Houses/Tribes of Dread Elves, book remake proposal.

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  • Houses/Tribes of Dread Elves, book remake proposal.

    Hi Everyone.

    I came to this idea long time ago, but never have enough time to share it on this forum.
    I think that we are under influence of the DE hereditary from old system and we can not go out from it.
    In the past we ware having cults.
    To make our army unique and different to the other Elves we create even more cults :).
    Now we have 4 of them.

    My proposition to go out from this OLD STYLE BOXED thinking.
    Forget about the past and Cults as a main role in Army book and create HOUSES of DREAD ELVES.
    My problem with cults is that CULT or Religion is not determining soldier fighting skills.
    Cult have much less impact on Dread Elves culture or politic compering to Houses.
    Moving to HOUSES with CULTS across all army types may be very simple and attractive way to create fluff and unique flavour to our army.
    With Houses of Dread Elves we will have so many places to develop our unique army in very simple and attractive way with using the same tools which have at this moment and without bigger changes in rules.

    Let me show you my idea:

    This idea is based on current 2.0 army book which we have.
    Stat lines of DE units will be the same as we have them now.


    Lets's start.
    Fluff in few words.
    There are 3 type of Elves Dread Elves, HE and SE.
    Dread Elves are the most aggressive, merciless and unforgiving one.
    Land covered by them is occupied by 4 strong houses which fight each other to take over the throne after fallen King. But be aware all of you which will like to take over DE land. DE may fight each other, but we are not allowing any outlanders to reach out our land. We will stand united and fight. Blab bla bla.


    We will have following Houses:
    House of NABH. Beast Masters from the West.
    House of Yema. Riders of the North.
    House of Olaron. Inheritors of the Crown,
    House of Cadaron. Riders of the Sea

    To the rules:
    Basic vanilla army is like it is now.
    Killer Instinct is the same.
    Some special House powers available for Characters

    Mono House Army requires:
    If the General belongs to a one House and the Army List does not include any models from any other House. All house upgrades are free of charge and have only to mono army units.
    Mono armies will have some units available only to them.
    Killer instinct is ON.


    Each House rules applied like today (Mono army is different story and will be described later).
    Nabth - the same like today.
    Yema - the same like today.
    Olaron - units are immune to Panic and all units in range of Olaron general are subject to Minimised Roll for Discipline tests.
    Cadaron - All Shooting attacks have +1 to hit in short range.
    YES, even Bolt throwers, Infantry crosbows will have quick to fire so they can move and shot without penalty.
    Mono army special rules, new units and small unit changes suggestion.

    HOUSE OF NABH
    Never ending hatred an all infantry units in range of General on foot.
    Give them Killy Characters on foot.
    Magic Maybe give them access to Shamanism but take away some lore.
    Focus on Hydras few types o Hydra King Hydra maybe Res.6 but with bigger base like 75/100.
    Beastmaster Lash will give better max rol on stomp fall all friendly monsters on the table.
    Minimised roll to enemy in 12".
    COK Units with Better Punch
    Maybe Cold Ones available without riders as a new unit?
    Chunting chariot with 24" range.
    Maybe Manticore without rider.
    NO MEDUSA, Black Guard, Corsairs, Dancers of Yema. Dark Riders.
    Harpies in Core in no Dark Riders??
    I will consider accessing to Bolt Throwers.

    HOUSE OF YEAMA
    HIT and RUN. Declare on the beginning of the Combat. If Yema unit will strike all his attack (mounts are not allowed to attack) before enemy unit. Then it can step back 1/2 Adv. range back. To do so enemy unit need to test 2d6 Agility +2 if charged on front +1 in on flanc.
    Ambush for Dancers of Yema ??
    Hydra Adv. 8. M.16 ASv 6+
    Kraken Adv. 8. M.16 ASv 6+
    Medusa in units of 6, maybe with extra spell.
    COK Adv. 8. M.16 ASv 3+ can take Crossbows like DR.
    COK Chariot Adv. 8. M.16 ASv 4+
    Chunting Chariot with Feigned Flight
    Darki Riders avaliable.
    NO UNITS: Decapitators, Blades of Nabth,

