DL Fab Feedback from other comunities: ID point of view

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    • DL Fab Feedback from other comunities: ID point of view

      Hi everyone,


      We have been asked to gather opinions from the community on the new DL book.


      So how have you all found your games against the new DL going?


      Is it fun to play against? Are there any overly weak or strong units/combos or whatever?


      Looking for both general impressions and from a ID specific view point.

      Playtester

      DL-Comunity Support

      Master of the Coins

    • Limited experience on my part but from what I have experienced:

      The Tauruk Annointed are really good against DL. Same with Subjugator. Beefy stats, good armour, good movement. Hard for the DL to deal with. There isn't much in the DL army that wants to get into combat with this type of unit, even the Clawed Fiends are like nope.

      Big blocks of goblins with bows are good too. They whittle down the enemy and even when DL get flank charges they typically won't be 2 ranks to break steadfast anymore. Spears are good for more attacks to overwhelm the Aegis saves.

      The post was edited 2 times, last by Peacemaker ().

    • I have only played against daemons once with my Infernal Dwarfs, so my impressions are a bit limited.

      I played the Blunder-bus, with icon Bsb and Pyro master, two units of hobbows, along with two units of Incarnates, the pain train shooter, two volcannons and two Flamethrowers, sprinkled with three hobwolves chieftains.

      The Daemons brought the Sentinel on throne, in one of two minimum imp units. Also two heralds on foot, one in the other imp unit, and one in the big lemure unit.
      He also had one flying chariot, and one monster killer chariot. Also Fiends with broodmother, Daemonic Engine Hope Harvester, a medium unit of sirens, mageblight gremlins, two units of furies, and...I think that is all.

      Pyromancy kill daemons like there is no tomorrow. The extra tokens helped me a lot more than the daemons - partly because I outdeployed him and kept most magic from me the first couple of turns.

      Incarnates might be the best answer to Lemures - they died in droves, especially with either Flaming swords or Haze up. The Lemures got some buffs aswell, but it wasn’t enough.

      The magic - with the sentinel, harbingers, and imps, was good. But couldn’t use its magic really until turn three. After that it was a lot of snipes, buffs, and the hereditary spam that I needed to choose between.

      Fiends got chaffed until I had burnt and shot them dead.
      The big hope harvester didn’t really shoot good enough to justify its high cost.

      Overall - the list wasn’t very good, and as I could focus on one threat at a time, I easily picked it apart. I see potential in fiends, sentinel, Lemures, furies, but the rest really seemed lacklustre.

      Oh! The gremlins. Fantastic unit. Extremely useful, in a lot of ways. It can really make a mess of all sorts of plans, that one.

      I think a lot of the stuff needs to be cheaper. I like the way almost all units are specialised, but they are too vulnerable and in a lot of cases quite useless against everything not their prime target. More numbers could help some there.
      Also, I think all units should have at least 5++ always, and some better than that, conditionally.
    • Gonna try go up against a mate of mine - He just picked DL as his new faction.

      We had some test with lord builds, and i can safely say, that we cant field a character, able to compete with any of theirs bigger lords..

      We tried Kadim titan vs all the big stuff (It won 2 out of 5)

      Pain train with hammers (Won 3 out of 5)

      Overlord on bull (Won 3 out of 5)

      Overlord on Great bull (Won 3 out of 5)

      Overlord on foot (Won 3 out of 5)

      I cant remember all the names of the big demons, but Omen + Meiser really kicked our butts..

      Reason the Train did better then kadim, was due to grind attacks auto hit, so their + 8 deffence is useless.. Also it tanked better then kadim
    • Irondaemon wrote:

      Crazydwarf wrote:

      We had some test with lord builds, and i can safely say, that we cant field a character, able to compete with any of theirs bigger lords..
      That...seems like ID did quite good, no? Better than the Daemons? Or did I misunderstand you?
      oh sorry.. i'm in a rush, so i typed to fast..

      We did a few battles with Kadim, Engine with hammers, and overlord varaiant vs these 5..

      He could fit motifications as needed on them ofc, but the +1 resilience is just beastly good...

