VS Brainstorming for LAB

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  • VS Brainstorming for LAB

    Alright gang. Let's move our discussion here. I like the progress we've made towards focusing our efforts. Let's do that here - and yes, feel free to copy/paste anything over you've already contributed that you feel meets our requests:

    - Think of concepts, not points
    - Think of styles of play, not legacy builds
    - Think of special rules and how they support the slot (magic/shooting + lots of bodies) that we fill in the T9A world.


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  • For this year there won't be more than ID and DE. There is currently no further release plan, just the structure to release up to 4 books per year, starting with next year. But I'm quite sure LAB VS is one of the more urgent ones, dont't't you think so, Shane? So my personal bet is next year!
    @Lich King Thanks for the info, It's a long wait even if we are number 5. And yea we're urgent :O


    -We need a new optional play style as others have stated. We are hated as a race because of our excessive shooting, I don't care about that poll from years ago, Combat style Vermin Swarm should be one of our options, and its to everyone's benefit (especially our opponents)

    -Start by removing core tax, removing state of trance and adding Banner of the Endless Swarm effect to SIN
    Add Niceguy's idea 'units only needs to be 7 wide for line formation and may add ranks despite being in line'

    - Vermin Guard- swap shield for plate armour, add +1str+1ap balance the price externally vs things like imperial guard etc

    - Maybe also raise core to 30% if ye think they are too good, that's an extra 225pts taken away from our guns and wheels, which is a lot, but VG would be good so there's that...the 30% core could perhaps exist only if VG are taken? A possible balance tool?

    An alternative idea for VG would be to give them a big combat boost when they are engaging an enemy in the flank/rear/have more ranks then the the enemy or are attacking a unit which has 50% or less hp- This supports the concept that they are second line elite troops who become emboldened when the odds are in their favour. It would encourage a sort of weaken the enemy from range or with lesser troops first strategy so the VG can butcher a disadvantaged enemy.


    -RAA Would probably be ok with the few extra weak attacks, and removal of core tax. A new banner should be created to give them access to underground ambush or just a unit upgrade. (we need more variety and roles as @niceguy.dk has been preaching

    Slaves Access to underground ambush (limited 1 or 2 units with UA?)

    -lots of ideas flying around for Plague Bro's, take your pic. The much sought after toxic/poison seems to be out of the question, but there are some nice ideas flying around involving magic support/hex.

    Giant rats would be fine a little more swarmy with the AWSR change @niceguy.dks idea about merging them with Footpads should be explored

    Footpads could/should have 'Feigned Flight' as an optional upgrade, They are fine as cheap scorers but it would be nice if they were not so boring. They could do with just 1 extra optional rule. We need more options in the movement phase.

    Other related ideas.
    - New Banner to replace Endless Swarm. Something like temporary Swiftstride and strider ruins? or a channelling banner
    - Meatgrinder can join who ever you want
    -Underground Ambush for RAA and Slaves

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Grey Seer Snachett ().

  • Edit: Keep in mind this is not me as a ACS knowing anything, or with the power to vote for anything. So it's basically just fan stuff.

    @Grey Seer Snachett it really is community ideas I am just compiling and adjusting :) So this is also just what I have picked up and found would solve our internal balance issue and give unused units a purpose. Don't think points.

    This is the core I would hope to see. Now I am all about making stuff as tight as possible. This is very few changes but will change our internal balance a lot. Also keep in mind I would remove State of Trance so pendulum can come support VD and RaA as well.

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    Rat at Arms
    Use: Stable bunker, Bell pushers, Pendulum Pushers, Parry Tarpit, Giant spear block, Main Broods Courage unit. Weapon Team Safety.
    A stable outcome unit

    Vermin Gaurd
    Use: Best Combat unit, Big or Small agressive combat unit, Bell pushers, Pendulum Pushers.
    A stable outcome unit

    Slaves ()
    Use: Tarpit, Callous enhancer, Gunline army unit,
    A stable outcome unit

    Monks
    Use: CC unit in hex heavy armies. Bell pushers, Pendulum Pushers. Bunker.
    A potential outcome unit.

