My 2¢ on Empire of Sonnstahl Full Army Book Rewrite

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  • My 2¢ on Empire of Sonnstahl Full Army Book Rewrite

    I think a few things should be attempted with EoS FAB rewrite:
    • Reduction in play time. Currently, EoS participates in ever phase, tends to have a high unit count, has more auras/distance management(leadership, orders, child/parent, buff wagons), child/parent interaction and the order phase.
    • Support more models
    • Ensure all models play differently


    Army book rules

    Orders
    • On The Double: +4" March Rate, removing he the bonus to Advance simplifies the consideration of whether to pick Brace for impact! or On the Double when charging, alternatively an explicit charge order could be added.
    Support Unit
    • Stand And Shoot: should be moved to light infantry entry
    • Counter Charge: should be moved to the heavy infantry entry
    Blessings
    • Remove Hatred
    • Add 5+ Agies on first round of combat and 6+ there after
    • Change Ullor's Blessing to re-rolles to hit
    • Change Sunna's Blessing to opponent must re-roll successful special saves
    Weapons
    • Calvary Hammer +3 AP
    • Repeater Gun Range 20"
    Characters
    Knight Commander
    • Drop Young Griffon Mount
    • Knight Commanders can only join Knights of the same sect
    • Add Choose One
      • Sect 1: Vanguard(6) and +2 March
      • Sect 2: Flaming Attacks and Hard Target
      • Sect 3: Unit Gains Parent Unit
      • Sect 4: 3+ Agies vs Fire and Devastating Charge(Distracting), can not take lances
      • Sect 5: [Sun Griffon Place Holder] and must take the young griffon
    Mounts
    Drop Dragon
    Drop Pegasus
    Horse
    • Add Wing option to change base size and fly
    Change Great Griffon to Beast of The Empire
    • Increase Attacks to 5
    • Increase HP to 5
    • Add choose one upgrade option
      • Gain Breath Weapon Str 4 Ap 1 and 1d3 stomp
      • Gain Hatred vs Gigantic and Devastating Charge 1+ Attack
    Alter of Battle
    • Drop Unerring Strike as a bound spell
    • Add Wizard Adept of Thaumaturgy
    • Change to reflect blessings
    Core
    Remove State MilitiaHeavy Infantry:
    • Split into 2 entries, one which is a child with 20 to 25 models and the other a parent unit 30 to 50 models
    • Change Light Armor to Heavy Armor
    • Drop option for spear and halberds and add option pole arm(exact bonus to be determined)
    Light Infantry:
    • Change Hand Guns to 20 inches, no stand and shoot penalty and add ability Locked and Loaded: Gains Quick to Fire and March and Shoot on turn 1
    • Add option for hand gunners to have Heavy Armor
    Electoral Cavalry:
    • Split Knight Orders in to there own entry
    • Add Devastating Charge(+1 Off)
    Knights Order:
    • Add Devastating Charge(+1 Off)
    • Change AP to 0
    • Add Pick One:
      • Sect 1: Vanguard(6) and +2 March
      • Sect 2: Flaming Attacks and Hard Target
      • Sect 3: Unit Gains Parent Unit
      • Sect 4: 3+ Agies vs Fire and Devastating Charge(Distracting), can not take lances
    Special
    Knights Of the Sun Griffon:
    • Add Well trained beast: Young griffons can make 1 supporting attack
    • Add Devastating Charge(+1 Off) to Knight
    • Change AP to 0 on Knights
    • Change Def to 3
    • Change Young Griffon Off to 5
    • Change Str to 6 and AP to 2 on Young Griffons
    • [Sun Griffon Place Holder]

