New HbE Book!! Some modification to make our army great Again !

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    • I think I can see where the problem is coming from. You judge units incorrectly.

      1) Lancers ok = no way
      2) Spears weak = on the contrary, they are atm solid core unit and all they need is one another point down / HA +1 point to be perfect.

      Also...

      1) the proposed armour of canreig tower does not help against either pyromancy, or S3 goblin bows.
      2) arrows...no, we do not need third type. As has been stated a) it is stepping into SE category b) no matter how you spin the issue, it pushes the HbE into the gunline scenario. Something HbE should be able to do, borderline, but not as a dominant playstyle.
      The new arrows will either be too weak, or will be everywhere (on core archers). Band aid and unnecessary.
      3) time...well..actually no. There is very finite amount of time that can be spent on the changes. Even with regard to the FAB. New units and mounts will steal much, much more time than fine tuning.

      As I have always said, KISS is the way to go (Keep It Simple Stupid).
    • Evaenarion wrote:

      I think I can see where the problem is coming from. You judge units incorrectly.

      1) Lancers ok = no way
      2) Spears weak = on the contrary, they are atm solid core unit and all they need is one another point down / HA +1 point to be perfect.

      Also...

      1) the proposed armour of canreig tower does not help against either pyromancy, or S3 goblin bows.
      2) arrows...no, we do not need third type. As has been stated a) it is stepping into SE category b) no matter how you spin the issue, it pushes the HbE into the gunline scenario. Something HbE should be able to do, borderline, but not as a dominant playstyle.
      The new arrows will either be too weak, or will be everywhere (on core archers). Band aid and unnecessary.
      3) time...well..actually no. There is very finite amount of time that can be spent on the changes. Even with regard to the FAB. New units and mounts will steal much, much more time than fine tuning.

      As I have always said, KISS is the way to go (Keep It Simple Stupid).
      1.1 Ok i thought they were fine. Can you explain me why they are not ?
      2.1 Hum i don't know if everyone will agree with you on this but ok. But an heavy armor option should be at the negotiation table. I will add it to the v3.
      1.2 Totally agree on this, the armour doesn't protect against fire and goblin shoots, but vs Catapultes and arquebus. They are still a problem in my opinion.
      2.2 I realy don't agree with you on this. Arrows are more suited to fit our army than SE. We are according to the lore way more qualified on smithing skill than SE and in that way we are at least as legitime at having arrows than them.
      2.2Bis We are already not allowed to play gunline scenario because of the Arrow category restriction.
      3. So why does the Chaos have now access to a new portal mechanic ? This his way more complicated to balance than a simple new cavalry.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Edhelnaur ().

    • Edhelnaur wrote:

      2.2 I realy don't agree with you on this. Arrows are more suited to fit our army than SE. We are according to the lore way more qualified on smithing skill than SE and in that way we are at least as legitime at having arrows than them.
      Considering there is already very high overlap between the three elven books wouldn't it be counterproductive to expand the HE book in the direction that would occupy niches where are already designated to other elven groups.


      Edhelnaur wrote:

      3. So why does the Chaos have now access to a new portal mechanic ? This his way more complicated to balance than a simple new cavalry.
      Because it was a replacement for something they lost which was the most powerful war machine in the game.

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    • Fnarrr wrote:

      Don't forget invisible unit upgrades are generally a design no-no.
      Is this true these days?
      I am not so sure.
      I never voted against anything on this basis, and I don't remember seeing it in the guidelines.
      Being supportive & giving useful criticism aren't mutually exclusive.
      Are you supportive of the project? Do your posts reflect that?