    Giant Rats
    Use: Giant CC units, Fast small flankers, WM hunters, Objective takers.

    Footpads (Merged into Giant Rats and Grenadiers. Maybe give grenadiers another name so both globadier and nightrunner models would fit.)

    Granadiers (Moved to core but also counts towards Tunnel Gunnery)
    Use: Fire Support
    #removestubbornfrompendulum - VS should always try to claim steadfast.
    VS ACS - IDDQD
    My Elementgames code: FRE7850, in case you need one, + sent me yours (win/win)
  • Was thinking about Abomination:

    What if we tipped the standard variable attacks model on its head and went with one representing a reduction of attacks as wounds were taken. Essentially cutting off an arm etc. We can then introduce a regeneration mechanic which would allow both HP and Att to “regrow”. Super fluffy.

    We would probably need to also tip the agility on its head and make it super high as otherwise the starting attacks would need to be ridiculous to compensate for hitting second.

    It would make it a shooting magnet, but would then put the focus on generalship again as our opponent needs to correctly target prioritise while our list building would become more interesting as the various methods of target saturation or taking down their shooting faster than they can kill out Abom could be investigated.
    "The combination of lemon and habenero peppers was confusing to me. I will pay for this tomorrow i think." - Rosanjin Scholar, Iron Chef
  • I believe we all agree that greatest pain is lack of choices, auto-includes and 50% of our army book being dead.

    The army has too little playstyles. Too little playstyles limit roles for units. Limited roles for units means units start to overlap. When units overlap some are a bit better and the rest become dead options. ADT tries to fix it making best units 0-1, introducing artificial purposes like LightningRodBearers and PendulumPushers or restricting units to a single purpose (slaves, rats).

    On the top of this our army is supposed to be ranged glass cannon. Weak protection, strong magic and shooting. But players don't want glass cannons. Dreadmills are tough, Vermin Hulks are tough, Pendulum, Bell, Demon are tough. R@A offer multiple HP. Those units win competition with our glass cannon units because they allow to conserve points. After all talking about army needing more randomness players opt for less random, more secure options.

    What about a small redesign to our callous rule? Make it two rules: callous and callous(slaves)
    Regular callous works as it works now.
    Callous(slaves) allows you to shoot into combat where there are only your slaves Units. Add the rule to Catapult, Dreadmill.
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  • hasker wrote:

    Fleshbeast wrote:

    Was thinking about Abomination:
    My suggestion for the Abomb would be to loose fortitude, get 12 HP and get distracting (to stop it from bleeding negative combat score).
    I think we're fairly well aligned mate but with my regen option I'd probably start with 10 wounds/Attacks and have it regain on a 5+ at the end of whichever round it took the wound. So you could regrow after a round of shooting for example.
    "The combination of lemon and habenero peppers was confusing to me. I will pay for this tomorrow i think." - Rosanjin Scholar, Iron Chef
  • Fleshbeast wrote:

    hasker wrote:

    Fleshbeast wrote:

    Was thinking about Abomination:
    My suggestion for the Abomb would be to loose fortitude, get 12 HP and get distracting (to stop it from bleeding negative combat score).
    I think we're fairly well aligned mate but with my regen option I'd probably start with 10 wounds/Attacks and have it regain on a 5+ at the end of whichever round it took the wound. So you could regrow after a round of shooting for example.
    Regenerating HP and/or attacks would be cool and fluffy, and fit the image that most people have about the abomb, but it would also be more things/rules to keep track of and your luck on the regeneration roles would be very important for the performance of the model. You will essentially be more inclined to trust on luck. This is no difference than today with a random number of attacks, so instead of having a random number of attacks you would randomly regain attacks, but if you tie both attacks and HP to this, it might be putting to much faith in rolling average (or preferably above average in the eyes of the VS player). Also, you haven’t specified when and how the regeneration rolls would be made. Do you roll x d6 at the end of each phase where X equals how many wounds is lost that phase or does X equals how many HPs/attacks it currently has below starting values? If the latter, what happens if it takes no wounds but has taken previously, does it still role the dice or only if it has suffered wounds? Should the dice rolling be limited to the magic, shooting and close combat phase? Should it role the regeneration dice before or after calculating combat score (so should it be able to nullify wounds received in the same combat round by regenerating them)?