    Arcane Engine:
    • Drop Channel(1)
    • Add Wizard Conclave
    • Arcane Shield:
      • Wizard Conclave can choose Word Of Iron, Perception of Strength or Scrying, Flaming Swords
      • 12 inch aura -1 AP
    • [lexicon]Foresight[/lexicon]:
      • Wizard Conclave can choose Molten Copper, Ice and Fire, Pyroclastic Flow, Fate Judgement
      • Range(2+) 36" Strength 6 AP 3 Accurate, Multi Wound 1d2 and spend 1 one veil token to add one: flaming, divine, Catapult(2x1), Str +3

    Imperial AuxiliariesIncrease to 45%Artillery
    • Drop Volley Gun
    • All misfires deal 1 wound
    • Cannon
      • Add 0-1 per army if steam tank has a cannon
      • Strength 8 AP 6 Multi-wound
    • [lexicon]Mortar[/lexicon]
      • Catapult(4x4) Range 12-48 Str 4 AP 1
    • Imperial Rocket
      • Cannon Range 15-48, Shots 6 Str 5 AP 4
      • Can only misfire once per turn
    Volley Gun
    • War Platform(Light Infantry)
    • Move or Shoot
    • Range 24 shots 3d6*2 Str 4 AP 2
    • No Penalty for standing and shooting
    Imperial Rangers
    • Add choose one
      • Beast Hunter
      • Take Pistol and Paired Weapon
    • Drop Frontiersmen
    Reiters
    • Drop Light Lance and Shield
    • Vanguard(8)
    • Drop model cap since first turn range is capped at 28 inches compared to 36
    Sunna's FurySteam Tank rename to ...
    • Drop cannon and breath weapon
    • Change Grind Attacks to 1d6+1 Str 5 AP 2
    • Make Take
      • Long Rifle
      • Repeater Gun
      • Repeater Pistol
    • Add Choose One
      • Steam Tank: gain cannon and breath weapon
      • Land Ship:
        • Increase size to 100 x 150
        • Add 3 HP
        • Cannon
      • Battle Wagon
        • 6 WS 4 Str 6 Ap 3 attacks at agility 0

    Flagellants
    • Add Hatred
    • Drop Unbreakable and make them crumble

    The post was edited 6 times, last by The Changing Constant ().

  • @DarkSky, there are multiple threads complaining out the current state of EoS Knights, artillery, light infantry, the steam tank. The prelate giving hatred out has also been subject of a fair amount of discussion.

    @Bloody MIsfire, if changes are not made during the rewrite, then when would they be made.

    For light infantry, the distance between hand guns and cross bows is not significant enough to differentiate how they play. Ideally this would be addressed in the rewrite.

    Heavy infantry with halberds or spears also play nearly identically. Furthermore, a halberd is a spear.... Most players just choose the what ever weapon they have. So maybe simple merging the entries would make sense. EoS is not suppose to be a horde army, which kinda puts Heavy Infantry in a weird a design spot. And no non-elite infantry has heavy armor. I also think EoS with it industrial capacity would have good equipment even for their scrubs.

    Currently, knights in EoS are awkwardly implemented, where horse knights are simply chaff or a bus for characters. So, I was trying to break them in 3 roles, though I didn't really address electoral cavalry.

    The delta between a great griffon and pegasus are very close together in terms of power. On top of that Great Griffon is very weak mount for it base size and the model most players use. The EoS Dragon is a really niche model.
  • The Changing Constant wrote:

    there are multiple threads complaining out the current state of EoS Knights, artillery, light infantry, the steam tank.
    The forum is a place for people to moan.
    If the project changed everything that got moaned about on the t9a forum, we'd be changing 95% of the game :P

    Often, units that get moaned about the most are ones that scale non-linearly with skill: e.g. units that suit beginners but are lacklustre for top tier tournament play, or the opposite. Making every unit viable to every skill level, whilst not making anything too good at any skill level, is a hard (maybe impossible) task.

    This is why cavalry get moaned about in nearly every army book: their ability scales strongly non-linearly with player skill, because movement is the key part of their abilities.


    Also, but perhaps more importantly, don't forget that the key driver of the FAB re-write when it happens, will be to really bring the army in line with the t9a background and make it a true t9a faction.


