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  • Folomo wrote:

    Duke Niemar wrote:

    Yeah, I would say that combined arms should be our strongest overall
    This seems to be quite the opposite of what I have read. I would be pretty surprised if this is a common opinion among KoE players.
    "I would say" is the important part there. I never speak for others unless they want me to. Democracy.

    Having a combined arms list is the epitome of high skill ceiling, and thus you should be able to get the most power out of it. You need to understand many different unit types, their impact on your strategy and which units they counter from the opponent. Wrong choices will destroy you, but with a well executed strategy where each unit performs its role you will be the one doing the destroying. Well, if we disregard the dice ofcourse ...

    With a one-trick pony list, like full cavalry, you gamble on that the enemy or the battlefield will trade favourably to you. You hope they got a list that does not counter you. It is like rolling a dice, on 4+ you win. Otherwise you lose.

    And why should players that have collected many different unit types and are able to use them in concert lose to someone that just goes all monstermash and gangbang your units with 4 treemen while the rest of their army hides behind a hill?

    All we have ever really wanted was that all our playstyles would be viable. With combined arms, in my opinion, perhaps being the best representation of our army power.

    I am ranting. People can think what they want.
    "In the end rules are just the groundwork for 2 players to have an agreement on how the game is played. If you friends/gaming group is fine with it you can do what ever you want with the game." - Smart Guy on the T9A forum

    "By the Lady, is that Elderberries I smell?" - Duke Niemar of Snowfall's Eves

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Duke Niemar ().

  • The correct answer to the million dollar question is synergy.

    A bard that helps knights?

    A proper buff shrine?

    Knights not running from the field because of dead peasants?

    Damsel protected on horse but not on foot?

    Pick your poison.
    "In the end rules are just the groundwork for 2 players to have an agreement on how the game is played. If you friends/gaming group is fine with it you can do what ever you want with the game." - Smart Guy on the T9A forum

    "By the Lady, is that Elderberries I smell?" - Duke Niemar of Snowfall's Eves
  • Well, yeah that too. But since that is more of a subjective matter I cannot really comment on it as fiercely here.

    I am a sucker for historical representation adapted to a fantasy setting. It is why I like to play as a human, or semi-human. And as I have said before, historical armies usually were not a majority of cavalry and never exclusively. Even the mongols had large contingents of infantry and foot archers in their forces.

    In a skirmish setting you could see cavalry only as it perhaps could represent a small regiment fighting in a small section of a larger battlefield.
    "In the end rules are just the groundwork for 2 players to have an agreement on how the game is played. If you friends/gaming group is fine with it you can do what ever you want with the game." - Smart Guy on the T9A forum

    "By the Lady, is that Elderberries I smell?" - Duke Niemar of Snowfall's Eves
  • Folomo wrote:

    Duke Niemar wrote:

    Yeah, I would say that combined arms should be our strongest overall
    This seems to be quite the opposite of what I have read. I would be pretty surprised if this is a common opinion among KoE players.
    It is a more historic and realistic approche to the game which is appealing i dare say.

                    

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  • Forlorns are such an anvil @Klexe. Lol.

    Army strengths and weaknesses did not have combined arms number one. I know Marcos and others prefer that style of play, but it has never been the community’s preference. Just one of our options and a long way behind all mounted.
    Mainly play KoE and OnG

    England Lions captain 2019/2020

    Rory Stoves - Member of The London Wargaming Guild (WHGG / LWG)
    Find us at meetup.com/The-London-Warhammer-Gaming-Guild/
  • Raughri wrote:

    Forlorns are such an anvil @Klexe. Lol.

    Army strengths and weaknesses did not have combined arms number one. I know Marcos and others prefer that style of play, but it has never been the community’s preference. Just one of our options and a long way behind all mounted.
    actually it was. in fact "all mounted" was never even an option. Word for word was "Cavalry based", big difference between "all" and "based". And the three were cavalry based, combined arms, and flying circus, IN that particular order however i think at the time they were meant to be equal. Interpret those how you will but what you said is not at all true
  • For me Forlorns are never an anvil as they lack crucial rules like
    • Bodyguard
    • Stubborn
    • Unbreakable
    • Parry


    Or anything which makes them hold quite reliably.

