Bloat Fly Acid Blood - handling wounds

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  • Bloat Fly Acid Blood - handling wounds

    Most special attacks in the game are distributed. ie, Impact Hits, Breath Weapons, Stomps, and Grinds target the unit as a whole. Acid Blood does not, it specifically targets the model that made the attack, and thus is not distributed.

    At the same time, Acid Blood is an automatic hit with no to-hit roll that's generated after attack allocation. As per 15.D.d, that means there's several reasons it cannot be an 'allocated' attack.

    "At each Initiative Step, before any attacks are rolled, Close Combat Attacks must first be allocated towards enemy models."

    1. Acid Blood hits don't exist at the start of the initiative step, and thus cannot be allocated at that point.

    2. Acid Blood is not a Close Combat Attack

    "If a model is in base contact with more than one enemy model, it can choose which model to attack."

    3. The owner of the Bloat Flies does not choose which model the Acid Blood hits.

    In short, only Close Combat attacks are allocated, and Acid Blood is not a close combat attack.

    That leads me to conclude that Acid Blood attacks are only resolved against the model that provokes them, and do not 'spill over' into the hp pool of the unit. Per 16.A.a, only attacks which are either 'allocated' or 'distributed' get assigned to the health pool. As acid blood is neither, 16.A.a doesn't apply, and so it ignores health pools.

    Was this intended? Is there some other way to read this?
    Just because I'm on the Legal Team doesn't mean I know anything about rules or background in development, and if/when I do, I won't be posting about it. All opinions and speculation are my own - treat them as such.

    Legal

    Playtester

    Chariot Command HQ

  • Tyranno wrote:

    Does this mean it does not get weaker when it hits Immortals?
    Blessing of Nezibkesh applies to all Special Attacks, regardless of how the wounds are assigned, so should still apply (unless it can't apply to toxic for some reason).
    Just because I'm on the Legal Team doesn't mean I know anything about rules or background in development, and if/when I do, I won't be posting about it. All opinions and speculation are my own - treat them as such.

    Legal

    Playtester

    Chariot Command HQ

  • A couple of hiccups happened after getting the current Acid Blood out on the last update. These hiccups (some you pointed out) are being discussed within the Team and will hopefully be resolved on the next update. It wasn’t viewed as Errata worthy due to the fact we’re still working on the book and it would require many changes to the Errata every time we did something. It will most likely become a Melee Attack/Special category and will be resolved against the HP pool of attacks based on Agility order. Example..a character in a unit attacks and wounds. The acid blood splashes back onto the character and not the RnF of the unit. If the unit RnF attacks and wounds, then it affects the RnF models and not the characters in the unit, or other units who happen to be in base contact with the Flies. But, I know that may not help the cause right now based on RAW. So, for the time being, I would have to default to whatever @Eisenheinrich and company rule.
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  • Squirrelloid wrote:

    Tyranno wrote:

    Does this mean it does not get weaker when it hits Immortals?
    Blessing of Nezibkesh applies to all Special Attacks, regardless of how the wounds are assigned, so should still apply (unless it can't apply to toxic for some reason).
    <
    21.G.b.21 Toxic Attacks – Close Combat
    The attack has its Strength always set to 3 and its Armour Penetration always set to 10.

    Blessing of Nezibkesh: Personal Protection.
    All Melee Attacks from Special Attacks against
    models with Blessing of Nezibkesh have their
    Strength halved
    , rounding fractions up, and suffer
    -2 Armour Penetration.
    >

    "Always" beats "have their strength halved", see 6.D Priority of Modifiers.
  • Eisenheinrich wrote:

    <21.G.b.21 Toxic Attacks – Close Combat
    The attack has its Strength always set to 3 and its Armour Penetration always set to 10.

    Blessing of Nezibkesh: Personal Protection.
    All Melee Attacks from Special Attacks against
    models with Blessing of Nezibkesh have their
    Strength halved, rounding fractions up, and suffer
    -2 Armour Penetration.
    >

    "Always" beats "have their strength halved", see 6.D Priority of Modifiers.
    Wait. So Blessing of Nezibkesh never works against Toxic Attacks...?

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  • Eisenheinrich wrote:

    Squirrelloid wrote:

    Tyranno wrote:

    Does this mean it does not get weaker when it hits Immortals?
    Blessing of Nezibkesh applies to all Special Attacks, regardless of how the wounds are assigned, so should still apply (unless it can't apply to toxic for some reason).
    <21.G.b.21 Toxic Attacks – Close Combat
    The attack has its Strength always set to 3 and its Armour Penetration always set to 10.

    Blessing of Nezibkesh: Personal Protection.
    All Melee Attacks from Special Attacks against
    models with Blessing of Nezibkesh have their
    Strength halved
    , rounding fractions up, and suffer
    -2 Armour Penetration.
    >

    "Always" beats "have their strength halved", see 6.D Priority of Modifiers.
    See, I didn't check the Toxic part, because that wasn't the OP question.

