Infernal Dwarves and Taphria

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    • Infernal Dwarves and Taphria

      Hello,

      Writing here just to make sure that the people working on the current ID fluff are aware of the tremendous work we did in detailing possible relations between Infernal Dwarves, the Kegiz Gavem dwarves, the Taphrian Vermin, and the putative new faction of the Mukumbusu Giant Apes.

      There are already epic stories depicting massive naval battles between ID and DH between the two continents, and the ages-long fight for the holy shore South of the Sea of Thirst.
      Not mentioning the outstanding art, including those that got published in the Ninth Scroll already.

      Links :


      Please note that we have decided not to create a specifically Taphrian ID faction, since Zalaman Tekash is so close from Taphria already, so we rather conceived an extended ID trade network that could serve as the basis for their intervention on the continent.

      Just making sure that not all that crazy work we designed is gonna get lost / erased / forgotten / dismissed.


      Also, regarding ID in Virentia :
      Infernal Dwarves of the Torture Valleys (T9A Moche)


      @Calisson
      @Karak Norn Clansman
      @Niedfaru
      @Emgies
      @WhammeWhamme
      GHAÂAÂAÂARN ! — The Black Goat of the Woods with a Thousand Young
      First T9A player in West Africa
    • Hi @Ghiznuk and @Calisson this is in the hands of the background and art team. I can have all sorts of ideas for how we could incorporate it but whether I can use any of it is really not for me to decide. @Scottish Knight @Niedfaru and @WhammeWhamme are the guys to go to :)

      Product Owner - ID LAB

      Alone you may go faster but together we go further ;)
    • Okay.

      So, a lot of this was frustrating to read, because reiterating the GW "normal dwarves hate chaos dwarves" line in T9A is like nails on chalkboard to me*. BUT, I persevered (and skipped everything that said something like "hated Infernal Dwarves"), and I think this could be adapted to be a good Infernal Dwarf variant army.

      ID are the religious dwarves, the ones with spellcasters. They also already have monstrous mounts (hello griffons). And fire reskins as light pretty well.

      And a few people don't like having their citadel be slavers, so this could be a good way to provide canon support for that.



      * ID are not mutants or tainted by evil magic or traitors to the ancient dwarven lifestyle or anything like that. They can certainly fight other dwarves, but they make no sense to have some kind of ancient abiding enmity for; their philosophy of dwarven supremacy means they have an ideological bias towards diplomacy with other dwarves.

      Background Team

    • Calisson wrote:

      I thought that Homebrew could be an inspiration for all the ID LAB team, not only art.

      Windelov wrote:

      Hi @Ghiznuk and @Calisson this is in the hands of the background and art team. I can have all sorts of ideas for how we could incorporate it but whether I can use any of it is really not for me to decide. @Scottish Knight @Niedfaru and @WhammeWhamme are the guys to go to :)

      Ghiznuk wrote:

      Yeah, that's why I tagged them.

      I don't know why Calisson added you. ;)
      Because @Windelov and I are facilitating/helping the creation of the ID book by the ID LAB Team. :)
      But the creation of the background, stories and fluff is in the hands of BGT, not the ID LAB Team, that's why Windelov redirected it to the 2 lead writers of the ID background and head of background.

      From mechanical point of view we could use it as inspiration, but I think it's up to @Scottish Knight @WhammeWhamme @Niedfaru and @Gomio to be able to filter what we can/can't use as inspiration.

      At least I personally really like all the fluff written by the forum users!

      Assistant Head of Army Design

      ID Legendary Army Book Team

      "Restructuring boi" - DanT


      "Great things in business are never done by one person.
      They're done by a team of people."

      – Steve Jobs
    • The lead writers can consider the degree to which homebrew work can serve as inspiration. I agree with Whamme's comments, I think they make sense.

      However, it's worth bearing in mind that homebrew work is removed from the considerations and scrutiny of the work of the BGT, so we cannot guarantee we use things without significant changes. In which case, it might be better that it remains as a standalone work, rather than have us tinkering.

      Executive Board

      Head of Background Team


      Team Scotland ETC 2019 Captain

      "I think of the Abyss as being a pretty good catch all term."
    • I don't think we are against significant changes.
      Significant changes are way better than just plain ignoring / erasing / dismissal of our work.

