New HbE Book!! Some modification to make our army great Again !

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    • DanT wrote:

      General question to those talking about defence as a differentiation to other elves:
      If HBE improve their defence, will they e.g. lose lightning reflexes? Anything else?
      Or will the whole book just rise in individual model eliteness?
      Does this latter not just make you "better versions of the other elves"?
      Some time ago I actually proposed trading LR for:

      Stoicism (or any other cool name): model parts with stoicism gain parry, +1 Armor and +1 Aegis.

      The reasoning for that being that HBE were just short to the top5 for armor, were also high in special saves and high in avoiding damage traits and this rule quite neatly encompasses being JoAT in defense, while also reducing their face blending offensive power as a tradeoff.
      My gallery: Adam painting stuff (HbE, VC and lots of terrain)
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    • DanT wrote:

      General question to those talking about defence as a differentiation to other elves:
      If HBE improve their defence, will they e.g. lose lightning reflexes? Anything else?
      Or will the whole book just rise in individual model eliteness?
      Does this latter not just make you "better versions of the other elves"?
      I would imagine this to be more equipment-related than rooted into the naked elf profile.

      And in some cases, it would mean reducing offensive capacity; in others it would mean increased eliteness.

      Example 1:

      Core spears losing the additional FieR for upgrading to heavy armour - can argue all day whether that slightly better or slightly worse, but its more or less in the equivalent trade-off area; so cost stays around the same. Trading offence for defence.

      Example 2:

      Redesigning dragonforged armour as plate - change to Rynas, increased viability of characters on fancy mounts. Results in cost increases.


      I don't think these changes need to be particularly drastic; elves should still be fragile compared to the average game - HbE can just be the "least-fragile" of their bretheren.
      Hristo Nikolov
    • Adam wrote:

      DanT wrote:

      General question to those talking about defence as a differentiation to other elves:
      If HBE improve their defence, will they e.g. lose lightning reflexes? Anything else?
      Or will the whole book just rise in individual model eliteness?
      Does this latter not just make you "better versions of the other elves"?
      Some time ago I actually proposed trading LR for:
      Stoicism (or any other cool name): model parts with stoicism gain parry, +1 Armor and +1 Aegis.

      The reasoning for that being that HBE were just short to the top5 for armor, were also high in special saves and high in avoiding damage traits and this rule quite neatly encompasses being JoAT in defense, while also reducing their face blending offensive power as a tradeoff.
      My personal view, is that LR should be on all elves (across all three books), or, mostly removed from all three.

      I don't have a strong personal preference for which is done.
      If I was supreme leader of the world, then I would try to do some sort of extensive community survey to find out how important LR is considered to be to the identity of elves, and whether players would prefer elves to be defined differently.

      An example that I have pondered is, instead of LR, something like (intended to be illustrative, not necessarily complete or perfect in its detailed manifestation):
      DE: +4OS
      SE: +2OS/+2DS
      HBE: +4DS

      This also dovetails nicely with the idea that SE sit in between, and are sort of the most "typical" or "original" elves.
      Which does not match legacy fluff... but might just be more coherent with t9a fluff ;)

      It is also mechanically further from legacy, serves to tie together and differentiate the elves simultaneously, and plays with the idea that characteristics do not need to be capped at 10.
      Of course, the details need to be thought through carefully, and it is ultimately a reduction in eliteness so might ultimately result in some points reductions.
      But, by playing with the stats like this, one also opens lots of interesting avenues to use OS/DS in other ways for elves.
      Spitballing... things like:
      +1 AP if OS is 3 higher than opponents? (As army wide DE rule?)
      enemy gets -1 AP if their OS is 3 less than the elven DS? (As army wide HBE rule?)

      These ideas might be great, and might be terrible.
      More likely, there are implementations of these concepts that are great, and implementations that are terrible.



      Fnarrr wrote:

      Redesigning dragonforged armour as plate - change to Rynas, increased viability of characters on fancy mounts. Results in cost increases.