    I like your suggestion, but I like mine for the simplicity. Minimum special rules and minimum things to keep track of.

    Assistant head of HR Team

  • hasker wrote:

    My suggestion for the Abomb would be to loose fortitude, get 12 HP and get distracting (to stop it from bleeding negative combat score).
    Maybe 8HP and Recover a HP in the beginning of movement Phase for each Veil Token, max 3 / Player Turn.
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  • I personally really don´t like our Hereditary Spell. I mean don´t get me wrong, it´s a strong spell and I use it quite often...

    But in the end it is something more shooty and first we have plenty of it and second people complaining about it.

    Maybe change it to something we could use to push the Horde-thing a bit more.
    Maybe a Augment giving fight in extra rang. Or pushing the rats into kind of frenzy so letting everyone do another attack after they died in combat. (Bit like Vengence Seeker) Yeah normally quite unverminswarm like but with some nasty magic it´s easier so sacrifice others you don´t need anymore.


    Just some more ideas trying to think outside of the box.
    [Didn´t thought it all through to the end so don´t be offended when some ideas are not good. But maybe someone can make them good. ;)]

    - If the opponent is smaller then half the VS-Unit they must test against Fear. When the Opponent is larger then the VS-Unit then the VS must test against fear. Maybe only in the Charge-Turn, ´cause a large Horde of charging Verminswarm can look quite dangerous.

    - Give PB one toxic attack per full rank (maybe max.3).

    - More Poison for characters on foot.

    - Assassins? Haven´t seen nor used them in a long time. Drop them and maybe give some of his stuff as upgrade possibility for Tyrants. So if you really want to try having some sneaky killing close Combat character you can take one. Maybe that way we would even see a few more Tyrants.

    - Give all VS Units some Special rule like slaves had in the old days. When they break they do some damage, ´cause they some are fighting to the death but after that they are gone. If you run, you just simple stop running until you are faaaar awaaaayy from any danger.

    - Drop the Daemon and exchange it with something with similar role... was allways wondering why they would summon some giant demons but no smaller ones. Doesn´t make sense that there aren´t smaller usefull ones if there is a big one. But if we get them we are to close to DL.

    - Why not using some kind of Cav? I mean yeah could be problems with miniaturs. I think that´s also an mistake from old times. (I get the non flyer ´cause of living underground but no cav? I mean the tunnels are large enough for abo´s and Cannons)

    - Drop the slaves. Give the R&A´s the tarpit job. We don´t need another cheap tarpet unit.

    - Make the Lightning Cannon weaker but give it the possibility to use Veil token to get powered up- [Yeah someone else wrote that allready but I liked the idea.] Exchange the lightning with magic and we are closer to a fantasy setting some people want.
    -Quite similar give the machinist something to use Veiltokes for some magic gun shooty stuff. Or the other way around... produce Veiltoken
  • Talking about using veiltokens for non magic phase stuff - Is it not a bit of a handicap? Personally I feel like magic does a lot of heavy lifting, and I need all the power I can get. I wouldn't really wanna limit my magic in any ways.