      So any change would be welcome, since we are sure it will be for the Greater Good.

      @WhammeWhamme

      We never considered Gavem as an ID variant, since it is shown on the world map as a DH fortress.
      So right from the beginning we considered it as a variant of DH.

      Also, if you look at the army list, it makes much more sense. We just copy-pasted every unit in the DH book and gave it a « Light Paladin » / « Rock Crafter » twist.

      Kegiz Gavem is by the way at a lower technological level than standard DH, so really hard to fit as an ID variant.

      Also, we see it as a culture which fights against sin and worships pain. Because it's based on Orthodox christianity.
      That would be difficult to adapt as an ID variant.

      What we could easily though, scrap would be the eternal war between Gavem and Zalaman Tekash.

      That would allow us to still keep the whole thing.


      By the way, nothing is shown on the map about dwarves from the Copper mountains, and this culture could maybe serve as the basis for an ID culture in Taphria ??
      Sounds like enough trade to be done there, and enough slaves to be taken all around.

      Oh, and what about the Wasteland dwarves ? :)
      Khuralshki Dwarves (T9A Udmurt)
      GHAÂAÂAÂARN ! — The Black Goat of the Woods with a Thousand Young
      First T9A player in West Africa
    • WhammeWhamme wrote:

      So, a lot of this was frustrating to read, because reiterating the GW "normal dwarves hate chaos dwarves" line in T9A is like nails on chalkboard to me*. BUT, I persevered (and skipped everything that said something like "hated Infernal Dwarves")
      Please note it was not "Normal Dwarves hate Chaos Dwarves eternally".
      The itent was more "Kegiz Gavem Dwarves, who happen to be the neighbours of ID, have fought bitterly over a piece of land which is coveted by both" (the ~T9A Yemen). So no, not eternal fight, and no, no racial hatred.
      Sorry for the chalkboard, it was not the interpretation we had.

      WhammeWhamme wrote:

      I think this could be adapted to be a good Infernal Dwarf variant army.

      ID are the religious dwarves, the ones with spellcasters.

      * ID are not mutants or tainted by evil magic or traitors to the ancient dwarven lifestyle or anything like that. They can certainly fight other dwarves, but they make no sense to have some kind of ancient abiding enmity for; their philosophy of dwarven supremacy means they have an ideological bias towards diplomacy with other dwarves.
      This is very interesting.
      The starting point for Kegiz Gavem is that these Dwarves should be culturally quite distinct from the other Holds, located in Vetia.
      As we wanted to use the cultural inspiration from RL Ethiopia, we made Kegiz Gavem Dwarves to be very religious.
      We had understood that DH and ID are the same species. This is why we conceived Kegiz Gavem to have some traits from both.
      DH and ID being the same race, it means that DH use of runes rather than spells is cultural, not racial, so no problem to have a Homebrew with different culture.
      However, as Kegiz Gavem is clearly labeled as DH not ID, we had no choice other than to make it a DH variant, not an ID one.

      Now, your idea to adapt the Kegiz Gavem Homebrew as ID variant can be pursued as well.
      One issue is that Kegiz Gavem are supposed to be DH, not ID so we would need to locate them elsewhere.
      The advantage is that our Homebrew uses spells, not runes.
      However our Homebrew uses no tame beasts, no chimeric mutant, no devil, but rather mechanical constructions.

      What could be conceived could be to create a second Homebrew, this time related to ID,
      which would be located in the T9A~Yemen,
      which would be politically a dependance of DH Kegiz Gavem,
      which would use as far as possible the cultural developments of the Kegiz Gavem Homebrew,
      but would use ID AB as a basis from which to adapt the Kegiz Gavem Homebrew AB, with priests, no slaves nor chimeric monsters and a bit distinct technology (balloons).