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    • Giladis wrote:

      Edhelnaur wrote:

      2.2 I realy don't agree with you on this. Arrows are more suited to fit our army than SE. We are according to the lore way more qualified on smithing skill than SE and in that way we are at least as legitime at having arrows than them.
      Considering there is already very high overlap between the three elven books wouldn't it be counterproductive to expand the HE book in the direction that would occupy niches where are already designated to other elven groups.
      So what do you think about a racial bow so ? it's not an arrow and this can fix the unbalanced CA

      Edhelnaur wrote:

      3. So why does the Chaos have now access to a new portal mechanic ? This his way more complicated to balance than a simple new cavalry.
      Because it was a replacement for something they lost which was the most powerful war machine in the game.
      Ok i didn't thought about the Apocalypse canon. But it make me sad that no new unit will be added. I don't realy see arms adding the lion riders unit and i hope the LAB will at least consider it
    • I believe it was a drive in 2.0, but much like yourself I'd have trouble finding it in the archives now, especially as my access is limited.

      There were certainly some design decisions in individual books relating to this.

      I would imagine WDG and DL with their various "marks" were an exception to this, would be disappointing if the head honchos decided to drop it as a guiding principle though.
    • Edhelnaur wrote:

      But it make me sad that no new unit will be added.
      Adding new stuff is usually exciting if for no other reason than because it is new.

      Unfortunately there are many layers in making the decision to add a new unit. These are just some of the things to consider when making that choice:

      1. How many army list entries the AB has
      2. How complex is the AB
      3. Is there a niche the new entry could fill
      4. Should the army even have access to such a niche
      5. Are there models in existence that can reasonably represent the concept (if not the exact execution)
      6. If there are compatible models they should not be limited to just one manufacturer
      7. How much role overlap the new entry would have with existing ones
      8. Does the entry makes sense within the context of the 9th Age setting
      9. ...

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    • I thought a bit about the three different elves.

      I´m not sure whats the official thoughts about the three are right now but me personally see them something like this:

      Dread Elves: Very strong offence, bringing the pain no matter the cost.

      Sylvan Elves: Shooting and mobility. Some extra punch and sustainability from Trees and stuff like that.

      Highborn Elves: Well.... after strong offence no mater the cost and mobility and shooting are taken I think defense is left.
      An easy way to bring that in would be Heavy Armor for Spearmen what you allready have. I also think that shields for CAs would be nice. Giving them parry (even if they don´t need it often with Def. 4) and more important a 5+ arm vs. Pyromancy.

      Not sure if the HbE have a declining population like in Warhammer Fantasy but I was allways wondering why they don´t use proper armor to give their units the needed protection if they have so few people. Thinking about the static job of the CA (especially if it´s true that we lose the Quick to Fire Honor) even a Heavy Armor and Shield would be okay [not talking about balancing and pointcosts here. I´m bad at these things I fear.]
    • Darock wrote:

      I thought a bit about the three different elves.

      I´m not sure whats the official thoughts about the three are right now but me personally see them something like this:

      Dread Elves: Very strong offence, bringing the pain no matter the cost.

      Sylvan Elves: Shooting and mobility. Some extra punch and sustainability from Trees and stuff like that.

      Highborn Elves: Well.... after strong offence no mater the cost and mobility and shooting are taken I think defense is left.
      An easy way to bring that in would be Heavy Armor for Spearmen what you allready have. I also think that shields for CAs would be nice. Giving them parry (even if they don´t need it often with Def. 4) and more important a 5+ arm vs. Pyromancy.

      Not sure if the HbE have a declining population like in Warhammer Fantasy but I was allways wondering why they don´t use proper armor to give their units the needed protection if they have so few people. Thinking about the static job of the CA (especially if it´s true that we lose the Quick to Fire Honor) even a Heavy Armor and Shield would be okay [not talking about balancing and pointcosts here. I´m bad at these things I fear.]
      Going to the defense for our army is one of the option that make sense. But it will involve a lot of tweak to make it efficient in the contexte of an entire army with T3... If we go that way to be differentieted from the the other elves, we need to have access to Plate armour or a racial unique armor that give us a better defense than our cousin DE.

