How to grow 9th Age - Thoughts of a 20+ years competitive gamer

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  • I wouldnt agree that there is no money to be made from t9a customers. Ive spent loads more on the hobby than when i played whfb, plus when i go in a store and i play a gw game they need to stock "karadronsealordsigmarinetroggoth73" or there is nothing relevant to my collection needs and i leave empty handed. Now with my t9a armies, i look through the board games, all fantasy tabletop games minis, the dnd minis etc to see if there is anything cool to add to any of my forces, they dont need to specifically stock anything to have a good chance of me impulse buying something.
    Take a look at my painted army so far. Feel free to share a pic of yours!

    Pics of my ever expanding warriors army

    WastelandWarrior Painting League 2018

    WastelandWarrior Painting League 2019
  • What would be awesome would be that mutiple foundry associated together, to release on package for each army equivalent to the quickstarter or almost.

    Create a kind of business hub, who manage to get some box with price fixed, a common package with the same graphical charter and propose a nice T9A cardboard display stand to shop.

    Into the box itself, we could even imagine, model from different foundry.

    I know.. Its utopian.. but cant we dream about it ^^...
    cas-p.net / graphic & web designer.
    SE - VS - O&G - EoS / 9th age player.
  • mograine wrote:

    Perhaps work out some sort of system where you pay a small fee to play t9a on their tables? or something else that allows you to play t9a and generate revenue for the shop.
    In Germany a lot of night clubs have something called "Mindestverzehr". It's quite easy really: You pay X € when entering, but get coupons for the same amount. So pay for the gaming table if you don't buy anyhting, but let it be free, if the (T9A) player actually buys something in the shop.

    Tool Support Battle Scribe

    Community Engagement


    My blog with battle reports and painting gallery: bleaklegion.wordpress.com/
  • Couple Points.

    I'm lucky that my local store owner is pretty new and post dates the "Fall" . She is happy to let us play and I make sure to let her know we buy our paints and other hobby supplies there as well as from any of her miniatures lines that we fancy (like the dnd ones). She does not stock a ton of GW models or books though anyway.

    Also, there is a group about an hour from me that plays 8th. I'm in their FB group. They are growing if not thriving. I have been trying to figure out why they don't get pulled into our 9th scene, which is doing dandy. It helps they meet at a brewery, but I can tell they are constantly getting new players to their group (either brand new or returning). A couple of them play 9th as well and I stay in Contact to try and cross pollinate...

    i played with them on their game day a couple months ago (was 9th verse my friend). And it was eye opening just watching how much fun they had with the obscure rules. Pouring over books and scheming about combos or items from things like storm of magic. Talking character names. We have cooked out so much randomness and tricky flavor rules (drunk giants!) to get balance (which I LOVE as a tournament player).. ...but we have lost a lot of casual type fun IMHO. None of those people care they have not memorized every weird rule their opponent throws at them. I feel 9th is really missing out on this player base of people who want an immersive fantasy world to play in.... Now maybe its just time we need to back fill this stuff, but things I see still needed are:

    1. Unique campaigns with named characters, weapons, and special rules.
    2. Siege Rules
    3. Supplements like Storm of Magic.. ways to add models and units to everyone army
    4. Unified background that explains who hates who and why
    5. Stories within that background for people to auger in on and think about as they build and paint their armies.
    6. Some guidance on alliances between our factions.

    To my those are the reasons (and I'm sure there are more) I see an 8th group thriving in the midst of decently active 9th scene
    Keeper of the Zoo
    Images of Ma Stuff
    My Warriors of Ind/Sagarikadesha Painting blog

    In Northern CA? Give me a buzz or visit our FB Group: Norcal 9th Age

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Frumious ().

  • Frumious wrote:

    Couple Points.

    I'm lucky that my local store owner is pretty new and post dates the "Fall" . She is happy to let us play and I make sure to let her know we buy are paints and other hobby supplies there as well as from any of her miniatures lines (like the dnd ones). She does not stock a ton of GW models or books though anyway.