      Then we would have, in a progressive evolution:
      1. Vetian DH (runes, not spell - Dwarves and technology only)
      2. Kegiz Gavem DH (spells, not runes - Dwarves and technology only, no animals nor half-animals)
      3. T9A~Yemen ID (like Kegiz Gavem except derived from ID AB) (no slaves, some animals such as lions)
      4. Regular ID (slaves, monsters)
      These pair of Homebrew would then illustrate fully the racial proximity between DH and ID, who would become almost the same in the T9A~Horn-of-Africa region.

      Social Media Team

      UN Coordinator, aka UNSG

      - druchii.net contribution: The 9th Age - Dread Elves
    • I don't think it's worth to design a special Yemenite ID faction, that land is so close to the Blasted Plain, it seems unlikely that those guys would have developed a different culture, especially since they can use steam engines to ease connections.

      Also, it would mean we'd have two ID factions really like next to each other, which adds nothing to our world geopolitics.

      Much better to create an ID faction in Taphria somewhere else, far from every other dwarf faction, to justify that they develop their own culture.
      Hence Copper Mountain dwarves.
      GHAÂAÂAÂARN ! — The Black Goat of the Woods with a Thousand Young
      First T9A player in West Africa
    • Calisson wrote:

      WhammeWhamme wrote:

      So, a lot of this was frustrating to read, because reiterating the GW "normal dwarves hate chaos dwarves" line in T9A is like nails on chalkboard to me*. BUT, I persevered (and skipped everything that said something like "hated Infernal Dwarves")
      Please note it was not "Normal Dwarves hate Chaos Dwarves eternally".The itent was more "Kegiz Gavem Dwarves, who happen to be the neighbours of ID, have fought bitterly over a piece of land which is coveted by both" (the ~T9A Yemen). So no, not eternal fight, and no, no racial hatred.
      Sorry for the chalkboard, it was not the interpretation we had.

      We may however assume that long-standing rivalry with Infernal Dwarves since at least the 7th Age (of Thunder) have been driving Gavemite modern technology for centuries at this point. By capturing Infernal Dwarf equipment in war and reverse-engineering those pieces which are not corrupted by the unholy (and maybe even exorcising such gear to allow study and copy?)

      In battle Garuvebiz was a force unto his own, for his vision became filled by the Light on high as he slayed its enemies and cleansed the promised shores from both Infernal Dwarves and their slave soldiers. Yet the sheer success of this famous champion planted arrogance in his heart, and for this sin did the Heavenly Light cast him aside into captivity and punishment at the hands of Garuvebiz' hateful foes.

      Behold its splendour and the brilliant rays reflected in its carved gemstones, and know what true kingly power in Taphria looks like. And obviously those thrice-accursed heathens, Daemon-worshippers and idolaters known as Infernal Dwarves, with their ridiculously tall headgear, are just making up for having stood inferior and unworthy in the Ras' looming presence.

      You can see why I'm skeptical about that claim, yes?

      Plus why would the ID be trying to take (specifically) not-Yemen despite heavy opposition from the KG Dwarves? Almost every other inch of Taphria is inhabited by non-dwarves. (Again, it's not that ID would never fight DH, it's that fighting a long, bitter, drawn-out war against other members of the Chosen People is... they would probably try to use diplomacy. Likely gunboat diplomacy - a lot of ID-on-ID conflict is about getting an upper hand for negotiations - but still diplomacy.).

      Calisson wrote:

      WhammeWhamme wrote:

      I think this could be adapted to be a good Infernal Dwarf variant army.

      ID are the religious dwarves, the ones with spellcasters.

      * ID are not mutants or tainted by evil magic or traitors to the ancient dwarven lifestyle or anything like that. They can certainly fight other dwarves, but they make no sense to have some kind of ancient abiding enmity for; their philosophy of dwarven supremacy means they have an ideological bias towards diplomacy with other dwarves.
      This is very interesting.The starting point for Kegiz Gavem is that these Dwarves should be culturally quite distinct from the other Holds, located in Vetia.
      As we wanted to use the cultural inspiration from RL Ethiopia, we made Kegiz Gavem Dwarves to be very religious.
      We had understood that DH and ID are the same species. This is why we conceived Kegiz Gavem to have some traits from both.
      DH and ID being the same race, it means that DH use of runes rather than spells is cultural, not racial, so no problem to have a Homebrew with different culture.
      However, as Kegiz Gavem is clearly labeled as DH not ID, we had no choice other than to make it a DH variant, not an ID one.