      Overall if we go that way
      HL, prince, commander and SM, (maybe LG too ?) should have access to plate armour.
      CS and SG should have access to heavy armour

      In that context the propostion of the new hereditary make a lot of sense too in my mind. What do you think about it in that context ?

      I don't think that the problem of our citizen archers is the defense... they are not suposed to enter at close and they already has 4 in defense. The problem of our CA is clearly the offense so i am more in favor of a new racial bow for them.
    • Edhelnaur wrote:

      Evaenarion wrote:

      I think I can see where the problem is coming from. You judge units incorrectly.

      1) Lancers ok = no way
      2) Spears weak = on the contrary, they are atm solid core unit and all they need is one another point down / HA +1 point to be perfect.

      Also...

      1) the proposed armour of canreig tower does not help against either pyromancy, or S3 goblin bows.
      2) arrows...no, we do not need third type. As has been stated a) it is stepping into SE category b) no matter how you spin the issue, it pushes the HbE into the gunline scenario. Something HbE should be able to do, borderline, but not as a dominant playstyle.
      The new arrows will either be too weak, or will be everywhere (on core archers). Band aid and unnecessary.
      3) time...well..actually no. There is very finite amount of time that can be spent on the changes. Even with regard to the FAB. New units and mounts will steal much, much more time than fine tuning.

      As I have always said, KISS is the way to go (Keep It Simple Stupid).
      1.1 Ok i thought they were fine. Can you explain me why they are not ?2.1 Hum i don't know if everyone will agree with you on this but ok. But an heavy armor option should be at the negotiation table. I will add it to the v3.
      1.2 Totally agree on this, the armour doesn't protect against fire and goblin shoots, but vs Catapultes and arquebus. They are still a problem in my opinion.
      2.2 I realy don't agree with you on this. Arrows are more suited to fit our army than SE. We are according to the lore way more qualified on smithing skill than SE and in that way we are at least as legitime at having arrows than them.
      2.2Bis We are already not allowed to play gunline scenario because of the Arrow category restriction.
      3. So why does the Chaos have now access to a new portal mechanic ? This his way more complicated to balance than a simple new cavalry.
      1.1 price and lack of any special rule or anything that will either make them more resilient or more killy. No real good combat synergies with characters.
      2.1 they will when they try them in 20 man + muso units.
      2.2 all of this is the old fluff and I suggest you do not keep to it or use it to justify anything within the army. Technically, it still should be correct, but, game wise, SE are the archers. Simple.
      3. See other responses

      Units in our armybook do not need reinventing. We do not need new special rules, complicated mechanics and armoury items. We just need price fine adjustments. That is not to say I wouldn´t mind changes to some rules. But it is not necessary.

      Where this inventing process is necessary, are the honours and magical items. Only some of them can (or should) be fixed by points.
    • General question to those talking about defence as a differentiation to other elves:
      If HBE improve their defence, will they e.g. lose lightning reflexes? Anything else?
      Or will the whole book just rise in individual model eliteness?
      Does this latter not just make you "better versions of the other elves"?
      Being supportive & giving useful criticism aren't mutually exclusive.
      Are you supportive of the project? Do your posts reflect that?

      List repository and links HERE
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    • This is in my opinion the most important question.

      Should the lightning reflexes stay as they are, or should the "superior reflexes" of the elfes be reflected in a more anti hit defense mechanic.
      Or should this more defence be just in addition, making the models a lot more expensive.


      Propably all elfes should have the same approach. Would be strange if HbE have (as example) an inbuilt distracting, or a lot stronger armor than other elfes?
    • DanT wrote:

      General question to those talking about defence as a differentiation to other elves:
      If HBE improve their defence, will they e.g. lose lightning reflexes? Anything else?
      Or will the whole book just rise in individual model eliteness?
      Does this latter not just make you "better versions of the other elves"?
      If the points are properly increased/adjusted it will just make our army more elitist (fewer models). But not necerily better than the other elves. just different, In my oppinion. But this direction is not bad i think
    • berti wrote:

      This is in my opinion the most important question.