    Also, there is a group about an hour from me that plays 8th. I'm in thier FB group. They are growing if not thriving. It helps they meet at a brewery, but I can tell they are constantly getting new players to their group (either brand new or returning). A couple of them play 9th as well and I stay in Contact to try and cross polinate...

    i played on their game day a couple months ago (was 9th verse my friend). And it was eye opening just watching how much fun they had with the obscure rules. Pouring over books and scheming about combos or items from things like storm of magic. Talking character names. We have cooked out so much randomness and tricky flavor rules to get balance (which I LOVE as a tournament player).. We have lost a lot of fun IMHO. None of those people care they have not memorized every weird rule their opponent throws at them. I feel 9th is really missing out on this player base of people who want an immersive fantasy world to play in.... Now maybe its just time we need to back fill this stuff, but things I see still needed are:
    I would be interested in specific examples of what they like.
    My experience is that every such example that is pointed at as one person's feature, is another person's bug.
    People want t9a/RT to simultaneously square, triangle, and icosagon the circle, whilst vehemently attacking it if there are any corners.

    ID blog
    Dan ventures into the lands of smoke and fire

    Basic beginners tactics
    No 'tactics for beginners' thread?
  • DanT wrote:

    Frumious wrote:

    Couple Points.

    I'm lucky that my local store owner is pretty new and post dates the "Fall" . She is happy to let us play and I make sure to let her know we buy are paints and other hobby supplies there as well as from any of her miniatures lines (like the dnd ones). She does not stock a ton of GW models or books though anyway.

    Also, there is a group about an hour from me that plays 8th. I'm in thier FB group. They are growing if not thriving. It helps they meet at a brewery, but I can tell they are constantly getting new players to their group (either brand new or returning). A couple of them play 9th as well and I stay in Contact to try and cross polinate...

    i played on their game day a couple months ago (was 9th verse my friend). And it was eye opening just watching how much fun they had with the obscure rules. Pouring over books and scheming about combos or items from things like storm of magic. Talking character names. We have cooked out so much randomness and tricky flavor rules to get balance (which I LOVE as a tournament player).. We have lost a lot of fun IMHO. None of those people care they have not memorized every weird rule their opponent throws at them. I feel 9th is really missing out on this player base of people who want an immersive fantasy world to play in.... Now maybe its just time we need to back fill this stuff, but things I see still needed are:
    I would be interested in specific examples of what they like.My experience is that every such example that is pointed at as one person's feature, is another person's bug.
    one guy was excited about using his painted Teutegn Guard unit with the rules from storm of magic instead of the generic empire equivalent which he had been doing. He posted about it, some people gave him a hard time, and off they went. He might have wanted to us a wolf priest too...

    I'm not say altering our core rules in anyway... Just having supplements that people can choose, or discuss,or complain about... We have made some great strides with the Auxiliary books, and I think those efforts are really great.
    Keeper of the Zoo
    Images of Ma Stuff
    My Warriors of Ind/Sagarikadesha Painting blog

    In Northern CA? Give me a buzz or visit our FB Group: Norcal 9th Age
  • Frumious wrote:

    Couple Points.

    I'm lucky that my local store owner is pretty new and post dates the "Fall" . She is happy to let us play and I make sure to let her know we buy our paints and other hobby supplies there as well as from any of her miniatures lines that we fancy (like the dnd ones). She does not stock a ton of GW models or books though anyway.

    Also, there is a group about an hour from me that plays 8th. I'm in their FB group. They are growing if not thriving. I have been trying to figure out why they don't get pulled into our 9th scene, which is doing dandy. It helps they meet at a brewery, but I can tell they are constantly getting new players to their group (either brand new or returning). A couple of them play 9th as well and I stay in Contact to try and cross pollinate...

    i played with them on their game day a couple months ago (was 9th verse my friend). And it was eye opening just watching how much fun they had with the obscure rules. Pouring over books and scheming about combos or items from things like storm of magic. Talking character names. We have cooked out so much randomness and tricky flavor rules (drunk giants!) to get balance (which I LOVE as a tournament player).. ...but we have lost a lot of casual type fun IMHO. None of those people care they have not memorized every weird rule their opponent throws at them. I feel 9th is really missing out on this player base of people who want an immersive fantasy world to play in.... Now maybe its just time we need to back fill this stuff, but things I see still needed are:

    1. Unique campaigns with named characters, weapons, and special rules.
    2. Siege Rules
    3. Supplements like Storm of Magic.. ways to add models and units to everyone army
    4. Unified background that explains who hates who and why
    5. Stories within that background for people to auger in on and think about as they build and paint their armies.
    6. Some guidance on alliances between our factions.