      Nearly everyone (maybe not SE :P ) has an argument why their faction should get plate armour...
      KoE will go nuts if HBE get plate armoured cavalry!
      Being supportive & giving useful criticism aren't mutually exclusive.
      Are you supportive of the project? Do your posts reflect that?

      List repository and links HERE
      Basic beginners tactics HERE

      The post was edited 1 time, last by DanT ().

    • Grand frere wrote:

      4 in defense does not protect more than 5 against the armies of small creatures populated with an offensive of 2.
      On the other hand, it protects against more competent units.

      I think we should not think in terms of armor but especially in synergy between units.
      That's what makes list building interesting. This is a point I find quite weak in our book especially between Honors and Units. Even though there has been a lot of progress on this point.

      1. What tools do we have today?
      2. Are they sufficiently used?
      Yes No
      3. If not why?
      4. Is it enough or should they be modified?
      1. Tools we have :
      We have great mobility, we can hit pretty hard if we use the right unit at the right moment (because we have a great diversity of units).
      We have access to great magic but at a great cost. (I often invest at least 15% of my army points in magic).
      Thanks to QG we have access to good medium shoot at long range

      Tools we don't have :
      We have actualy no tools against artillery, Heavy shoots, or heavy blast and this clearly the thing responsible of our low position in term of forces and weakness in the ranking of all the armies.

      2. No tools at all against this problem (simply shooting artilery with our own Balista is clearly not a suficient solution). Others army have great Armor/Thougness or embush or portails or hard target or a lot of other solution to not instant lose against that.

      4. In my oppinion we need tools. And that could be done like this :
      Access of Embush
      or Increasing resilience by armor
      or increasing resilience by magic
      or increasing resilience by Honor
      or increasing resilience by racial rule

      And i still think their is a big problem with our Core CA
    • There is a tool that existed that allowed some flexibility while leaving the choice to do it or not.
      It was to give elite unit champions the opportunity to own one or more magic items.
      And there we would offer the opportunity for example to a champion of sword master to buy rm.
      This was very symbolic of our race and these small objects gave us many services.

      I find that the book lacks a little something, I'm not sure that we should revolutionize everything.
      With this addition, we bring something unique to the Hbe, new choices in the design of army lists.
      Of course it must be well balanced to not have abuse.
      My galery
      Lord of the Hobby: Quickstarter Highborn Elfes
    • DanT wrote:

      Adam wrote:

      DanT wrote:

      General question to those talking about defence as a differentiation to other elves:
      If HBE improve their defence, will they e.g. lose lightning reflexes? Anything else?
      Or will the whole book just rise in individual model eliteness?
      Does this latter not just make you "better versions of the other elves"?
      Some time ago I actually proposed trading LR for:Stoicism (or any other cool name): model parts with stoicism gain parry, +1 Armor and +1 Aegis.

      The reasoning for that being that HBE were just short to the top5 for armor, were also high in special saves and high in avoiding damage traits and this rule quite neatly encompasses being JoAT in defense, while also reducing their face blending offensive power as a tradeoff.
      My personal view, is that LR should be on all elves (across all three books), or, mostly removed from all three.
      I don't have a strong personal preference for which is done.
      If I was supreme leader of the world, then I would try to do some sort of extensive community survey to find out how important LR is considered to be to the identity of elves, and whether players would prefer elves to be defined differently.

      An example that I have pondered is, instead of LR, something like (intended to be illustrative, not necessarily complete or perfect in its detailed manifestation):
      DE: +4OS
      SE: +2OS/+2DS
      HBE: +4DS

      This also dovetails nicely with the idea that SE sit in between, and are sort of the most "typical" or "original" elves.
      Which does not match legacy fluff... but might just be more coherent with t9a fluff ;)

      It is also mechanically further from legacy, serves to tie together and differentiate the elves simultaneously, and plays with the idea that characteristics do not need to be capped at 10.
      Of course, the details need to be thought through carefully, and it is ultimately a reduction in eliteness so might ultimately result in some points reductions.
      But, by playing with the stats like this, one also opens lots of interesting avenues to use OS/DS in other ways for elves.
      Spitballing... things like:
      +1 AP if OS is 3 higher than opponents? (As army wide DE rule?)
      enemy gets -1 AP if their OS is 3 less than the elven DS? (As army wide HBE rule?)