    HOUSE OF OLARON
    Some orders on General and Captain to boost Infantry units.
    Characters on foot can have easy access to ASv. 2+
    For Each character on foot one infantry unit can vanguard.
    Main Focus on infantry, some nice banners and cheaper.
    Can take all infantry units with basic rules.
    NEW UNIT. KinG Guard. Monstrous Infantry With Res4, Maybe Unbreakable?
    Black Gard will have Plate Armour and MR1 if General in the unit.
    Dark Riders Unit can be Scoring and ASv 2+ cavalry with Lance, but loose Light Troops and Feigned Flight and Adv. 8. M.16. Crossbows still available.
    HOUSE OF Cadaron -
    All unit treat Water as open terrain and soft Cover.
    Mage in Water +1 cast
    Can bring one lake on the table.
    Ambush on Corsairs.
    Corsairs can be upgraded with Heavy Saber +1S, unit became Special.
    Dark Rider Avaliable, can be upgraded with Heavy Saber +1S and Paired Weapons, unit became Special.
    More Krakens allowed.
    Better Kraken.
    All Kraken reroll to hit and to wound rols in 6" from water terrain or in water.
    New UNIT: SLAVES.
    New Unit Monster CRAB. Slow, low Off and Def, 8HP Res8. ASv. 2+, 2xCrush Attack, Grind Attack. Rerol to hit in Water.
    New Unit: Sirens. Shotting attack Something like Chilling Shriek from VC?

    NO UNITS:
    Hydra, Blades of Nabth, Dancers of Yema, Decapitarors, Tower Guard.


    Summary:
    I fully understand that everything above is my wishful thinking about Dread Elves Army.
    Quickly written and FOR SURE NEED TO BE CORRECTED, before adding it to the game.
    Neither less I think that it may be interesting and worth your time for reading it.

    Consider it, play with it, deny it, HAVE FUN.

    Create best Dread Elves army book ever made .

    @KiRaHyuU
    @GSbasic
    @noir
    @DarkSky

    The post was edited 2 times, last by cluzoe ().

  • Some interesting ideas in there, but I'd like to ask some questions first on things that make little sense in your proposal:
    1. There seems to be no rules difference between Houses and Cult. So you propose a change in fluff only? The changes you propose could be done with calling everything Cults as well.
    2. What is the point in writing Nabh as Nabth? Do you honestly think the Background team will change their lingo now?
    3. You propose no less than six additional units. Crab, Sirens, Slaves, riderless Raptors, riderless Manticore, King Hydra. What is your rationale for the book needing that many additional entries?
    4. What is your point in proposing Slaves? The teams already ruled this out categorical, both from fluff and gameplay perspective.
    5. Where is the Divine Altar in your Houses and Lists? This is a centre piece in the current discussion and you don't seem to have anything to write about it.
    6. I don't understand a lot of the changes. For example: Why would Cadaron Corsairs have more Strength? How does this play into DE ASAW? Why add a very slow very tough monster? Which kind of desired playstyles would this unlock?


    Now onto some of the rule changes:
    • I like that you reduced the amount of special themes from six to four, by merging Nabh and Beasts and Cadaron and Fleet Commander. I wouldn't have merged them this way (I'd say Beasts fit Cadaron better), but that might be a matter of taste.
    • I like the idea of a faction (in your case Nabh) to have access to another magic path. We already have this a little bit with Oracles of Yema, but this is an idea to be expanded, especially when Shamanism is actually a path, that can change a whole play style. However this won't fit the Arcane fluff we have seen so far at all.
    • Hit and Run seems like a really novel idea. Some variation (less powerful) could certainly make sense. The question for me is, how do you make it so it doesn't feel like a worse version of shooting. Imagine you are standing across an enemy, then make "Hit and Run", score a few wounds, then retreat. Enemy charges you next turn. What did play significantly different than a shooting attack?
    Generally I like this kind of posts where some grander changes can be discussed, but in this instance the changes are much too small. Seeing the other book reworks, I don't expect a lot of units to be "as before, but with +1 Armour" and I think this proposal is falling short, just because of that, so I would encourage you to be much more drastic and show us how your "House of Cadaron" would bring something completely new to the table aside from "this unit gets +1S".

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  • Hello DarkSky


    Let me explain my thinking behind this proposal.
    I work on the material which I have, it means DE 2.0 army book.
    I don't know your background plans and fluff that may be already prepared.
    My goal was to not make almost any change on a basic book if player will not like to use MONO Army.
    Because of it on a first look my proposal may look just as a fluff change.
    But it is not.
    In my opinion changing Cults to Houses open many possibilities in the game styles which will not look ridiculous from fluff perspective.