    To my those are the reasons (and I'm sure there are more) I see an 8th group thriving in the midst of decently active 9th scene
    I completely agree, as I started warhammer under 8th edition and indeed had enormous fun. We have evolved to a much more balanced game, but we definitely need more fun to spice it up for those casual players that do not mind in the least if they win or lose. It is about the epic feeling of playing legendary battles where lots of fun fluffy stuff happens. Storylines, fluffy rules, extra item combo's, large campaigns such as Lustria conquest. Fan made fiction.

    This should not only be top-down, after all, the volunteers are doing a great job in their free time. We do not have paid staff whose purpose is to entertain us on a daily basis. I will definitely try to create these sort of things.

    You remeber that spell you could turn someone in a toad? I once made an unkillable vampire lord a toad and had one of my best gaming experiences ever! That face of the enemy was simply amazing.
    Follow the adventures of Lord Drakon on his ferocious dragon Luna at: XIII Legion Dragonblog

    The post was edited 2 times, last by Lord Drakon ().

  • Theres tons more "fun" in the game for me now than in 8th ed as a warriors player. I can use more than three book entries in games (without serioisly hamstringing myself) for example, in 8th about 70% of the book was unusable garbage. Magic is much more fun for me too, you can actually plan a phase by picking spells and lores that work with your list, rather than rolling spells, not getting what you wanted and just limping through magic phases with no real aim, or worse, rolling up the right spells and getting a bad winds of magic roll every turn etc.

    Fun is obviously very subjective, but i find the ability to influence more aspects of the game directly much more fun than having massive variance in game control in one dice roll every turn eg. Animosity (playing my old OnG army was a nightmare.....) eye of gods (kill bloodthirster in challenge, roll bad and turn into a spawn...) 2 dice a bluff spell, doible 6, caster and whole unit die under pie plate of doom.... i could go on.

    Point being, i feel a lot more like a general commanding my army, than a passenger in ninth age
    Take a look at my painted army so far. Feel free to share a pic of yours!

    Pics of my ever expanding warriors army

    WastelandWarrior Painting League 2018

    WastelandWarrior Painting League 2019
  • Unuseable garbage is very relative. We used most of our books in 8th and if everyone does it, it works. I don't understand this philisophy many people have here. "If it is not powerful, it can't be fun". Sometimes you lose. Gane is still fun.

    Turning randomness down is a good thing, but there's a million ways to be fun and not random. The ninth age designers way overreacted from "this is too random" to "let's eliminate all of it with no replacement". You could have animosity or eye of the gods with little randomness.
    “The touch of a sword handle is the deadliest poison known to man. It settles in, deeper than the bone, instantaneously. It is a deep curse that can never be lifted and will last you the rest of your days.”
    – Ryo-ten-Ryam
  • WastelandWarrior wrote:

    Theres tons more "fun" in the game for me now than in 8th ed as a warriors player. I can use more than three book entries in games (without serioisly hamstringing myself) for example, in 8th about 70% of the book was unusable garbage. Magic is much more fun for me too, you can actually plan a phase by picking spells and lores that work with your list, rather than rolling spells, not getting what you wanted and just limping through magic phases with no real aim, or worse, rolling up the right spells and getting a bad winds of magic roll every turn etc.

    Fun is obviously very subjective, but i find the ability to influence more aspects of the game directly much more fun than having massive variance in game control in one dice roll every turn eg. Animosity (playing my old OnG army was a nightmare.....) eye of gods (kill bloodthirster in challenge, roll bad and turn into a spawn...) 2 dice a bluff spell, doible 6, caster and whole unit die under pie plate of doom.... i could go on.

    Point being, i feel a lot more like a general commanding my army, than a passenger in ninth age
    Massive thanks for taking the time to post this.
    People often don't believe me when I try to say that there are many players who have this view.
    People want t9a/RT to simultaneously square, triangle, and icosagon the circle, whilst vehemently attacking it if there are any corners.