    How does the RAW work with hp pools given Acid Blood is neither allocated nor distributed, and health pools specifically applies only to allocated or distributed wounds?
    Just because I'm on the Legal Team doesn't mean I know anything about rules or background in development, and if/when I do, I won't be posting about it. All opinions and speculation are my own - treat them as such.

    Legal

    Playtester

    Chariot Command HQ

  • Eisenheinrich wrote:


    Squirrelloid wrote:

    How does the RAW work with hp pools given Acid Blood is neither allocated nor distributed, and health pools specifically applies only to allocated or distributed wounds?
    RAW this case is not covered by the BRB.
    Regarding the OP in particular, does that mean RAW supports resolving the hits against individual models, not the unit? ie, does that mean:

    1. Models like ogres can build up wounds on multiple models from Acid Blood, because the wounds are directed at individual models, not the unit health pool?

    2. Each set of 2 hits from acid blood have to be resolved on a single model, so if it wounds twice (and would cause 2hp loss) the second wound is effectively lost against single wound models? (It can only kill the model once.)
    Just because I'm on the Legal Team doesn't mean I know anything about rules or background in development, and if/when I do, I won't be posting about it. All opinions and speculation are my own - treat them as such.

    Legal

    Playtester

    Chariot Command HQ

  • So how should it be played? Role for each model individually and assign wounds on a model basis or roll for the unit and assign wounds to the units health pool?

    What I mean is for a unit of chosen do I need to roll each one independently to see which models wound and then those models suffer the hits and then any wounds are put onto that specific model?

    Or do I roll them collectively and then place all the toxic attacks onto the Unit as if they were distributed onto the unit?
  • Squirrelloid wrote:

    Regarding the OP in particular, does that mean RAW supports resolving the hits against individual models, not the unit? ie, does that mean:
    As I said, RAW the BRB does not cover these interactions so I cannot answer your questions.
    For what it's worth, RAI is to treat the hits from acid blood like hits from attacks allocated against the model.
  • Eisenheinrich wrote:

    Squirrelloid wrote:

    Regarding the OP in particular, does that mean RAW supports resolving the hits against individual models, not the unit? ie, does that mean:
    As I said, RAW the BRB does not cover these interactions so I cannot answer your questions.For what it's worth, RAI is to treat the hits from acid blood like hits from attacks allocated against the model.
    ...?

    The model suffers the hits. That's clear from the Acid Blood rule. Mechanically we can roll to wound and determine how many hp should be lost.

    If they aren't applied to the health pool (which should be the consequence of it not being covered by the rules which apply wounds to the health pool), then doesn't that necessarily mean they're applied to the specific model, just as if it didn't belong to a unit with a health pool?

    I mean, this doesn't feel unresolvable, just different than normal. Individual models can lose hp, after all.
    Just because I'm on the Legal Team doesn't mean I know anything about rules or background in development, and if/when I do, I won't be posting about it. All opinions and speculation are my own - treat them as such.

    Legal

    Playtester

    Chariot Command HQ

  • Squirrelloid wrote:

    Individual models can lose hp
    Guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this then ;) . I'm not aware of any rule that allows individual models in a health pool (other than champions and characters) to suffer HP losses separately. 16.A.a R&F Models says otherwise.
    So sure, for models with 1 HP, if you wish to play the rules RAW (despite knowing that this does not represent RAI), you can of course roll for each attacker separately and then roll the hits from acid blood separately for each attacker (have fun rolling for 16 blades of nabh hitting 4 bloat flies ;) ).
    But for models with more than 1 HP, I don't see how this could be solved RAW, which is why I suggest to play it RAI.
  • Eisenheinrich wrote:

    Squirrelloid wrote:

    Individual models can lose hp
    Guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this then ;) . I'm not aware of any rule that allows individual models in a health pool (other than champions and characters) to suffer HP losses separately. 16.A.a R&F Models says otherwise.So sure, for models with 1 HP, if you wish to play the rules RAW (despite knowing that this does not represent RAI), you can of course roll for each attacker separately and then roll the hits from acid blood separately for each attacker (have fun rolling for 16 blades of nabh hitting 4 bloat flies ;) ).
    But for models with more than 1 HP, I don't see how this could be solved RAW, which is why I suggest to play it RAI.
    Are you saying hp damage done to individual models (say a character or a lone monster) are unresolveable if they don't have a health pool for the unit? Really?

    I mean, treating models in a unit as individual models is weird, but unresolveable? 8|
    Just because I'm on the Legal Team doesn't mean I know anything about rules or background in development, and if/when I do, I won't be posting about it. All opinions and speculation are my own - treat them as such.