    I will give you example out from real life and ancient history.
    If you compare ancient armies of Rome, Egiptians and Greeks.
    They all believe in different gods but armies was different because of the place where they live and who is ruling them. They beliefs and gods ware having rather marginal input on Army.
    Coming back to DE.
    For me creating army different rules base on cults is unnatural for me.
    In my opinion more you go into it you will have more and more problems with explaining the differences between cults.
    Many time I heard from DE players sentence like "I really wonder how CULT can have an impact on Killer Instinct which is basic skill of not believing Army. Cult shouldn't do that."
    With cults it is like saying:
    We have Dominican, Protestant and Atheist. Only Atheist know how to make good red wine.
    Like most players I like the rules which are easy and simple to understand and explain to opponents.
    Using Houses or Tribes is simple to imagine it and identify with your army, with Cults it is not (at least for me).
    I believe that many times me and my opponents will need to do some "brain somersault" to imagine how it will work in real life.

    OK, this will be it for my introduction and background.
    Now let me answer you questions and add few things which pop out after writing this proposal.

    DarkSky: 1)There seems to be no rules difference between Houses and Cult. So you propose a change in fluff only? The changes you propose could be done with calling everything Cults as well.
    I think that I explain that in my introduction to this post.

    DarkSky :2)What is the point in writing Nabh as Nabth? Do you honestly think the Background team will change their lingo now?
    NO change. It is just a GRAMAR MISTAKE :)

    DarkSky: 3)You propose no less than six additional units. Crab, Sirens, Slaves, riderless Raptors, riderless Manticore, King Hydra. What is your rationale for the book needing that many additional entries?
    Just from sales perspective. If you do bargaining. Ask for more you will get more :)
    Seriously I think that riderless Raptors, riderless Manticore, Sirens are not so important.
    Slaves I will explain in point 4.
    Crab is to underline Sea and Corsairs army theme and without Hydras, Decapitators, Guards and Dancers. This Army will seriously have lack od punch. They are left only with CoK's.
    This Army will have serious problems with big units of infantry. Crab will be your STOP sign for big units. And it will be very nice to finally have on the field BIG monster.

    DarkSky: 4)What is your point in proposing Slaves? The teams already ruled this out categorical, both from fluff and gameplay perspective.
    OK no problem.
    It is my idea of the book, if I will create new army book. I will give them to community because they want it, since corsairs fluff appears in the old times when we play different game.

    DarkSky: 5)Where is the Divine Altar in your Houses and Lists? This is a centre piece in the current discussion and you don't seem to have anything to write about it.
    Good observation :).
    In my opinion it is a big mistake to focus on single units when you start building entire army. You want to do smal changes or rebuild.
    My goal and focus is to rebuild and army not a single unit.
    If you create army direction and you know what you want to achieve.
    You will know your main goal.
    If you have it you are ready to go to army flavours / play styles (Houses).
    After that you can start thinking about single units like Altar, because you know what you want to achieve.
    With this unit you easy suplement whatever you want with this BUFF WAGON.
    In my opinion I don't see a bigger point to talk about this unit at this moment.
    Altar without Cult priest in not Cult NEUTRAL. Why you want to change it?
    It will bring more problems if you will make him cult oriented.
    Probably you notice that I also didn't say a word about other units like, COK Chariot, Spears, Assassins, Cult Priest, Pegasus, Dragons, Raven Cloaks etc.
    There is no point to talk about them at this moment.
    At this moment I need your focus on main army rules, idea which I present.

    DarkSky: 6)I don't understand a lot of the changes. For example: Why would Cadaron Corsairs have more Strength?
    Lack of infantry punch in Corsair theme, and I don't want to create another unit.
    New weapon is enough.
    How does this play into DE ASAW? Why add a very slow very tough monster? Which kind of desired play styles would this unlock?
    Nabh - Monster truck
    Yema - Avoidance
    Olaron - Fighting infantry with bigger block.
    Cadaron - Shooting with counter punch.


    Now onto some of the rule changes:
    DarkSky: A) I like that you reduced the amount of special themes from six to four, by merging Nabh and Beasts and Cadaron and Fleet Commander. I wouldn't have merged them this way (I'd say Beasts fit Cadaron better), but that might be a matter of taste.
    SIX themes <X ??? While I will fit into 3 if you will not already create 4 CULTS X( .
    My mother always says: "If there is something to everything, it is good for nothing!!"
    I will agree on Cadaron with Beasts.