      Should the lightning reflexes stay as they are, or should the "superior reflexes" of the elfes be reflected in a more anti hit defense mechanic.
      Or should this more defence be just in addition, making the models a lot more expensive.


      Propably all elfes should have the same approach. Would be strange if HbE have (as example) an inbuilt distracting, or a lot stronger armor than other elfes?
      I think that Lightning reflexes is good as it is. And i also think that it is not a problem for us to have different armor than others elves.
      SE has light armor, high mobility and special arrows
      DE have heavy armor, and hit realy strong, they have unique crossbows
      HBE could have plate armor

      It make sens after all
    • Edhelnaur wrote:

      If the points are properly increased/adjusted it will just make our army more elitist (fewer models).
      Sure, as long as HBE players are happier with putting fewer models than now on the table...



      But not necerily better than the other elves. just different,
      I meant better per model.




      In my oppinion. But this direction is not bad i think
      *shrug* I have no strong opinion. I would be fascinated to see the reaction from the playerbase as a whole if the project itself did this.
      Being supportive & giving useful criticism aren't mutually exclusive.
      Are you supportive of the project? Do your posts reflect that?

      List repository and links HERE
      Basic beginners tactics HERE
    • DanT wrote:

      Edhelnaur wrote:

      If the points are properly increased/adjusted it will just make our army more elitist (fewer models).
      Sure, as long as HBE players are happier with putting fewer models than now on the table...
      Increasing the armor by 1 at some units will not drasticly change the number of models. If we consider the fact that we need a boost, without the changes a lot of our unit need a decrease in points. If we add the +1 armor it will just balanced Naturaly both aspect and we will maybe increase the point of some units by 1 point (for exemple the HA for spears).


      But not necerily better than the other elves. just different,
      I meant better per model.
      Yeah sorry it make sens



      In my oppinion. But this direction is not bad i think
      *shrug* I have no strong opinion. I would be fascinated to see the reaction from the playerbase as a whole if the project itself did this.
      I am interested as well :)

    • Edhelnaur wrote:

      DanT wrote:

      Edhelnaur wrote:

      If the points are properly increased/adjusted it will just make our army more elitist (fewer models).
      Sure, as long as HBE players are happier with putting fewer models than now on the table...
      Increasing the armor by 1 at some units will not drasticly change the number of models. If we consider the fact that we need a boost, without the changes a lot of our unit need a decrease in points. If we add the +1 armor it will just balanced Naturaly both aspect and we will maybe increase the point of some units by 1 point (for exemple the HA for spears).


      But this is the rub isn't it...
      What you are really saying is that you want your troops to be better for basically the same price...

      But, if the project continues on its current path, data will be the primary arbiter of points costs.
      Maybe the data will show that HBE need substantial price drops, and maybe they won't. This is not something for me (or you) to decide, although we can of course guess as to the answer.
      Points are not something that is ultimately decided by the designers of the LABs either.

      So I would advise not worrying too much about points costs in your book, and instead focus on delivering the design and feel that you would want to see.
      Just be aware that, in general, the more extra stuff you add to models, the more they will go up in price.
      And, in my experience, the players of an army would not always assign the same points cost to their units as their opponents would ;) :D
      Being supportive & giving useful criticism aren't mutually exclusive.
      Are you supportive of the project? Do your posts reflect that?

      List repository and links HERE
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    • 4 in defense does not protect more than 5 against the armies of small creatures populated with an offensive of 2.
      On the other hand, it protects against more competent units.

      I think we should not think in terms of armor but especially in synergy between units.
      That's what makes list building interesting. This is a point I find quite weak in our book especially between Honors and Units. Even though there has been a lot of progress on this point.

      What tools do we have today?
      Are they sufficiently used?
      Yes No
      If not why?
      Is it enough or should they be modified?
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