      The demons mentioned were:

      Miser of Sugulag - Only engine could beat this guy, but it was 50/50 with the overlord on bull..

      Courtesan of Cibaresh - Only the engine could hurt this one, due to auto hitting.. No other could touch it.. Thats distracting + high defence really is a pain. And he kept saving the wound i finally got in..

      Omen of Savar - depended on the Attack + Offense, but he killed a titan and overlord, lost to the train.. Very random due to dice rolls

      Vanadra’s Scourge - Non of our units could beat this guy, insanly strong

      Maw of Akaan - Lost to all of ours

      We did this with no spells or veil tokens.. Which could buff his units even more
    • Crazydwarf wrote:

      Irondaemon wrote:

      Crazydwarf wrote:

      We had some test with lord builds, and i can safely say, that we cant field a character, able to compete with any of theirs bigger lords..
      That...seems like ID did quite good, no? Better than the Daemons? Or did I misunderstand you?
      oh sorry.. i'm in a rush, so i typed to fast..
      We did a few battles with Kadim, Engine with hammers, and overlord varaiant vs these 5..

      He could fit motifications as needed on them ofc, but the +1 resilience is just beastly good...

      The demons mentioned were:

      Miser of Sugulag - Only engine could beat this guy, but it was 50/50 with the overlord on bull..

      Courtesan of Cibaresh - Only the engine could hurt this one, due to auto hitting.. No other could touch it.. Thats distracting + high defence really is a pain. And he kept saving the wound i finally got in..

      Omen of Savar - depended on the Attack + Offense, but he killed a titan and overlord, lost to the train.. Very random due to dice rolls

      Vanadra’s Scourge - Non of our units could beat this guy, insanly strong

      Maw of Akaan - Lost to all of ours

      We did this with no spells or veil tokens.. Which could buff his units even more
      The +1 res manifestation is only for non-gigantic models - that is Omen, Deceiver, throne sentinel - so can’t made all the difference?

      “Only Engine could beat this guy”...oh, and the overlord. Seems alright? It is the tankiest guy out there - and the overlord overcome him half of the time.

      The rest...well, they are greater daemons. But we are Infernal Dwarfs. We have fire. A lot of fire. They won’t come near us unharmed. Well, the Scourge might, if fire is all that we have. Luckily we don’t.

      As a ID player primarily for the last five six years, I am not worried the slightest when seeing Daemons across the board. And as a Daemon player as well, I’m happy that if I manage to get close to the enemy without getting hurt to bad with my greater daemons, I have a fair chance to win some combats at least.
    • Damn, then we might have done it wrong.. He made them, and just listed the stats for me, so i should have payed more attention to it.. This might nullifie some of the combats..

      I should mention my overlord build: Great weapon, blessed inscription, Lugar's Dice, Gauntlets of Madzhab, Distiny's Call.

      He's running a S7/AP4 with reroll to hits, reroll to wound, divine, magical, 7/7 D/OS, battlefocus turn 2.. :)
    • Only 2 games in against DL after the update.

      Them being mostly R3/R4 with Aegis 5+ does play into one of our strength: high volume of S4 shooting/magic, so there's that.
      Unfortunately they don't need many surviving models, they can easily field 5 combat unis (for example 2x succubi, 2 Brazen Beasts and 1 big unit of flies).
      That doesn't sound like that much.. you can magic down 6 flies in 2 turns and maybe even have some left over for the others. Unfortunately though even the Succubi can be a problem as you can't stop their magic and they easyily enough have multiple times access to reroll to wound and/or lower toughness. Not even counting some strange rerolls to 1 from guiding manifestions a bit more than a dozen Succubi can still take down 20 Immortals in a turn.

      Anyway question was about fun:
      It's an interesting matchup as both sides have several counters to each other. Though what I don't find fun are those flies.. AP3 attacks and the 2 toxic hit per wound are awful. You have to shoot/cast them down otherwise they'll get through everything you have, specially if enhanced by rerolling 1's and/or magic.
      But more unfun than the 2 toxic hits for me is the fact that those explosion-toxic-hits are against the MODEL not the unit.. if you have to hope your character doesn't hit or doesn't wound just so he won't die from the explosion.. that just feels bad. Not arguing whether it's to strong or not (although I think it's a bit over the top) but it just feels bad.

