EoS Artillery, Neither Cheap Nor Reliable... Thoughts?

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  • Casp wrote:

    I dont understand you analyze guys. for me EoS artillery is pretty good.

    You cant speak about our artillery without take in consideration the spell:
    +1 to wound in aura or for one target. (if you play mortar)
    +1 to hit (for any artillery)
    Reroll to hit and gain divine attack. (if you play volley gun)

    Our hereditary allow us to get 2 of those spell, by only pay for an adept !

    And of course we have to pay for one or two Artificer.

    Looks like you guys pay for artillery but want them to be cheap. You take it the wrong way. When you play artillery, you have to build your list around it. Pay them the wizard that will help them, the ranger or militia unit that will do redirection in protection. The light troops that will help the artillery and protect the Artificer. And be sure the Artificer could always help an artillery, so if you choose a volley gun take also a canon or a rocket to be sur to get a target each turn.

    When i build a list, all possibility seem open to me about artillery, even mortar that arent the best synergie with our army, are attractive, with the +1 to wound possibility.
    I think most of use are already using /taking into account magic and buffs. And many DO use Artificiers..and still...
    Veteran of the Chaff Wars
  • Yes, but what Casp is describing above, that is the problem. In order to be reliable EoS big guns require an Artificer and magical support. The issue is that Artillery is supposed to be a strength of the EoS. It isn't. To make it effective you have to invest more points and resources in to magic and Engineering, thus making it more expensive. You end up devoting a significant portion of your built list in to buffing, protecting and supporting, artillery pieces, just to get some work out of them.

    My original point in the thread was that Artillery, war machines, in any faction or army has to be either inexpensive, or reliable, to see use on the table.

    Goblins, Vermin Swarm and Ogres all have some cheap(ish) artillery options that are not the most reliable but have either other features (fighting Rhinos, special protection rules) or are super cheap. The Dwarves have expensive, but super reliable warmachines. Infernal Dwarves, bless them, have both goblin bolt throwers and reliable Dwarf death weapons. Elves get bolt throwers that are fairly priced and extra reliable and The UD charnel catapult is at 200pts pretty solid, with two rolls to hit on 5+ for each shot, and special magic and panic rules. To be fair, the KoE has similar problems to EoS in terms of cost and reliability, a serf bolt throw is an 0-2 choice and 33% more expensive than it's goblin counterpart, and objectively no better, although the synergies in the list are different and Artillery isn't supposed to be a strength.

    In contrast the EoS artillery is priced like Dwarf options without the reliability. If you are happy with the EoS big guns with the way they currently work, then that is great. To get the most out of them (ie more than 1 to 2 shots a game) they have to be protected by other units and your play-style has to create synergies. Which is great if it is working for you. What I, and it seems a good percentage of the other participants on this thread, are saying is that we aren't happy with how it is working. So much so, that for many of us, Artillery sits on the shelf at home rather than seeing the field. For something that is supposed to be one of our factions greatest strengths, this is unfortunate.

    Look at the Infernal Dwarf Rocket Launcher, FFS. It is a volley gun that has a 48" range 2d6 shots, Strength 7 AP2, and has a Dwarf crew with Discipline 9, and heavy armour, all for 85pts more than our volley gun. Now it is true, they don't have access to the same engineer and magic buffs the EoS does. Instead for 130pts they can make it a Demon that can defend itself in hand to hand combat and has an Aegis save. 48" range. We have been begging for 30" range like the Dwarven Volley gun so we can shoot turn 1, for ages. 48" means they can park their shooter in the back, and it can fight off any war machine hunters that may come after it.

    If we can't have Dwarf (regular or infernal) levels of reliability and versatility, it is too much to ask for less expensive?
  • Well yeah, i admit i like that EoS army isent an easy to play army.
    Any choice you do, has to been take in consideration into a global strategy.
    Each unit, should be in synergie with at least one other, and ideally it should be multiple synergie. To create not a line of synergie, but a network.

    There is already lot of other army that work differently. You just pick up your entry, and be happy with it.
    I dont see any good reason to do the same for EoS. Lets stay different.