    Caveat: All just my view, not the project's. Your mileage may vary. Wear sunscreen. May contain nuts.
    Being supportive & giving useful criticism aren't mutually exclusive.
    Are you supportive of the project? Do your posts reflect that?

    List repository and links HERE
    Basic beginners tactics HERE

    The post was edited 1 time, last by DanT ().

  • Sorry, @The Changing Constant I still do not see how any of your changes would actually make the EoS army better or fix a problem.

    Handguns and Crossbows are both valid, true Crossbows are more valued, but still players include Handguns in their lists. Of course they play similar, they are options on the same unit.

    Spears and Halberds: Don't agree. The difference is definitely there. Again: It's the same unit with a different weapon. They are not supposed to be totally different, but a variation of a specific unit.

    Blessings: I don't see any improvement in your suggestion, other than "let's brainstorm a totally different set of blessings". How are your blessings better than the existing one? Why do they lead to a better, EoS army and overall gameplay?

    Background: How is EoS not a "horde" army? For me they are exactly that! Hundreds of "normal guys". They became farmers after their military service and now their homeland is threatened by fantastical monsters. So they leave their families, pick up their Spear and Shield and move into battle. I didn't read anything in the fluff about "industrial". Good equipment only fits the bill for professional soldiers (like the Imperial Guard).

    Imperial Rangers: Frontiersman is one of the best and most fitting rules ever invented in the whole book. How on earth does somebody want to drop it?

    Flagellants: Crumble? Are they undead or supernal now?

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    My blog with battle reports and painting gallery: bleaklegion.wordpress.com/
  • Dan T I don't think your comment is entirely fair. Sure cavalry might be hard for beginners and better for experts. But what people complain about is not our Sun Griffon cavalry. The problem is that our horse knights, and especially those with lances, are badly outperformed by the chicken cav - and nearly everything else in our book. Så they don't get used much, even by experts.
  • Bloody MIsfire wrote:

    Dan T I don't think your comment is entirely fair. Sure cavalry might be hard for beginners and better for experts. But what people complain about is not our Sun Griffon cavalry. The problem is that our horse knights, and especially those with lances, are badly outperformed by the chicken cav - and nearly everything else in our book. Så they don't get used much, even by experts.
    Except for the all cav lists that started popping up, at both ETC and ESC last year... I'm pretty sure I can podium with EoS cavalry.
    I certainly don't want 50% of EoS lists to be cav heavy, so I see this as enough.
    The primary remaining issue with EoS cav is vestigial core tax, which will get reduced/removed in FAB anyway.
    So basically we are arguing over small points drops, in core. It's the smallest possible handicap, and I can guarantee you that putting work into the game will yield bigger improvements to your results than this small points drop :D
    So if you like knights, use them loads. I think it will turn out ok for you :)

    But I'm pretty sure that there is no sentence I can write on this forum that someone won't disagree with, so... *shrugs*...
    Think whatever you want, I'm on sabbatical :P
    Being supportive & giving useful criticism aren't mutually exclusive.
    Are you supportive of the project? Do your posts reflect that?

    List repository and links HERE
    Basic beginners tactics HERE
  • 2 out of 19 VTC players used Knightly Orders. That you can podium with them is irrelevant. What is relevant is that it is an underused unit and that Sun Griffons outshines them completely. Chickens are the only go to choice of our heavy cavalry, which is a shame, because of a lot of us likes horse knights more, and painted them back when they were better.

    And I am using them a bunch. And Im not a bad player. And I do know how to use mobile units (My second army is SE). And I still find KO to be underperforming points wise. Please accept that.