      This ideas might be great, and might be terrible.
      More likely, their are implementations of these concepts that are great, and implementations that are terrible.

      I like the idea of this concept but i don't think the main problem of the hbe is at close. We actually want to be at close the faster we can because we are destroyed at distance against a lot of armies. And tweaking OS and DS does nothing about the shoots, which is, in my oppinion the biggest issue.

      Fnarrr wrote:

      Redesigning dragonforged armour as plate - change to Rynas, increased viability of characters on fancy mounts. Results in cost increases.
      Nearly everyone (maybe not SE :P ) has an argument why their faction should get plate armour...
      KoE will go nuts if HBE get plate armoured cavalry!


      I still doesn't understand why KoE couldn't have access to hit. Both KoE and HbE elites should have access to hit.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Edhelnaur ().

    • DanT wrote:

      Nearly everyone (maybe not SE ) has an argument why their faction should get plate armour...
      KoE will go nuts if HBE get plate armoured cavalry!
      It was the worse of 2 examples :P and Ryma Knights are hardly a unit that needs fixes.

      You get what I mean though - make already standard equipment available. LA -> HA for spears, maybe HA -> DA for Sword Masters...etc.

      It depends on the background, of course. I would imagine upgrading to DA needs a lot more justification than the spearmen change.
      Hristo Nikolov
    • Edhelnaur wrote:

      DanT wrote:

      [dan stuff]

      I like the idea of this concept but i don't think the main problem of the hbe is at close. We actually want to be at close the faster we can because we are destroyed at distance against a lot of armies. And tweaking OS and DS does nothing about the shoots, which is, in my oppinion the biggest issue.


      Fair enough. If not vs ranged, what do you thinK HBE/general elven weaknesses should be?







      Nearly everyone (maybe not SE :P ) has an argument why their faction should get plate armour...KoE will go nuts if HBE get plate armoured cavalry!
      I still doesn't understand why the elite cavalerie couldn't have access to hit. Both KoE and HbE elites should have access to hit.

      Armour creep, and specifically 1+ armour creep, risks creating very unhealthy game environments.

      Of course, the real answer is that it is entirely subjective and some people will prefer the game with this prevalence of 1+ saves and some people won't.


      Being supportive & giving useful criticism aren't mutually exclusive.
      Are you supportive of the project? Do your posts reflect that?

      List repository and links HERE
      Basic beginners tactics HERE
    • Fnarrr wrote:

      DanT wrote:

      Nearly everyone (maybe not SE ) has an argument why their faction should get plate armour...
      KoE will go nuts if HBE get plate armoured cavalry!
      It was the worse of 2 examples :P and Ryma Knights are hardly a unit that needs fixes.
      You get what I mean though - make already standard equipment available. LA -> HA for spears, maybe HA -> DA for Sword Masters...etc.

      It depends on the background, of course. I would imagine upgrading to DA needs a lot more justification than the spearmen change.
      Why simply not keep the DA as it is (act like a realy strong and unique armor only available to rymas and characters) and add plate armour to SM ?? it will make a lot more sens than giving them DA in my opinion.

      HA for spears and SG should be an option, not directly included in the base of the unit.

      DanT wrote:

      Edhelnaur wrote:

      DanT wrote:

      [dan stuff]

      I like the idea of this concept but i don't think the main problem of the hbe is at close. We actually want to be at close the faster we can because we are destroyed at distance against a lot of armies. And tweaking OS and DS does nothing about the shoots, which is, in my oppinion the biggest issue.


      Fair enough. If not vs ranged, what do you thinK HBE/general elven weaknesses should be?