    Even a monster flank charging Forlorns can break them.
    Or any unit which breaks steadfast.

    Or just the good old bigger deathstar from the front.

    They are elite infantry but they are not an anvil. Their rules also show that they are more dmg oriented instead of holding and migating dmg.


    Also they are not on horse. If I talk about an anvil I mean an horse unit anvil.
    And no a 15 long bus of Questing or grails are not anvils. Again many enemies just run over it in one turn

                    

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  • So crusaders with a reliquary are an anvil?

    They have both bodyguard and parry.

    Forlorns are an anvil, high weapons skill, good armour (better with a reliquary), can have a 5+ ward save. They can grind. Yes you can fail a leadership roll, but so can stubborn/bodyguard units.

    A monster in a flank would have to do (even if you went horde formation and only had 24 Forlorns and a reliquary) would have to do 16 wounds, to break steadfast, otherwise you are testing on at least an 8 rerollable.
    Mainly play KoE and OnG

    England Lions captain 2019/2020

    Rory Stoves - Member of The London Wargaming Guild (WHGG / LWG)
    Find us at meetup.com/The-London-Warhammer-Gaming-Guild/
  • Raughri wrote:

    Right, so you are saying cavalry based and combined arms are the same thing?
    They can both be the same thing. And for us they are in some instances.

    Sylvans can have a fast cav based Combined Arms. Dread Elves can have a monster based Combined Arms. Greenskins can have a chariot based Combined Arms. We can have a heavy cavalry based Combined Arms. I can go on.

    The ASAW is poorly worded since cavalry based should be our overall focus not a single playstyle. That does not mean only cavalry. It should mean that we are at our strongest when we have cavalry in our lists because it is our speciality. We can chose not to ofcourse, if for some reason we do not want cav for a game.

    It is like saying that only clanrats should be the best thing for VS because horde mentality is their strength.

    Heavy cavalry is what we should be best at, but we should not be at our best with only that. Big difference.
    "In the end rules are just the groundwork for 2 players to have an agreement on how the game is played. If you friends/gaming group is fine with it you can do what ever you want with the game." - Smart Guy on the T9A forum

    "By the Lady, is that Elderberries I smell?" - Duke Niemar of Snowfall's Eves

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Duke Niemar ().

  • Raughri wrote:

    Right, so you are saying cavalry based and combined arms are the same thing?
    as i said... Interpret it how you will, but the point is that combined arms is one of our MAIN intended list styles. And what you said: "a long way behind all mounted" is a lie or complete misunderstanding, despite you saying it with such confidence
  • ASAW is nearly dead we should not really discuss about it again.

    Many of us KoE players want Cav which can fight even in a longer fight , but supported by other kinds of troops like foot soldiers.

    My dream is still to stay on an medievil organice army sheet:

    This means a good mix of Peasant units like Bowmen , scouts , hunters , light infantry. Trained foot soldiers with units like Heavy infantry with pikes /swords and mid heavy infantry sword , Crossbow. Warmaschines like scorpion , trebuchet. Cav here also light cav , medium cav and heavy cav.
    On top of this Pegasus Knights as Medium and heavy troops.

    For chars Hippo , Horses and Unicorns.

    No ghosts or something like that , but maybe element units (water cause of the lady) but for this we first need a BG.


    I like the grail /quest way much and would love to stay at it.

    But there are so many discussions about this open , lets use this thread for WTC.


    About the Koe lists on WTC:
    You can see on this lists we are spezialist. We have many bad match up and only a few good but this good ones we need to come in , this is why we only use this less amount of different entrys. The internal Balance seams to be not very well and the AP problem , pray problem stays. I personal wanted also to play KoE on WTC but together with my team we decided to take HbE cause of the flexibility.

    @Klexe can you made a break down of used items /units? If not i will try to do as soon i have time.