    ID blog
    Dan ventures into the lands of smoke and fire

    Basic beginners tactics
    No 'tactics for beginners' thread?
  • Just for fun: three alternate mechanics for animosity with more tactics:

    Voluntary: the orc player has a resource, perhaps increased by units like idols, which represent orc excitement. It can be spent to buff units in close combat, but spending too much makes the unit ignore orders.

    Time- dependent: orcs get frustrated and bored out of combat. If they pass X turns not in melee, they will try to attack each other instead.

    Enemy triggered: once per game, the enemy can choose an orc unit not in combat. That unit refuses orders for one turn.
    “The touch of a sword handle is the deadliest poison known to man. It settles in, deeper than the bone, instantaneously. It is a deep curse that can never be lifted and will last you the rest of your days.”
    – Ryo-ten-Ryam
  • Eldan wrote:

    Unuseable garbage is very relative. We used most of our books in 8th and if everyone does it, it works.
    Maybe in your neck of the words.
    Personally, I don't see a unit being a huge handicap, or being unlikely to achieve much on the table, as being fun.

    There were whole swathes of units I never saw (talking about club play, not tournaments, where the situation was even worse) despite playing at quite a few different clubs over the course of 8th.
    The empire book was particularly horrendous: there were a handful of units that were top tier (probably too good), and 2/3+ of the book was almost pointless being put on the table. I tried repeatedly, and the outcome is not something I would describe as fun.


    I mean, if you want to do this, just don't write army lists. Put the models on the table that you each want to use and don't worry about points. I have played games like this in the past, and they can be fun, but I don't want them to make up the majority of games that I play.


    Turning randomness down is a good thing, but there's a million ways to be fun and not random. The ninth age designers way overreacted from "this is too random" to "let's eliminate all of it with no replacement". You could have animosity or eye of the gods with little randomness.
    Yes, this is a very interesting discussion.

    I actually think the LABs do a fair job of this (damnation forsworn and the maw are some of my favourite examples).
    Would you agree? Or do you think the LABs still fail at this?

    Eldan wrote:

    Just for fun: three alternate mechanics for animosity with more tactics:
    Interesting ideas...


    Voluntary: the orc player has a resource, perhaps increased by units like idols, which represent orc excitement. It can be spent to buff units in close combat, but spending too much makes the unit ignore orders.
    I like this idea the most out of your ideas. I dno how compatible it is with t9a background though, and there are already a lot of complaints about complexity and book keeping.

    A tweaked version might have some legs though.

    Time- dependent: orcs get frustrated and bored out of combat. If they pass X turns not in melee, they will try to attack each other instead.
    This will not make for fun games. It will compound bad luck and encourage the opponent to not play.


    Enemy triggered: once per game, the enemy can choose an orc unit not in combat. That unit refuses orders for one turn.
    This would be horrible for orc players. Haha, your orc unit was about to do something cool, and now it can't. lol.
    People want t9a/RT to simultaneously square, triangle, and icosagon the circle, whilst vehemently attacking it if there are any corners.

    ID blog
    Dan ventures into the lands of smoke and fire

    Basic beginners tactics
    No 'tactics for beginners' thread?

    The post was edited 1 time, last by DanT ().

  • Eldan wrote:

    The ninth age designers way overreacted from "this is too random" to "let's eliminate all of it with no replacement". You could have animosity or eye of the gods with little randomness.
    This is simply false information - with respect. What about the insane possible damage output of a Feral Orc Warlord - of which a fair part is random due to the awesome mechanics of Battlefocus? What about the insane possible damage output of Wrecking teams? 2D6 S6 AP4 auto hits on impact? How about a Dragon Seeker with an insane possible damage output, optionally munching through half an Ogre army? Or an Vengeance Seeker, with possible 9 attacks at Agi10 S5? These are all just from the AB's I play.