      Hum, at close, some units with S3 can barely handle some basics units with T4 which cost less than our core.
      I would say that our core is way too weak. Investing 25% of our point in units that will not be efficient but expensive enough to be outnumbered is a big weakness.


      Nearly everyone (maybe not SE :P ) has an argument why their faction should get plate armour...KoE will go nuts if HBE get plate armoured cavalry!
      I still doesn't understand why the elite cavalerie couldn't have access to hit. Both KoE and HbE elites should have access to hit.

      Armour creep, and specifically 1+ armour creep, risks creating very unhealthy game environments.

      Of course, the real answer is that it is entirely subjective and some people will prefer the game with this prevalence of 1+ saves and some people won't.

      I can undestand that. But I am not a fan of giving Plate armour to our ryma, they are very good atm and they doesn't need to change in my opinion.


    • Fnarrr wrote:

      Edhelnaur wrote:

      no tools against artillery,
      Your entire premise is flawed, because this part is just not true.
      Longbows in general are a fantastic tool against artillery, and we have QG and skirmishers.

      Magic - pyro and div as well - also counters WM quite well.
      Long range artillerie (my bad not specifying it || ). I was thinking of catapults and canon put 60'' or 72'' away from you, that you have strictly nothing about.
    • Edhelnaur wrote:


      DanT wrote:

      Edhelnaur wrote:

      DanT wrote:

      [dan stuff]

      I like the idea of this concept but i don't think the main problem of the hbe is at close. We actually want to be at close the faster we can because we are destroyed at distance against a lot of armies. And tweaking OS and DS does nothing about the shoots, which is, in my oppinion the biggest issue.


      Fair enough. If not vs ranged, what do you thinK HBE/general elven weaknesses should be?

      Hum, at close, some units with S3 can barely handle some basics units with T4 which cost less than our core.
      I would say that our core is way too weak. Investing 25% of our point in units that will not be efficient but expensive enough to be outnumbered is a big weakness.




      Two comments (we should have co-ordinated and done the rainbow in the correct order! ):

      (A) This is about DESIGN weaknesses, not power weaknesses.
      (B) Are you saying you want your core to be overcosted?




      Being supportive & giving useful criticism aren't mutually exclusive.
      Are you supportive of the project? Do your posts reflect that?

      List repository and links HERE
      Basic beginners tactics HERE
    • Because a coherent army book that makes sense is important.

      Having plate availability but choosing not to give it to your men is immersion-breaking; especially in an elite, well equipped army.

      The background behind DA can quite easily justify its inclusion / exclusion to basically anything which has HA available at the moment.
      LA on Sea Guard can be justified easily; they have a lot of equipment and need to not be encumbered; plus they operate on the coast and/or boats, so HA is a bad idea.
      Hristo Nikolov
    • Fnarrr wrote:

      Because a coherent army book that makes sense is important.


      I totally agree on that and i still dont find incoherent the fact of giving plate Armour access to SM. But i will find very incoherent of giving them DA for the reasons i have given before. The empire have access to it and not all the unit have it. It should be the same with us.

      Having plate availability but choosing not to give it to your men is immersion-breaking; especially in an elite, well equipped army.


      Citizen can't afford to pay to such extensive armor, even if they are elves, they are still core and it will be unjustified for them to wear plate armour

      The background behind DA can quite easily justify its inclusion / exclusion to basically anything which has HA available at the moment.
      LA on Sea Guard can be justified easily; they have a lot of equipment and need to not be encumbered; plus they operate on the coast and/or boats, so HA is a bad idea.


      I can agree on that in term of lore.
    • EoS give plate to their most elite units. They also don't really have much with heavy armour - you are either a basic solider with light armour, or if someone has bothered to equip you (elite infantry, knight of any sort) they give you plate.

      Giving any of the elite infantry plate, while not giving it to Silver Helms for example, is what makes it weird.
      Hristo Nikolov
    • Fnarrr wrote:

      EoS give plate to their most elite units. They also don't really have much with heavy armour - you are either a basic solider with light armour, or if someone has bothered to equip you (elite infantry, knight of any sort) they give you plate.