    Im not arguing for massive changes or 50% cav lists. I would just like to bring my horse knights sometimes (And sometimes a pegasus or a dragon), without knowing that I in doing so, I handicap the effectiveness of my list.
  • Bloody MIsfire wrote:

    2 out of 19 VTC players used Knightly Orders. That you can podium with them is irrelevant. What is relevant is that it is an underused unit and that Sun Griffons outshines them completely. Chickens are the only go to choice of our heavy cavalry, which is a shame, because of a lot of us likes horse knights more, and painted them back when they were better.

    And I am using them a bunch. And Im not a bad player. And I do know how to use mobile units (My second army is SE). And I still find KO to be underperforming points wise. Please accept that.

    Im not arguing for massive changes or 50% cav lists. I would just like to bring my horse knights sometimes (And sometimes a pegasus or a dragon), without knowing that I in doing so, I handicap the effectiveness of my list.
    Interesting, let's see... I'm too ill to do any work today anyway :P

    Underused by what metric?
    Serious comment: I've been pondering how to algorithmically define over- and under-used units, in order to turn tournament list data into something quantitively useful, but I think it is a hard problem. If you have some precise suggestions, I would love to hear them :)


    Why is underused a problem? Are you claiming that underused is a proxy for bad?
    I would say that these things are correlated, but not 1-1 (I refer you to my exploits with blunderbusses or boarboyz as a great counterexample).
    Understanding the scatter in this relationship is very important.
    In this particular case, the fact that armies can rely on these units is I think, fairly strong evidence of a situation that is not so trivially described.


    KotSG are better in my view too, unless you take characters on horses. So the difference is primarily contextual.
    But, as I say, part of this betterness of KotSG is vestigial core tax. Which is smaller to non-existent amongst the other EoS core choices.


    But my main point is that the handicap from taking empire core knights is not a big one. It will be far smaller than the skill gap between the players in the vast majority of the games you play.
    T9a will never reach a point where there is no skill in list-building, or where which units are better is not contextual, or where there is absolutely no-units that people don't see as slightly behind the curve. But the amount by which such things are behind the curve is soooo small these days.
    Being supportive & giving useful criticism aren't mutually exclusive.
    Are you supportive of the project? Do your posts reflect that?

    List repository and links HERE
    Basic beginners tactics HERE
  • I don't have time for a long discussion. My impression that KO are underused comes from reading lists with this in mind for a long time, as well as a few quantitative elements such as the last ETC sum up made by fthunder. More data would be welcome, but I do not have it.

    I believe underused is a problem. Horse knights have been a part of the soul of our army since the 90'ies. It does not feel right when they sit on the shelf so often. Also, I really hate the chicken models and would like to field effective cavalry on horses, that can do stuff without a ton of characters and synergies. You know, like they could in the last version of our beloved game. It gets worse if you want lance and shield on your models.

    I appreciate your main point. And the pegasus and the dragon can also do wonders in the hands of a skilled player. Yet nobody use them competitively. I have written several places that EoS is in a very good spot right now. That is not a reason why we should not fix the last few issues. KO is one of them.
  • Yea the two attack knightly orders was really cool because you actually don't want to put too many chars in there. Super unit that could almost compete with kotsg.
    and I still believe; Light infantry should fight and shoot in 3 ranks, FREE command groups for EoS units. Imperial Guards should have weaponmaster and both parent and support, and that halbardiers should wear heavy armor. Brace for impact should be changed to, or there should be an extra order: " Have at THEM!" The unit gain battle focus.
    For Sunna and the Emperor!!
  • @The Changing Constant
    I like everything with the sole exception of splitting charge reactions for the support units. Maybe it could work as light infantry ignore S&S penalty but.. the option to so both is very good to have.
    But as many others say its too many changes. I will see it as a catalogue of ideas.
    and I still believe; Light infantry should fight and shoot in 3 ranks, FREE command groups for EoS units. Imperial Guards should have weaponmaster and both parent and support, and that halbardiers should wear heavy armor. Brace for impact should be changed to, or there should be an extra order: " Have at THEM!" The unit gain battle focus.
    For Sunna and the Emperor!!