to actually make it shine, like a decent bow enchant, a defensive item for solo Mount (ward against shooting) and so on.Also right now we can play a master shaman in a forest guard block thanks to scarification, not the best choice but still a nice option.
    and the MoCT? I would LOL but it’s just another lame HBE crutch entry my opponents can’t seem to do without.
    "The combination of lemon and habenero peppers was confusing to me. I will pay for this tomorrow i think." - Rosanjin Scholar, Iron Chef