    DarkSky: I like the idea of a faction (in your case Nabh) to have access to another magic path. We already have this a little bit with Oracles of Yema, but this is an idea to be expanded, especially when Shamanism is actually a path, that can change a whole play style. However this won't fit the Arcane fluff we have seen so far at all.
    OK fair enough I will think about it 5 times even if I will create this army by myself.
    Just as an idea worth consideration

    DarkSky: Hit and Run seems like a really novel idea. Some variation (less powerful) could certainly make sense. The question for me is, how do you make it so it doesn't feel like a worse version of shooting. Imagine you are standing across an enemy, then make "Hit and Run", score a few wounds, then retreat. Enemy charges you next turn. What did play significantly different than a shooting attack?
    Dear DarkSky. HIT and RUN is significantly different than a shooting attack.
    Imagine very simple situation with HIT and RUN.
    Our oponent have big unit with 50+ bodies and mage in side of this unit.
    You charge with 5 Acolytes and declare Hit and Run.
    Behind your charging unit, in movement pchase, you set up your unit of dancers of yeama.
    With Hit and Run you kill mage and step back.
    Your opponent charge you. You flee through Dancers.
    They pass discipline with little help of BSB or general nearby and they HOLD.
    Dancers will easy take care about oponent Big Block which will not have {lexicon]magic[/lexicon] support :evil:
    And I think that we may have many more strategies base on hit and run.

    DarkSky: Generally I like this kind of posts where some grander changes can be discussed, but in this instance the changes are much too small. Seeing the other book reworks,
    I think that changes are quite BIG nad open many doors.
    - House oriented special abilities for characters.
    For Example addiotional attacks for Nabh
    - General Orders for Genereal and BSB.
    - House Orientes Special orders.
    - Posisbility to create cult / religion valid for all or some Houses.
    - New Units
    - New Army setups
    - etc.
    I hope that you are not expecting me to give you ready to use army ;)
    It will took a lot of time and mostprobably you will not read it ;)


    [i] DarkSky: I don't expect a lot of units to be "as before, but with +1 Armour" and I think this proposal is falling short, just because of that, so I would encourage you to be much more drastic and show us how your "House of Cadaron" would bring something completely new to the table aside from "this unit gets +1S".[/i]
    House of Cadaron is my biggest problem because its requires to create more new units to make it really interesting.
    As I was writing above. I create it because we have 4 CULTS and I need to create 4 Houses.
    Base on current "toys" I can't figure out much more.
    You put 3 best infantry units into the Cults, witch left me with our special slot infantry for Cadaron.
    This is why I create +1S sable for corsairs and push them to special, and to somehow get out of this situation.
    Now you know also why I need only 3 Houses 8-)
    If you like my concept I can work little bit more on Cadaron but I will need more detailed information about current project stage form you (on priv massage). I need to know were I can go with new units? With current toys my hends are little-bit tied.
    Quick ideas.
    - Cadaron can place additional water train on the table.
    - Water units like Giant Crab, Kraken or Sea Medusa (if you don't like Sirens :)) can walk faster in the water (something simple like walking marching takes 1" or 2" from current movement) or gain some special abilities from this train or both :).

    Create best Dread Elves army book ever made .
    Looking forward to your reply.

    Cluzoe



    PS: PLEASE DO NOT CREATE 6 CULTS :thumbdown:
    @KiRaHyuU
    @GSbasic
    @noir
    @DarkSky

    The post was edited 1 time, last by cluzoe ().

  • Hey cluzoe, the ACS team is fully aware of the cult problems and the community’s opinion. However keep the following in mind
    - we don’t have a say in background stuff. In fact what we can suggest is in a very narrow field

    - fluff is already created. It most likely won’t be recreated. What already is done stays.

    - we as ACS can probably chime in where the fluff transitions into rules. Meaning we can give feedback like „the community would prefer to not have the cults implemented as string as they’re now“ „community could live with A, B, C etc.“

    - your idea of houses is unlikely to happen. You can apply for the background team if you’d like though.

    So cults are in the fluff. The question only is how they’ll be transitioned into the rules. Unfortunately BGT has a say in this as well as ADT. Last time more cults were introduced it was not our choice. It was mandatory. ACS only could discuss with ADT about the rules. I wasn’t part of the team at that time and Kira was the only ACS in the task team back then, which made it - I’m sure - harder for him to get the community’s wishes through. What you can give feedback on is parts of the fluff that are not fully developed yet. Eg: cults stay but I’d like them to be not implemented/ only by simple special rules on top.

    This is obviously just an example but I hope you get the twist.
  • @cluzoe Wow, huge post. I will try to answer the most important points. If you think I left out an important point, than please point me to it, I don't leave something out by design.