    And it is just a question of complexity of list building, not a question of underpower or overpricning, as our artillery is already really efficient in terme of cost/wound inflicted if you play well with it.
    A volley gun could win a game almost by itself.
    A canon coudl kill easily 2 monster in one game etc..

    So you cant reduce price or increase power, without removing the synergie option. Otherwise artillery would become OP.
    cas-p.net / graphic & web designer.
    SE - VS - O&G - EoS / 9th age player.

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Casp ().

  • IMO we should make them immune to magic buffs and better/cheaper.

    I have never played against ID, but imagine that the combination of magic and dwarven artillery is just crazy.

    Ours should be mundane technological wonders.
    and I still believe; Light infantry should fight and shoot in 3 ranks, FREE command groups for EoS units. Imperial Guards should have weaponmaster and both parent and support, and that halbardiers should wear heavy armor. Brace for impact should be changed to, or there should be an extra order: " Have at THEM!" The unit gain battle focus.
    For Sunna and the Emperor!!
  • Casp wrote:

    And it is just a question of complexity of list building, not a question of underpower or overpricning, as our artillery is already really efficient in terme of cost/wound inflicted if you play well with it.
    A volley gun could win a game almost by itself.
    A canon coudl kill easily 2 monster in one game etc..

    So you cant reduce price or increase power, without removing the synergie option. Otherwise artillery would become OP.
    As was said by @Gaius Marius if EoS artillery works for you...fine. Some (if not many to most) of us here think (according to our experiences) different.
    A volley gun MIGHT help to win a game ...as do other things . So, that is a trivial statement.
    A canon MIGHT kill two monsters in one game (I wouldn`t call it easily though...I deem that very lucky and rather unusual...if Fortuna is with you :) )...but canon MIGHT do nothing at all (or just blow up with the first shot, doing nothing the rest of the game). :/

    E.g. buffing artillery helps, but than again, I could as well need the magical buffs on my light infantry or instead use my magic dices for other spells (direct damage, buff spells for cc-units).

    The point is that many EoS gamers feel that artillery by and large is too expensive /not efficent enough for us ...taking into account that art. should be one of our main strengthes.
    Veteran of the Chaff Wars

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Phosphorus ().

  • I rarely use my EoS (not out of any hate for the army, but as @Gaius Marius has said, your choice of army really says something about you... hence the WDG, DL and Goblins... take from that what you will) but I have observed a simple thing here:

    There is nothing that the artillery could do that I can't put something on the field that could fill the role/guard against the threat and do so with at least similar reliability and, often times, more versatility.

    Now, that's a truth with war machines in general, I believe. But, that said, I take a look at the following common-use "WMs" I use:

    Skewerers: absurdly cheap and can put a hurt on buff wagons, monsters and ranked cav/mons cav. Not reliable, but spammable and affordable.

    Hope Harvester: Great little volley gun with some mobility and a monster attached that runs with a unit of Lemures. Ah... ignore this. It's stupid/good.

    Dwarf Catapult: The S4Ap2 blast with engineering runes is worth the cost... not to mention the engineer who is useful in his own right (engineer 3+, give this fella' hard cover and the wyrmslayer is beyond fun). Expensive? Yeah... but really, really reliable. Also thins out glass cannon units very well; I can't afford to lose dorfs. They're so few in numbers.

    On the rare occasion I bring my pajama-clad posse to the table, I do bring a mortar... which rarely does a bloody thing.


    So again, this goes to a standard list building philosophy I have:
    • What is my center?
    • Do I have a flank-pusher?
    • Chaff?
    • What characters will help the above?
    • Will an adept or two do... or do I really need access to the +1 to cast and the 5/6 spells?
    • What can the above not deal with or have a really tough time dealing with (this is where the odd war machine gets inserted).


    Now, again this is simply one humble goblin's opinion, but I'm having a hard time answering that for my EoS list re: war machines anymore.
    Goblin, Daemon Legions and Warriors of the Dark Gods Player and 9th Age Staffer
    Follow my journey through the world of 9th Age HERE
  • Phosphorus wrote:

    As was said by @Gaius Marius if EoS artillery works for you...fine. Some (if not many to most) of us here think (according to our experiences) different.
    A volley gun MIGHT help to win a game ...as do other things . So, that is a trivial statement.
    A canon MIGHT kill two monsters in one game (I wouldn`t call it easily though...I deem that very lucky and rather unusual...if Fortuna is with you )...but canon MIGHT do nothing at all (or just blow up with the first shot, doing nothing the rest of the game).