      On the fun part: I do like that they're magic heavy and can sling spells left and right with easy acess to kinda cheap mages with additional buffs, having channel 5 thanks to their extra veil tokens. Not sure if the extra +1 to cast is necessary, specially with Thaumaturgy's rerolling 1's. But it certainly adds the feeling of raw magic coming to rip you apart.
    • I am going to have to bring this up, as I see this as a very prominent issue with DL.

      1:
      Their magic phase is unstoppable.


      I mean this quite literally. The way I have experienced DL magic phases, it's a 2-dice spam fest that allows them one average to get about 3/4 spells off per turn (depending on the flux card). That is just bonkers ESPECIALLY with prominent access to Divination. Let me provide some examples.

      DL player gets the 5/5 phase. They have 2 masters. So they channel 9 and add 3 dice to go to 8. They then proceed to 2-dice 4 spells in a row at +2 to cast, on average rolls this gives them a roll of natural 7 which gets pushed up to a 9.

      Now the opponent has 5 dice, the average on 3 dice is 10, so to beat one 2-dice spell they HAVE to use three. 2 dice is a huge gamble to stop a 9+ casting roll spell, so the only options in this situation are: 5 dice to stop the absolute worst one spell, or 3 dice to hopefully stop the absolute worst one and pray to get lucky with your 2 dice verses a potential low roll from the DL player.

      With things going badly for the DL player in this situation, they get 2 spells off a turn. 2 spells a turn is normally a good phase for any other army.

      I am going to point the finger at the +1 to cast for 2-dice here. It is very easy to load up on a huge amount of spells that can easily be cast in this situation, especially combat influencing spells.

      This latter point also feeds in to DL feeling unstoppable in combat. Even though their units are not the absolute best, they feel that way when they can easily fire off 3 buff/debuffs and pretty much auto-win the round of combat.


      2:
      The Omen of Savar+Divination


      This leads to an un-fun damned if you do, damned if you don't situation. Players can't have their characters running around outside of a unit, because divination. But if they are "protected" in a unit the Omen will just simply kill them. I have seen tooled up to hell characters just laughably disposed of (Vampire Lords). And even faster ones struggle to even scratch it, because of its 4++ against magical attacks.

      Having the Omen be this thing that can only be avoided is un-fun, it has no counterplay other than running away while keeping your characters protected in a bunker (and even that is questionable due DL army-wide swiftstride).

      You can't even beat it with combat resolution, because even against a unit champion, it earns 4 combat res because of its multiple wounds 2. Instantly countering 3 ranks and a banner.
      And that's not even mentioning the unit-wide Hatred effect it can have, to make winning be enough of a reliable amount extremely difficult.

      I don't care if this thing has been nerfed 2 times, 3 times or 4 times, it is still way too much to be able to get a model that can insta-kill any duel it enters, be a Master Mage (of divination of all things) AND provide a Hatred effect for its unit.

      Lord of the Hobby

      The Great Horde of Chaos <-My hobby blog Tyranno's Ride into the Steppes <-My Makhar hobby/army-list blog
    • Since their last update I've only played 2 or 3 games versus daemons, thus I can't comment on your second point regarding the Omen has I haven't faced it since its nerf.

      But I would like to add some thoughts regarding your first point.
      While I do agree it's strong, it's hardly free.

      First of all looking at the whole context of the army: they have hardly any range (yeah more than WdG but not by much), therefore magic needs to cover that angle, too (as leaving them melee-only would put them in the same corner WdG is.. just without any armour).

      Having 2 master wizards is hardly free. Yes (nearly) everyone of their characters can become one, therefore you end up with quite expensive models with stats halfly made (and paid) for melee which does expose them.
      Not even the Omen can be just chucked into any melee, let him fight anything he can't hide from in a challenge and he's getting in trouble.

      The extra veil tokens also benefitting the opponent is a real drawback. Specially considering that they do not any armour and expensive models and thus have a hard time against several spells.