    9th Age did an incredible job at introducing extremes and maintaining randomess with breaking the mold.
    Booooooaaaaaarsssss .... Chaaaaaaaaaaaaaarge !!!
  • Pellegrim wrote:

    Eldan wrote:

    The ninth age designers way overreacted from "this is too random" to "let's eliminate all of it with no replacement". You could have animosity or eye of the gods with little randomness.
    This is simply false information - with respect. What about the insane possible damage output of a Feral Orc Warlord - of which a fair part is random due to the awesome mechanics of Battlefocus? What about the insane possible damage output of Wrecking teams? 2D6 S6 AP4 auto hits on impact? How about a Dragon Seeker with an insane possible damage output, optionally munching through half an Ogre army? Or an Vengeance Seeker, with possible 9 attacks at Agi10 S5? These are all just from the AB's I play.
    9th Age did an incredible job at introducing extremes and maintaining randomess with breaking the mold.
    I don't see how high numbers have anything to do with what I said?
    “The touch of a sword handle is the deadliest poison known to man. It settles in, deeper than the bone, instantaneously. It is a deep curse that can never be lifted and will last you the rest of your days.”
    – Ryo-ten-Ryam
  • DanT wrote:

    Eldan wrote:




    Enemy triggered: once per game, the enemy can choose an orc unit not in combat. That unit refuses orders for one turn.
    This would be horrible for orc players. Haha, your orc unit was about to do something cool, and now it can't. lol.

    [/quote]It's an obstacle to play around and you see it coming. How is that different from "your unit was about to charge the enemy, but now you can't because there are three cavalrymen in the way and now you're facing the wrong way". It's a weakness to balance around
    “The touch of a sword handle is the deadliest poison known to man. It settles in, deeper than the bone, instantaneously. It is a deep curse that can never be lifted and will last you the rest of your days.”
    – Ryo-ten-Ryam
  • Eldan wrote:

    Unuseable garbage is very relative. We used most of our books in 8th and if everyone does it, it works. I don't understand this philisophy many people have here. "If it is not powerful, it can't be fun". Sometimes you lose. Gane is still fun.

    Turning randomness down is a good thing, but there's a million ways to be fun and not random. The ninth age designers way overreacted from "this is too random" to "let's eliminate all of it with no replacement". You could have animosity or eye of the gods with little randomness.
    You have never played the game, your take on what could be improved is not relevant. Sorry for being harsh but I read your posts often and have a strong feeling we aren't on the same page at all, so no point mollifying you.

    DanT wrote:

    Massive thanks for taking the time to post this.
    People often don't believe me when I try to say that there are many players who have this view.
    No probs, it's true and people who actually play a fair bit seem to feel the same in my experience
    Take a look at my painted army so far. Feel free to share a pic of yours!

    Pics of my ever expanding warriors army

    WastelandWarrior Painting League 2018

    WastelandWarrior Painting League 2019
  • Eldan wrote:

    Pellegrim wrote:

    Eldan wrote:

    The ninth age designers way overreacted from "this is too random" to "let's eliminate all of it with no replacement". You could have animosity or eye of the gods with little randomness.
    This is simply false information - with respect. What about the insane possible damage output of a Feral Orc Warlord - of which a fair part is random due to the awesome mechanics of Battlefocus? What about the insane possible damage output of Wrecking teams? 2D6 S6 AP4 auto hits on impact? How about a Dragon Seeker with an insane possible damage output, optionally munching through half an Ogre army? Or an Vengeance Seeker, with possible 9 attacks at Agi10 S5? These are all just from the AB's I play.9th Age did an incredible job at introducing extremes and maintaining randomess with breaking the mold.
    I don't see how high numbers have anything to do with what I said?
    I don't see how you drew "high numbers" from my post? I described high randomness builds, which excist today, are implemented in the rules with succes.
    Booooooaaaaaarsssss .... Chaaaaaaaaaaaaaarge !!!
  • Eldan wrote:

    DanT wrote:

    Eldan wrote:


    Enemy triggered: once per game, the enemy can choose an orc unit not in combat. That unit refuses orders for one turn.
    This would be horrible for orc players. Haha, your orc unit was about to do something cool, and now it can't. lol.

    It's an obstacle to play around and you see it coming. How is that different from "your unit was about to charge the enemy, but now you can't because there are three cavalrymen in the way and now you're facing the wrong way". It's a weakness to balance around

    (I don't really understand the 3 cavalrymen and facing the wrong way bit, but let me try to answer anyway...)