    Head of Playtesting

    Lord of Chaos , Duke of Equitaine , Cuatl of the Golden City , Herold of the Empire , Summoner of Pestilence , Lord of the Sea WotdG,KoE,SA,EoS, and DL and new HE but with Dragon Empire Ordo Sanctae Mariae Teutonicorum
  • Raughri wrote:

    So crusaders with a reliquary are an anvil?

    They have both bodyguard and parry.

    Forlorns are an anvil, high weapons skill, good armour (better with a reliquary), can have a 5+ ward save. They can grind. Yes you can fail a leadership roll, but so can stubborn/bodyguard units.

    A monster in a flank would have to do (even if you went horde formation and only had 24 Forlorns and a reliquary) would have to do 16 wounds, to break steadfast, otherwise you are testing on at least an 8 rerollable.
    Yes crusaders are more of an anvil then Forlorns imo but even they suck as they are just not good enough and still bleed too much cr. A 4+ as is just nothing.

    About forlorn. Yes they are elite infantry. No they are not an anvil. Beeing tanky doesn't help at all they have mediocre weapon skill. 4 is almost bottom place for an elite unit. I would say the avg is more like 5.x. There are more Ws of 6 then Ws of 3. So the avg should be 5.1 or so.

    Yes they can be very tanky if you what? Pay around 500+ extra points for Bsb and Relic and they still suck in comparison to other elite infantry (which is fine BTW they shouldn't be as good as dwarfs etc)

    But for beeing a true anvil? They need bodyguard.

    They even have to terror check. I played them they are okayish but just feel iffy and lack the last thing for me to be playable.


    But that is not really the point. I want an Cavalry anvil. Low dmg output bodyguard rule..

    That is why I play the green knight. Stubborn inside 12" of Damsel is just my playstyle. Hold enemy and flank them.


    I can do the same math I did last etc. I have already the table with all items so it should be really fast. Will do later I thing

                    

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  • @Duke Niemar and @Marcos24

    I get what you are saying, but I think interpreting cav based as another combined arms is because it fits with what you want from the army. I interpret it as something different, because I want something different from the army.

    The whole thing is skewed anyway, because the focus point is the most competitive build possible given 9th Age's raison d'être is ETC and competitive play.

    I don't believe that the Might Duke build list is the best all comers KoE list, but in a competitive environment where you can match your opponent it shines. And so everyone thinks it is our best list. It only is in that meta.

    Forlorn block and double grail are both stronger for all round play.
    Mainly play KoE and OnG

    England Lions captain 2019/2020

    Rory Stoves - Member of The London Wargaming Guild (WHGG / LWG)
    Find us at meetup.com/The-London-Warhammer-Gaming-Guild/
  • Raughri wrote:

    @Duke Niemar and @Marcos24

    I get what you are saying, but I think interpreting cav based as another combined arms is because it fits with what you want from the army. I interpret it as something different, because I want something different from the army.
    lol Raughri you keep dancing around the point. Ok let’s try this, Cavalry based is all mounted. We all agree. That’s irrelevant now, done.

    But YOU said, and I quote, “army strengths and weaknesses did not have combined arms number one“ and that combined arms “has never been the community’s preference. Just one of our options and a long way behind all mounted.“ when in fact it was top three and ahead of flying circus.

    That, is what I focused on and what you have not addressed at all. You’re blatantly avoiding that
  • Avoiding what? I've acknowledged combined arms is what you and others think should be the strongest play style for KoE.

    I disagree. I think cavalry based, interpreted as all mounted, should be.

    Also the top five play styles for KoE in order were

    Cavalry based - 96%
    Flying Circus - 57%
    Mixed Arms - 30%
    Main block (death star) - 29%
    Infantry based - 20%

    Combined arms was a long way behind cavalry based and in third place. It wasn't even close to second. And only just ahead of death star.
    Mainly play KoE and OnG

    England Lions captain 2019/2020

    Rory Stoves - Member of The London Wargaming Guild (WHGG / LWG)
    Find us at meetup.com/The-London-Warhammer-Gaming-Guild/