    With magic it's kind a this thing, where the power of it is 'exponential' for every dice between you and your opponent. So losing PD is big IMO. What is peoples experience and do you feel like using veils for boosting anything outside magic would really be a good idea? We already have one item doing this and I wouldn't touch it - Has anybody used it?
    #removestubbornfrompendulum - VS should always try to claim steadfast.
    VS ACS - IDDQD
    My Elementgames code: FRE7850, in case you need one, + sent me yours (win/win)
  • niceguy.dk wrote:

    Talking about using veiltokens for non magic phase stuff - Is it not a bit of a handicap? Personally I feel like magic does a lot of heavy lifting, and I need all the power I can get. I wouldn't really wanna limit my magic in any ways.

    With magic it's kind a this thing, where the power of it is 'exponential' for every dice between you and your opponent. So losing PD is big IMO. What is peoples experience and do you feel like using veils for boosting anything outside magic would really be a good idea? We already have one item doing this and I wouldn't touch it - Has anybody used it?
    My experience echo's your own 100% in this regard. Please don't force us to spend veil tokens to 'boost' the performance out of lighting shots etc (guaranteed to miss if you do boost) That magical artefact in the book is one I read the first time, shook my head and chose to never consider it for the reason you stated.
    As for the Abom? yea replenishing HP in some way sounds like a perfect fit. The 'rage' rule a few monsters have should be considered too.
  • niceguy.dk wrote:

    Talking about using veiltokens for non magic phase stuff - Is it not a bit of a handicap?
    Yes it is. But it is done on purpose. I believe we are now at a deadlock with magic and shooting being our two complementary strengths. Magic comes from characters. Shooting comes from units. Maxing out one does not prevent us from maxing out the other. The result is instead having two styles one magic dependent, the other shooting dependent we have a single style magic+shooting. Neither of them can be overwhelming on its own or players would take both.
    Maybe Veil Token / darkstone economy could be used to boost performance of machines / monsters / enchanted items. To balance different playstyles giving us options to play with one type of units amplified. You can invest in Aboms and boost them with veil tokens. But your shooting / magic will be affected.
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  • As someone who was sad to see the Power Gauntlet (name?) or whatever item that had the double strength bound spell get removed from the book, I absolutely would love to see Veil Token expenditure become a mechanic to boost our rats. I say this with the caveat that we also have more ways of generating Veil Tokens to compensate.

    Can you seriously say that wouldn't want to see this:
    Power Gauntlet:
    At the start of the Combat Phase, the bearer may spend up to 3 Veil Tokens to gain +X Strength and +X Armour Piercing per token spent. Effects last until the start of the next friendly turn.

    Even a Chief could become a significant combat threat with an item like this, let alone an Assassin or Tyrant.
  • JimMorr wrote:

    niceguy.dk wrote:

    Talking about using veiltokens for non magic phase stuff - Is it not a bit of a handicap?
    Yes it is. But it is done on purpose. I believe we are now at a deadlock with magic and shooting being our two complementary strengths. Magic comes from characters. Shooting comes from units. Maxing out one does not prevent us from maxing out the other. The result is instead having two styles one magic dependent, the other shooting dependent we have a single style magic+shooting. Neither of them can be overwhelming on its own or players would take both.Maybe Veil Token / darkstone economy could be used to boost performance of machines / monsters / enchanted items. To balance different playstyles giving us options to play with one type of units amplified. You can invest in Aboms and boost them with veil tokens. But your shooting / magic will be affected.
    To me this sounds like an aux book. Say if you would expand on this so more options is available, you shot down the magic phase to the point where it will be inefficient to bring a caster. So either you should go with magic or without which means you need enough items in the book to spend a whole magic phase worth of tokens. The units and items which use veil tokes will not be useful in a magic army, so we would split the book in half, and untimely lists will be divided instead of having an open book. I like it for aux but for main book I think it will ultimately be very bad.

    EDIT: I like the concept, but that it should be in a 100% AUX tech army with no magic and all the random weapons and tables. Lots of options for boosting and exploding. RaA, Slaves, VG (with lighting tech) weapon teams, thunderhulks, Mills, Cannons, Jezails, Grenadiers and a Tech version of the bell or something. That would be interesting.