    There is no counterplay. There is nothing you can do about it. You can take it into account and win anyway, but that doesn't make it interesting or fun.
    I think the least fun things in the game are things that just say "you can't do that" with no positioning, situationality or counterplay.
    This is why I never used dispel scrolls in club games in legacy... so much yawn.
    The whole point of playing is to get our models to do cool things, so anything that just stops them with no nuance or counterplay seems literally counter to the goal of the game to me.
    People want t9a/RT to simultaneously square, triangle, and icosagon the circle, whilst vehemently attacking it if there are any corners.

    ID blog
    Dan ventures into the lands of smoke and fire

    Basic beginners tactics
    No 'tactics for beginners' thread?
  • First of all, guys I see that same unfriendly behaviour again (everywhere on the forum), please change this. If there is one thing that scares away casual players, it's this way of communicating. Try to dialogue instead of discussing and if not agreeing, agree to disagree.

    I THINK I SEE A SOLUTION

    I agree T9A 2.0 is the best ruleset to have ever been produced and I am happily and patiently waiting for the LAB's to follow. T9A direction was wise and good, first bring the core in place, then expand. In bringing the core in place I think we lost quite some players, as it is less buzzing on the forum as it used to be. So, as all already have agreed, the time is now to focus on attracting new blood, casual players, or just players that found learning all the changes time and again to much work.

    I do think the mass of wargamers, as Frumious narrated, are casual players looking for fun and playing with their toy miniatures. For personal experience, I had a thriving wargaming community of 10-15 players all playing 8th edition, then afterwards they tried T9A for some time but found it too competetive, unfriendly culture on the forum (lots of negativity) and changing too fast to learn.


    Furmious wrote:

    it was eye opening just watching how much fun they had with the obscure rules. Pouring over books and scheming about combos or items from things like storm of magic. Talking character names. We have cooked out so much randomness and tricky flavor rules (drunk giants!) to get balance (which I LOVE as a tournament player).. ...but we have lost a lot of casual type fun IMHO. None of those people care they have not memorized every weird rule their opponent throws at them. I feel 9th is really missing out on this player base of people who want an immersive fantasy world to play in.

    I agree that if we want to grow faster (grow or die) we need the masses of casual wargamers who do not care if they win or lose, do not want to waste lots of time reading tactics and youtube tutorials, but just shovel their plastic miniatures on the table and have a cool time. I have always been different from my wargaming group as I perceived it as something more, something thrillingly exciting because of the tactical part (inherently focus within T9A).

    Unfortunately, all those extra's are based on rules: special characters, siege rules, unique campaigns, alliances and more. This is not going to happen now as the rules are set, and we wanted simplicity instead of complexitiy. However, this needs not to be while we can still all have it.

    Launch a T9A campaign!
    Like Storm of Chaos, like Lustrian Conquest, like all those big events in the old Warhammer world, design a campaign on only a part of the existing (and hidden) fluff. Give every race several special characters, lots of magic items, tricky flavor rules, document of around 4-5 pages, no artwork needed, just cool rules and options. Think about alliances and other ways that ALL T9A players can say: hi mate, fancy a Winter is Coming game tonight? The whole community uses the base rules we worked so hard far, but they get a lot more fluffy options and games when playing a campaign game. You do not need to change our game, while still providing everything the casual gamer loves. I also found that it are these campaigns that create a lot of ideas on personal fluff, army themes and generally attract interest.

    @DarkSky @Giladis @Calisson @Blonde Beer @Pellegrim Thoughts?

    Also if the board likes this idea, I am happy to volunteer and become part of this project team.
    Follow the adventures of Lord Drakon on his ferocious dragon Luna at: XIII Legion Dragonblog

    The post was edited 6 times, last by Lord Drakon ().

  • I agree about a worldwide campaign being an awesome idea.

    I dno what project leaders would say, but my guess would be "ok, who's gonna do it?"

    Maybe if some of the community started putting some ideas together, you could convince the project to take it on and recruit you guys as the people to do it?
    People want t9a/RT to simultaneously square, triangle, and icosagon the circle, whilst vehemently attacking it if there are any corners.

    ID blog
    Dan ventures into the lands of smoke and fire

    Basic beginners tactics
    No 'tactics for beginners' thread?