      And lastsly would be my comment from above (which is obviously just my personal opinion).

      Shako wrote:

      On the fun part: I do like that they're magic heavy and can sling spells left and right with easy acess to kinda cheap mages with additional buffs, having channel 5 thanks to their extra veil tokens. Not sure if the extra +1 to cast is necessary, specially with Thaumaturgy's rerolling 1's. But it certainly adds the feeling of raw magic coming to rip you apart.
    • Shako wrote:

      Since their last update I've only played 2 or 3 games versus daemons, thus I can't comment on your second point regarding the Omen has I haven't faced it since its nerf.

      But I would like to add some thoughts regarding your first point.
      While I do agree it's strong, it's hardly free. Very little in this game is truly free, so I am not sure your point here. I faced 2 master mages, one with substantial combat power and the other horrific combat power. Totaled around 1400 points. Yes it IS a lot, but getting 2 master mages that don't need any kind of substantial protection and can be chucked onto the front-lines AND one is so strong I can't touch it, that's a ton of benefits.

      First of all looking at the whole context of the army: they have hardly any range (yeah more than WdG but not by much), therefore magic needs to cover that angle, too (as leaving them melee-only would put them in the same corner WdG is.. just without any armour). I faced WoDG magic phases, this is far and away more powerful and far less "fun".

      Having 2 master wizards is hardly free. Yes (nearly) everyone of their characters can become one, therefore you end up with quite expensive models with stats halfly made (and paid) for melee which does expose them.
      Not even the Omen can be just chucked into any melee, let him fight anything he can't hide from in a challenge and he's getting in trouble. From what exactly? He is S6 Agil7 with tons of high OS attacks, so can butcher quite a lot of stuff. And on the defense is Res5 HP4 (with a 6++ to jank some damage). Plus if you have anything with magical attack, it gets gimped.

      Plus his surrounding unit gets steroid-ed as well through the hatred and copious combat buffs. So good luck actually devoting attacks on him, and not trying to kill his surrounding unit to make sure you don't lose combat.


      The extra veil tokens also benefitting the opponent is a real drawback. Specially considering that they do not any armour and expensive models and thus have a hard time against several spells. Here is the thing though, DL lists can be built to capitalise on it, while the opponent probably is not and can end up with too much power for too few spells.

      I used a Pyro Master against DL and it wasn't getting off significantly more spells than usual. Perhaps 1 more every few turns. And they may not have armour, but they have aegis, which is better.


      And lastsly would be my comment from above (which is obviously just my personal opinion).

      Shako wrote:

      On the fun part: I do like that they're magic heavy and can sling spells left and right with easy acess to kinda cheap mages with additional buffs, having channel 5 thanks to their extra veil tokens. Not sure if the extra +1 to cast is necessary, specially with Thaumaturgy's rerolling 1's. But it certainly adds the feeling of raw magic coming to rip you apart.
      I find it too much. 4 spells a turn from one of the middling-to-low flux cards is insane.

      Lord of the Hobby

      The Great Horde of Chaos <-My hobby blog Tyranno's Ride into the Steppes <-My Makhar hobby/army-list blog
    • @Tyranno

      The Oman is all about sending in the right unit to kill him. You can't send your characters to go fight him unless you have one with immunity to lethal strike/multiwound like vampires do. ...and even other vamp builds can just regrow champions.
      But anyway, he has no save against non magical so you just send in high strength troops or a buff to reroll wounds - rank and file should kill him in a couple rounds.

      if opponent is using their whole army to chaff/maneuver to get his Oman where he wants then its simply a matter of being outplayed.
      -----------------

      The two dice spells is pretty strong. But they have very little other ranged units so the Hereditary spell should be viewed more like taking a bolt thrower. So when analyzing 4 spells a turn I feel any hereditary should not be counted.

      ....if divination path is a problem then I'd argue thats an issue with Divination needing a nerf. Which I'm sure many people agree with.

      And the part about buffing - ya thats a tricky one. Without easy access to buffs, alot of the DL units aren't worth their points. But they can't go any cheaper because then its just spamming bodies with aegis saves.