    First: Reading your post I understood, I might not fully grasped the meaning of your post. So I will ask you directly: Is your post intended as input towards the ADT for ideas how they could do the rework or is it the base for a homebrew DE army with things you would like better?

    Onto the post itself:

    > "your background plans…"
    Just to be clear, I am not part of the teams making the new book, nor am I part of the background team. I just observe everything they produce and post and draw my conclusions. I have no insider knowledge whatsoever and all statements I make are derived from publicly available sources (i.e. mostly this forum and the Ninth Age Scrolls).

    > Houses vs. Cults
    I understand and agree with many of the things you explain there. Removing Killer Instinct especially is a hard sell justifying. I do however not agree on the historical comparison. We are after all a fantasy game. If the background team can create a compelling background where armies led by a Cult are possible, I have no problems with that. If you go into really nitty gritty rules vs fluff discussion, then on an abstract level your House rules could just as well be Cult rules.

    > Nabh vs Nabth
    Sorry, didn't mean to be a wiseguy, it just seemed to me as if you were doing this by design. On another level: I know many players use old names for DE unit entries out of habit. I would kindly ask you to consider newcomers who do not know the names you are using (Black Guard, Cold Ones). They have a hard time making the connection, so you would do them a great service, by using the names from the current army book.

    > New units, Crab
    I can understand wanting more, just wanted you to make a good argument for the additions. The Crab seems to make sense from a gameplay perspective for your Cadaron style.

    > New units, Slaves
    I just pointed this out in case you wanted to create ideas for the ADT. A lot of DE players want this, knowing, that it would be super strong, despite the teams clearly ruling it out time after time. If you want to be heard, it's a good habit to avoid raising any red flags. If I'd be ADT member, I would probably stop reading proposals containing Slaves completely.

    > Altar
    Fair point. I just mentioned this (and not the other units), because the Altar touches very heavily on the Cult topic, which is also a topic of your re-design. I would have expected you to either move the Altar into one of the houses (most likely Nabh) or declare it as a neutral piece, maybe only available to generalist armies and calling it "Altar of the Republic" or something more worldly.

    > Army Themes
    I think you misunderstood me. Currently we have six "build-around-me" themes in our army. Themes like this basically say "play more of XYZ". E.g. if you take Beast Master, you will want as many monsters as possible. Six themes are way too much, so I like that you reduced them to four (which is still quite a lot). If you are more keen on making your own army book, I would definitely advise you to make one generalist and no more than two specializations. (For completeness: There are also other themes, which do not need "build-around-me" lists, you can have more of those in your army book, without being too crowded, e.g. in the DL book you can focus on one divinity, but you aren't forced into taking even more to make the first few units worthy).

    > Big Picture
    By no means I wanted to demand anything from you. This is just my feedback (which I thought was requested by you). So my feedback stands: You have a very solid foundation of your Houses, I would still refrain from miniscule changes at this point and be more drastic in your unit reworks. E.g. if you think Cadaron is lacking big punch and needs a Crab, why not make one existing unit to fill that problem?

    > Recap
    So, if you are making your own book: Reduce the number of Houses (as you said) to a maximum of three, which will remove a lot of the problems of forcibly making Cadaron. If you are trying to create ideas and input for the ADT, better not challenge things that have been decided and work (mostly, some out-of-the-box thinking is always worth it) within the confines set by the teams through words and deeds in the last two years.

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  • Just some highlights...

    New units is a hard one, it’s like we have limited creative time or process you can say. So it’s sorta like do we work on new or the old and then the cookie kinda crumbles....

    What I do or could stress is so far the layout of the book has been two units per cult. (Blades and Judges for Nabh) (Dancers and Medusa for Yema) etc etc. Olaron only has one unit TGs so maybe there’s some design space there. The Altar will also be taken in a different direction as I think with the various editions of 12 inch bubble we’ve all come to find problems and that’s something that’ll have to be revisited.

    Regarding Houses, look I still want to revisit “Dark Titles” or “Dread Honours”. So who knows about that rabbit hole.

    Finally as Noir stated earlier fluff is sadly out of our ball park and not subject to change. I mean Noir and I know that the only reason why DRs became Cadaron is because it was a fluff reason :(

    I know this sounds like a lot of cold water and honestly I’m not hear to dampen your creative touch, but this stuff is still gold and if we can find away to fit it in. Like what I think the ACS team want is to able to point to changes in the relaunch and say look we listened to you guys and this is what we got.