    E.g. buffing artillery helps, but than again, I could as well need the magical buffs on my light infantry or instead use my magic dices for other spells (direct damage, buff spells for cc-units).

    The point is that many EoS gamers feel that artillery by and large is too expensive /not efficent enough for us ...taking into account that art. should be one of our main strengthes.
    Well i put a warning because if we improve our artillery or decrease to much the cost
    I am afraid the next consequence, will be RT nerfing our gunline...

    i love gunline, so i dont want to see any nerf on them, so i dont want them to be improve as they are already in a pretty good spot.
    An EoS gunline is already a real pain for our opponent. In 75% of the case they have to refuse the match, wait hide, and try to steal the scenario. Imagine if you improve it !

    You want to improve the artillery for the generic EoS list, but be careful doing this will also impact the more extrem list.
    cas-p.net / graphic & web designer.
    SE - VS - O&G - EoS / 9th age player.

    The post was edited 2 times, last by Casp ().

  • Casp wrote:

    Phosphorus wrote:

    As was said by @Gaius Marius if EoS artillery works for you...fine. Some (if not many to most) of us here think (according to our experiences) different.
    A volley gun MIGHT help to win a game ...as do other things . So, that is a trivial statement.
    A canon MIGHT kill two monsters in one game (I wouldn`t call it easily though...I deem that very lucky and rather unusual...if Fortuna is with you )...but canon MIGHT do nothing at all (or just blow up with the first shot, doing nothing the rest of the game).

    E.g. buffing artillery helps, but than again, I could as well need the magical buffs on my light infantry or instead use my magic dices for other spells (direct damage, buff spells for cc-units).

    The point is that many EoS gamers feel that artillery by and large is too expensive /not efficent enough for us ...taking into account that art. should be one of our main strengthes.
    Well i put a warning because if we improve our artillery or decrease to much the costI am afraid the next consequence, will be RT nerfing our gunline...

    i love gunline, so i dont want to see any nerf on them, so i dont want them to be improve as they are already in a pretty good spot.
    An EoS gunline is already a real pain for our opponent. In 75% of the case they have to refuse the match, wait hide, and try to steal the scenario. Imagine if you improve it !

    You want to improve the artillery for the generic EoS list, but be careful doing this will also impact the more extrem list.
    Well, we should be aware that there won`t be any changes until our FAB. (so, the discussion is rather academical). And no, personally I don´t want to strengthen the gun line approach(es) as I deem that as rather boring for me (and indeed frustrating for our opponents). That is not the (main) issue here (I guess). I am more for an balanced approach but currently I feel you have to go full gun line...or leave art. better on the shelves. Granted , that is a fickle thing to do, to find the right balance (as ever). But exactly that is the issue and ideas for that are called for.
    I think what some here have a issue with is that other armies can do that much better or at least to some degree better. E.g. once our artillery, canons esp., could surpress the warmachines of our enemies and/or could deliver conter shooting/fire .
    Often I feel that THEY could force us to come forward to them (and in my imagination, EoS should be the army which should , if wished by and armies build around that, force the enemy to our cc-(infantry) units). At present, I feel that magic is doing a better job for us especially vs. certain armies (e.g. Sylvans).
    Veteran of the Chaff Wars

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Phosphorus ().

  • you have a point there @Casp.
    What do you think of my no magic buffs on war machines idea?
    and I still believe; Light infantry should fight and shoot in 3 ranks, FREE command groups for EoS units. Imperial Guards should have weaponmaster and both parent and support, and that halbardiers should wear heavy armor. Brace for impact should be changed to, or there should be an extra order: " Have at THEM!" The unit gain battle focus.
    For Sunna and the Emperor!!
  • Well could be a solution... But personnaly i would cry, i love buffing them ^^;
    And has i said, i like the fact that nothing is good by itself in our army except maybe flaggey and KoGS.
    Everything need synergie and its fine for me. For me the more synergie there is, the more happy i am :)

