Can I whine now? :D

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  • Funny. @Blonde Beer it seems not OnG was first but KoE :)

    Damn are we good at whining. :P

    So first. Some clearly difference

    On first look barbarians do look stronger. But are they? For a tarpit unit they aren't. They cost more. They aren't insignificant. They can't play 60 models. They are 25*25 base. They lack serf. Peasants have access to Oath Ld

    30swoard and board cost 130+105+30 points = 265 points = 90 points more.

    So from a defensive point of view? Nope peasants are clearly better.

    Offensive? Well yeah they are better. No point denying it. A horde of barbarians with a giant inside with greatswords s6 ap2 sounds good.

    That is why they got cheaper. No one played them. Hopefully now people will try them.


    Also KoE has a mean bowline if you want

    About zealots to grails
    While I agree that grails are a tad expensive they are clearly better.
    They have
    • Divine attacks
    • 5++ always
    • +1 agi
    • Lance formation
    • Fight in extra rank
    • Hide Damsel inside them


    The most point factor of grails is most likely the ward and Lance formation and divine. These rules alone are like 10 ppm.

    10 chaos warriors have 2 rank and break up to 14goblins.
    9 grails have 3 ranks and break up to 19 goblins.

    The combination of high Dws high armor wardsave AND low frontage makes grails so good at defense you can hardly compare it.

    We can also revive grails. They can not




    But let's see it different. The Wdg is new. We should be looking forward to getting our new book :)

                    

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  • @Klexe
    1. 9 pts/model GW infantry. Let's that sink in.
    If you look only at aspect "how long they will last" barbarians will be wiped out faster than peasants. Problem is the offensive capability of barbarians with their cost. That's clearly broken.
    Also you mentioned our peasant special rules like insignificant or serf - they are nothing compared to battle fever now.

    2. Wariors have:

    • tons of rules to choose
    • three weapons to choose (hand weapon, lance or gw)
    • 1+ armor save wchich is superior or at least very similiar to 2+/5++
    • still having 5++ ward against toxic attacks
    • reroll break test
    • 9ld if you take champion
    • imo better horses
    • don't have any stupid limitations on how many characters you can have in unit
    • don't have any impact on your other army picks (we can't take artilery if we take 2x grails)
    • 0-5 units per army
    WDG magic easily kills more grails than you can revive.

    EDIT: Also in compepetitive lists you see nearly zero shooting from KoE. We can't shoot.
  • Klexe wrote:

    Funny. @Blonde Beer it seems not OnG was first but KoE
    Well I do feel KOE needs a lot of love. Cant complain then that the KOE players feel the same.
    If it was just my solo choice I would start rewriting the book today. I will fight for getting them upped in the line though although I feel the project realises they need an update rather sooner than later.
  • Cross references of two different books doesn't make really sense. Our less popular units are cheaper too, like scorpion and brigands. They are crazy cheap according to other players who have bolt thrower and archers in their armies. They are right, both of this Equitaine units are really cheap.

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  • Can I whine now? :D

    Trains_Get_Robbed wrote:

    They are also AWSRs. Did you take the WDG units AWSR into account? Stop bringing in outside topics that are disimilar w relatable,

    His points hold validity. Base stats listed there compared to cost defy fairness, or equatable ability. And sure they don’t need to be perfectly equtaible in design, but each army is supposed to excel at certain elements, or have certain syergies. To have such a large gap in points is silly, and befuddling.
    ________________________________


    I don’t understand the boost-hammer to WDG. Disappointing to say the least.

    The teams behind project management dynamics, changes, announcements, etc . . . hasn’t once met a deadline or provided a release structure that’s been adhered to.

    This change (as most of their changes are) was eclectic and came from nowhere seemingly. A largely unneeded, and biased boosting of units, unit upgrades, and costs that step on other books mechanics all while being justified through what means? Not background, or data analytics -moreso ivory tower “feelings.”

    The lack of direction, biases, hypocritical design initiatives, and scheduling with the project simply keeps rearing its head. I’ve accepted it long ago, but with every release like this I just roll my eyes.
    I have been participating in the WDG forum forum some time now and can attest that the staff has really tried to listen to the feedback. Also, there have been extensive discussions combined with calculations both static and from tournaments. So I think these decissions do not come from an ivory tower at all.

    It Will always be the case that there are armies who are marginally stronger then others in general. And through the rock-paper-sciccors mechanism, sometimes much stronger against certain races. But WDG has been at the lower level of power for a long time. Perhaps the boost given now is to much. In that case the next round will see some point increases do not Worry. We will playtest and feedback out results to the staff.

    On the book of KoE, absolutely you guys deserve a competitive book. And I hope an update will arrive shortly.

    Cheers and despair not, just charge those cheap naked Barbarian Warriors with your mighty steeds and all will be good.

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  • 1/ 100% prefer Grail Knights to Warrior Knights. LOL we get Divine attacks, a ward save and better agility.
    2/ Peasants 40 are 345pts with spears and full command, barbarians are 485 for spears and full command.
    3/ The units perform different roles in the two armies.
    4/ I've said this 100 times, but you have to stop comparing across armies. That is not the way this works. If you want to use barbarians, go and play WDG.
    5/ The book isn't final yet. It will be rebalanced at some point.
    6/ Always moaning is so depressing, our book is in a really strong place at the moment.
    Mainly play KoE and OnG

    England Lions captain 2019/2020

    Rory Stoves - Member of The London Wargaming Guild (WHGG / LWG)
    Find us at meetup.com/The-London-Warhammer-Gaming-Guild/
  • Strong and yet so very disappointing.

    Not everyone is a powergamer. Imagine that.

    If one cannot voice their opinion, positive or negative, then what is the point of a forum?
    "In the end rules are just the groundwork for 2 players to have an agreement on how the game is played. If you friends/gaming group is fine with it you can do what ever you want with the game." - Smart Guy on the T9A forum

    "By the Lady, is that Elderberries I smell?" - Duke Niemar of Snowfall's Eves
  • You think our book is disappointing?

    We definitely disagree then.

    I have no problem in voicing opinions, but as Klexe alluded too we have a reputation for the most whiney boards. That is a disappointing reputation to have, in my opinion.
    Mainly play KoE and OnG

    England Lions captain 2019/2020

    Rory Stoves - Member of The London Wargaming Guild (WHGG / LWG)
    Find us at meetup.com/The-London-Warhammer-Gaming-Guild/
  • When I say disappointing I am talking about internal balance (grail vs quest f.e.), connection to lore (legacy and new) and army playstyles (flying circus, scoring darts). NOT external power level, just so you know.

    Dissent is often reduced to whining by those who do not share the same sentiment on the matter. At least people are "whining" in a friendly and somewhat civilized manner followed by a discussion on how to fix the problems, what more can one ask for on a forum?

    P. S. Some people have been complaining for a long time since there had been little to no feedback and transparacy from people with power. This has changed to the better imo, but remember that the feeling of being unheard causes frustration for alot of people.
    "In the end rules are just the groundwork for 2 players to have an agreement on how the game is played. If you friends/gaming group is fine with it you can do what ever you want with the game." - Smart Guy on the T9A forum

    "By the Lady, is that Elderberries I smell?" - Duke Niemar of Snowfall's Eves

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Duke Niemar ().

  • Also, the great virtue fiasco did not help.
    "In the end rules are just the groundwork for 2 players to have an agreement on how the game is played. If you friends/gaming group is fine with it you can do what ever you want with the game." - Smart Guy on the T9A forum

    "By the Lady, is that Elderberries I smell?" - Duke Niemar of Snowfall's Eves