    Legal

    Playtester

    Chariot Command HQ

  • Squirrelloid wrote:

    Eisenheinrich wrote:

    Squirrelloid wrote:

    Individual models can lose hp
    Guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this then ;) . I'm not aware of any rule that allows individual models in a health pool (other than champions and characters) to suffer HP losses separately. 16.A.a R&F Models says otherwise.So sure, for models with 1 HP, if you wish to play the rules RAW (despite knowing that this does not represent RAI), you can of course roll for each attacker separately and then roll the hits from acid blood separately for each attacker (have fun rolling for 16 blades of nabh hitting 4 bloat flies ;) ).But for models with more than 1 HP, I don't see how this could be solved RAW, which is why I suggest to play it RAI.
    Are you saying hp damage done to individual models (say a character or a lone monster) are unresolveable if they don't have a health pool for the unit? Really?
    I mean, treating models in a unit as individual models is weird, but unresolveable? 8|
    Looking at page 14 on Chatacteristics:
    “When a model loses this many health points it is removed as a casualty”. Seems fair enough. Lets check Losing Health Points on page 21.

    “For each unsaved wound, the attacked model immediately loses a health point”. Still talking about models, lets see Casualties then. Page 80.

    R&F Models... share a common health pool”. Hmmm. Okay so they share a common pool, but this doesn’t say they dont still individually have health points. The fact they contribute it to a pool doesnt mean they dont also exist per model.

    “If the attack was allocated towards or distributed onto a R&F model, the combined R&F health pool loses one health point for each unsaved wound”. As shown above, these are neither allocated nor distributed so we dont have to worry about this sentence.

    The only other thing I can see is under multi wound R&F “remove whole models whenever possible”. Theres no damage to the health pool so this doesny factor in, you would just remove each model as they take the wounds necessary to.

    Long story short, I think Squirrell has a point. I still wont play it that way because it would be so annoying to do, but RAW seems to support him.
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  • Squirrelloid wrote:

    Are you saying hp damage done to individual models (say a character or a lone monster) are unresolveable if they don't have a health pool for the unit? Really?

    I mean, treating models in a unit as individual models is weird, but unresolveable?
    Characters, champions, and single model units do not cause any issues, as in these cases "the model suffers a hit" is the same thing as "the model's health pool suffers a hit".

    I was talking about units consisting of R&F models with more than 1 HP - and yes, I think that the rules don't cover such units having several models that have lost health points.
    But I might of course be missing something - show me a rule that says otherwise and I'll gladly change my mind ;) .

    We're working on an erratum as we speak, so you won't have to (try to) play these rules RAW much longer anyway ;) .
  • wouldn't it work same as with DT tests?
    Example- have a large chariots with less than 3 hp per model unit. Like 2 hp per model in the statline.
    Then I'd say that when testing DT you roll 3 dice for each model and for each such batch you can lose at most 2hp (since dt are resolved on model per model basis and against a model).
    It is still one common health pool but I'd consider it similarly to for example limit on multiple wounds.

    Obviously such interpretation is terribly clumsy to be resolved such way. Rai is natural here and forces player to treat "model" as "health pool of a model".
    If we interpret it RAW (as me and squirrel attempted to outline) we have following issue:
    2A 1hp attackers vs bloat flies (or mw2). Attacker have to roll for each model separately to know which model caused how many wounds. If for example one model causes 2 wounds he is then hit by 4 toxic hits back and can be wounded up to 4 times while the guy next to him (also with 2 attacks but not causing wounds) will survive. Or consider guys who does have more than 1hp in statline but also have capability of causing more than 1 wound. Same story - roll for those ogres/chosen/other big Nasty separately.
    Obviously in same way as in DT separate r&f ogre models in same unit cannot accumulate wounds in a way how Characters could because they do share common health pool.

    I find that solution very accurate regarding actual letter of the rule but in same time cumbersome enough that I don't believe that it was massively played this way (even more so looking at play rate and perceived power level of flies). Given that it's a bug which causes the game to behave in much cumbersome way and clear intent on fixing this asap in new release I'd encourage players to treat those attacks as targeting health pool. Such solution seems to be without any unexpected problems.
  • slivek wrote:

    wouldn't it work same as with DT tests?
    That's exactly how it is supposed to work ;) , the difference being that the rules for DTT contain "Hits suffered from Dangerous Terrain Tests are distributed onto the model’s Health Pool", while the rules for acid blood don't.
    But adding this phrase to the acid blood rules is one of the solutions we're discussing.

    slivek wrote:

    Obviously in same way as in DT separate r&f ogre models in same unit cannot accumulate wounds in a way how Characters could because they do share common health pool.
    As I said, RAW you'd have to roll separately for each attacker, so we all seem to agree on that. But if I understood Squirreloid correctly, he suggested having multiple wounded models in the same unit, which I don't agree with.