    The Unmarked wrote:

    Can you seriously say that wouldn't want to see this:
    Power Gauntlet:
    At the start of the Combat Phase, the bearer may spend up to 3 Veil Tokens to gain +X Strength and +X Armour Piercing per token spent. Effects last until the start of the next friendly turn.

    Even a Chief could become a significant combat threat with an item like this, let alone an Assassin or Tyrant.
    I much rather see a bound spell - but actually I rather not see it at all because I like the Nerf/No Buff as an overall concept. Also Tail+Paired+Heros+3+S is not gonna fly ever :) It would make our tyrants insane.

    Remember we have one item using this concept already - have anyone used it and what did they think?
    #removestubbornfrompendulum - VS should always try to claim steadfast.
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    The post was edited 1 time, last by niceguy.dk ().

  • niceguy.dk wrote:

    EDIT: I like the concept, but that it should be in a 100% AUX tech army with no magic and all the random weapons and tables. Lots of options for boosting and exploding. RaA, Slaves, VG (with lighting tech) weapon teams, thunderhulks, Mills, Cannons, Jezails, Grenadiers and a Tech version of the bell or something. That would be interesting.
    And what if our magic was boosted at the same time? For example The Awakened Swarm became Rep? Or Plague Brotherhood were given options to gain Wizard Conclave? I mean we should be able to focus on magic or on shooting to create competitive army. Today we need both...
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  • JimMorr wrote:

    niceguy.dk wrote:

    EDIT: I like the concept, but that it should be in a 100% AUX tech army with no magic and all the random weapons and tables. Lots of options for boosting and exploding. RaA, Slaves, VG (with lighting tech) weapon teams, thunderhulks, Mills, Cannons, Jezails, Grenadiers and a Tech version of the bell or something. That would be interesting.
    And what if our magic was boosted at the same time? For example The Awakened Swarm became Rep? Or Plague Brotherhood were given options to gain Wizard Conclave? I mean we should be able to focus on magic or on shooting to create competitive army. Today we need both...
    Non of these will matter if you spend your Veiltokens on static boosts to shooting. A strong magic phase is about dominance, if you give that away by giving your tokens away you basically leave your magic phase to pure luck.

    About the needing both is because all our damage is in magic and shooting so to change that you would need stronger CC.

    So just to sum up my conviction - Everything you make depended on vieltokens will only work optimal in a non-magic army. So you will make some units in the book unusable with other and we are back at limited lists.

    That is something for an AUX book, not our main book. IMO.

    (ptsssst did anyone use our focus stone, and how did it work?)
    #removestubbornfrompendulum - VS should always try to claim steadfast.
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  • niceguy.dk wrote:

    Non of these will matter if you spend your Veiltokens on static boosts to shooting. A strong magic phase is about dominance, if you give that away by giving your tokens away you basically leave your magic phase to pure luck.
    But this is the point. You can focus either on magic or on shooting. E.G. you take two towers with catapults and jezzails or you take just a single prophet but go instead for two lightnings cannons and a pair of dreadmills all able to burn somehow veil tokens. The choice is about selecting something at the cost of something. Not about being able to use everything. Today we can select almost everything and as the result we have really no choice.

    We can have powerful magic and capable shooting. Or powerful shooting and capable monsters & combat characters. Both in one Book. But no one will allow us to have powerful magic and powerful shooting and capable monster and cheap tarpits on the top of that. This is similar to our 'Core issue'. We want to have capable infantry but to keep them in Cores. 1/3 of them are never used, 1/3 of them are really 0-1 choices but we insist that we need them all in Cores. Buffing and nerfing used / unused unit will not solve it, units will just swap places.
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  • I though about darkshard, what it is background-wise. Unlike warpstone it might be something that just is able to store arcane power. Darkshard batteries allowing to store additional tokens. Either to boost our shooting / aboms even more at the cost of magic... or quite opposite to get a magic splike when it is needed. Engineer with battery could be useful for both magic-focused army and technology-focused.
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