    I like complexity ^^... (but conclusion i am often too slow during turnament .., i have to really stress myself to keep the timing ;) )
    cas-p.net / graphic & web designer.
    SE - VS - O&G - EoS / 9th age player.
  • I appreciated this read. More and more lists I make include no artillery. It’s weird, sad, frustrating, and not for the glory of Sunna.
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  • Tolerated the last misfire of a cannon last saturday... i really want to give them a chance, but 1st turn i killed 1 KoE knight with it, 2nd turn misfire and 250 points to the trash. I'm going to squeeze in a few more points and get me 3 KoSG that can do the job more reliable and don't need babysitting like that warmachine.

    I believe the rocket battery is where the sweet spot is at, good pricing, decent performance against a fair number of enemies. Volleygun got nerfed to hell with it's cost, need of a en engineer, prone to get -1 to hit, and T4 with 5 wounds with a small range that puts it into small arms fire range most of the time. Mortar suffers a lot from the new LoS rules (WHY do the dwarf warmachines get tall and ours doesn't? any real good reason? it's an indirect fire weapon... it's supposed to not have direct line to what it intends to hit :/ )
    If you find violence isn't the answer, you're simply not being violent enough.
  • I think vgun gets to much hate.
    It really zones well, if placed carefully. And with reroll to hit from divination its just brutal.
    and I still believe; Light infantry should fight and shoot in 3 ranks, FREE command groups for EoS units. Imperial Guards should have weaponmaster and both parent and support, and that halbardiers should wear heavy armor. Brace for impact should be changed to, or there should be an extra order: " Have at THEM!" The unit gain battle focus.
    For Sunna and the Emperor!!
  • Smythen wrote:

    I think vgun gets to much hate.
    It really zones well, if placed carefully. And with reroll to hit from divination its just brutal.
    I've had those yellow bones of UD basically kill it for free if they go first. They don't give a crap about cover, and can saturate it with s3 wounds really easy :(
    If you find violence isn't the answer, you're simply not being violent enough.
  • Aramir wrote:

    Smythen wrote:

    I think vgun gets to much hate.
    It really zones well, if placed carefully. And with reroll to hit from divination its just brutal.
    I've had those yellow bones of UD basically kill it for free if they go first. They don't give a crap about cover, and can saturate it with s3 wounds really easy :(
    Had that problem too. I love the volleygun but it is too easy killed by anything ranged...

    EoS has problems with the los rules in 2.0,especially volleygun and mortar. Maybe it should be possible for artillery to draw los though parent and Support units. Like they are trained to make way for friendly artillery. Would make the mortar much more useful and maybe even the volleygun
  • Casp wrote:

    VG just need an artificier and screen to released all their power.
    KoGS with musician are perfect or electoral cavalry, cheaper, but could be not enough in some specific matchup.
    But by then we're talking at the cheapest for 475 points (200, 125, 150 for a skirmisher state militia chaff). Steep :/

    Imagine you'll get two good rounds of shooting, and in one you eat the -1 for rolling a six, and another -1 for long range. Second round is perfect... will it outperform a screaming horde of 30 flaggies that the enemy will cringe to engage as they'll be locked in there forever? Or 30 HW/shield IG that make a incredible anvil as well? :/

    Different methods of board control, aye, but not sure the VG is getting it's points back as regularly as the anvil of imperial guard is.
    If you find violence isn't the answer, you're simply not being violent enough.
  • You can sacrify your artificier to get one extra chaff. If the opponent decide to advance, you should manage at least 3 round of shoot not 2.
    Has you get 2 spell to boost artillery +1 to shoot and reroll ( rerool should be dispell) so you get +1

    So in general i got
    first turn of shoot at 3+
    second turn of shoot at 2or3+
    last turn of shoot at 3+

    With missfire and cover, we turn around 40 hit S5. Enough to wipout any deathstar or monster.

    An IG anvil isent the same cost. Ok the VG need artificier, KoGS screen, ranger chaff, wizard .. But all those units needed, are also able to perform by themself and could even serve other synergie.
    cas-p.net / graphic & web designer.
    SE - VS - O&G - EoS / 9th age player.

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Casp ().