      Giving any of the elite infantry plate, while not giving it to Silver Helms for example, is what makes it weird.
      wait ! i don't want to give plate to every Elite, just SM. They are the elite of the elite ! And if you don't like the fact that this is named Plate, we could simply call this Armor of Canreig tower (give 3 armor)
    • Edhelnaur wrote:

      They are the elite of the elite !
      But are they really? Though it is tempting to fall into that trap due to them being best close combat specialist in the army I couldn't just off hand state which unit is elite of the elite in the Arandai society.

      You have Swordmasters that are blade specialists, warrior poets.
      Lion Guard and Queen's Guard are classical and feudal bodyguards attached to highest strata of society.
      Flame Wardens are a "religious" holy military order.
      Knights of Ryma are ancient nobility dedicated to war.

      Now these are just broad concepts that are compliant to the themes people attach to the miniatures they usually use to represent these unit entries rather then revelations of details of new background but it shouldn't make any difference for this discussion.


      So when you look onto the list above how can you say with certainty that Swordmasters are elite of the elite among the HE?


      Also if you had not noticed two HE units do have access to HE equivalent of Plate Armour. Knights of Ryma with Dragon Armour where mundane resilience of plate is replaced with arcane protection and Lion Guard with Lion Fur where added protection of plate is compensated and even surpassed via another layer of equipment on top of heavy armour.

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    • Fnarrr wrote:

      Don't forget invisible unit upgrades are generally a design no-no.
      There's no such thing as an invisible upgrade. ("Which unit has X" "The red one").
      Just because I'm on the Legal Team doesn't mean I know anything about rules or background in development, and if/when I do, I won't be posting about it. All opinions and speculation are my own - treat them as such.

      Legal

      Playtester

      Chariot Command HQ

    • Giladis wrote:

      Edhelnaur wrote:

      They are the elite of the elite !
      But are they really? Though it is tempting to fall into that trap due to them being best close combat specialist in the army I couldn't just off hand state which unit is elite of the elite in the Arandai society.
      You have Swordmasters that are blade specialists, warrior poets.
      Lion Guard and Queen's Guard are classical and feudal bodyguards attached to highest strata of society.
      Flame Wardens are a "religious" holy military order.
      Knights of Ryma are ancient nobility dedicated to war.

      Now these are just broad concepts that are compliant to the themes people attach to the miniatures they usually use to represent these unit entries rather then revelations of details of new background but it shouldn't make any difference for this discussion.


      So when you look onto the list above how can you say with certainty that Swordmasters are elite of the elite among the HE?


      Also if you had not noticed two HE units do have access to HE equivalent of Plate Armour. Knights of Ryma with Dragon Armour where mundane resilience of plate is replaced with arcane protection and Lion Guard with Lion Fur where added protection of plate is compensated and even surpassed via another layer of equipment on top of heavy armour.
      Ok they are maybe not the supreme elite of the elite but they are part of the 3 special elite unit infantry.
      What are they ?
      The religious order is already protected by the gods itself wich provide the best protection of the 3 -> Aegis 4+
      The bodyguard of the King have already something better than a plate armor due to the resistance of a lion Pelt
      The Best SwordsMan of the entire army has 6 in offence, 6 in defense, have so much agility they can use a Longsword without any pain, but they are absolutely defenseless against a goblin with a bow...

      Talking about balance right now. We struggle against Shootings, especially SM, what will we do about this unit ? I am open to the idea of giving the AD because of the fact that this game is not warh... anymore and the lore could differ. Would you vote for that so ?
    • Personally I would keep them as vulnerable as they currently are to avoid overlap with the other two elite infantry units.

      From a purely game design point of view going from 4 to 3 elite infantry units would benefit the book but then we would probably be skinned alive by HE players.

      That said I would not like to lose their separate identities.

      Advisory Board

      Background Team

      Art Team Coordinator

      Team Croatia ETC 2019 Captain ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ HEROES AND VILLEINS OF THE 9TH AGE