      Now, your idea to adapt the Kegiz Gavem Homebrew as ID variant can be pursued as well.
      One issue is that Kegiz Gavem are supposed to be DH, not ID so we would need to locate them elsewhere.
      The advantage is that our Homebrew uses spells, not runes.
      However our Homebrew uses no tame beasts, no chimeric mutant, no devil, but rather mechanical constructions.

      What could be conceived could be to create a second Homebrew, this time related to ID,
      which would be located in the T9A~Yemen,
      which would be politically a dependance of DH Kegiz Gavem,
      which would use as far as possible the cultural developments of the Kegiz Gavem Homebrew,
      but would use ID AB as a basis from which to adapt the Kegiz Gavem Homebrew AB, with priests, no slaves nor chimeric monsters and a bit distinct technology (balloons).

      Then we would have, in a progressive evolution:
      1. Vetian DH (runes, not spell - Dwarves and technology only)
      2. Kegiz Gavem DH (spells, not runes - Dwarves and technology only, no animals nor half-animals)
      3. T9A~Yemen ID (like Kegiz Gavem except derived from ID AB) (no slaves, some animals such as lions)
      4. Regular ID (slaves, monsters)
      These pair of Homebrew would then illustrate fully the racial proximity between DH and ID, who would become almost the same in the T9A~Horn-of-Africa region.

      The labels drawn on the map are explicitly an in-world assumption. It denotes that the person who drew the map believed Kegiz Gavem to be more like the Dwarven Holds than the citadels of the Infernal Dwarves, nothing more.


      Background-wise you can't combine Runes and normal spellcasting, so the Engineering Runes would need to go, as would the justification for the Hold Guardians. (Instead, you'd likely want to use ID WM and probably Kadims...)

      Basically, "Highly religious and have spellcasters" is a significant portion of the difference between DH and ID - you've moved them culturally away from DH and directly towards ID. Ignoring mechanics, I don't see anything about your version of KG that makes them more like DH than ID.


      So yeah. That's my offer: try to adapt the Kegiz Gavem fluff so it can be included in the ID book in places and try to convince the LAB team to make it an official Asklanders-style book.


      Ghiznuk wrote:

      I don't think we are against significant changes.
      Significant changes are way better than just plain ignoring / erasing / dismissal of our work.

      So any change would be welcome, since we are sure it will be for the Greater Good.

      @WhammeWhamme

      We never considered Gavem as an ID variant, since it is shown on the world map as a DH fortress.
      So right from the beginning we considered it as a variant of DH.

      Also, if you look at the army list, it makes much more sense. We just copy-pasted every unit in the DH book and gave it a « Light Paladin » / « Rock Crafter » twist.

      I see that, yes. Bluntly, that's why I'd rather toss those rules rather than the gorgeous art/modelling.

      Kegiz Gavem is by the way at a lower technological level than standard DH, so really hard to fit as an ID variant.

      Ehn. Standard DH is still one of the highest tech level factions in the game. I don't see this as a large problem.

      Also, we see it as a culture which fights against sin and worships pain. Because it's based on Orthodox christianity.
      That would be difficult to adapt as an ID variant.

      I think you misunderstand the Infernal Dwarves. Byzantium, for example, is a significant inspiration. The standard ID are a near-theocracy.
      And they are certainly no friends to the Seven.

      KG specifically strikes me as being a fairly Nezibkeshite faction; stone and engineering are Nezibkesh's domains, and the aspects of the ID that don't mesh with the presented vision are generally Ashuruk (Vassals), Shamut (mounts, Taurukhs) related. Dwarves + technology and lead by magic-wielding priests? Totally a Nezibkesh themed army.

      What we could easily though, scrap would be the eternal war between Gavem and Zalaman Tekash.

      That would allow us to still keep the whole thing.


      By the way, nothing is shown on the map about dwarves from the Copper mountains, and this culture could maybe serve as the basis for an ID culture in Taphria ??
      Sounds like enough trade to be done there, and enough slaves to be taken all around.

      Oh, and what about the Wasteland dwarves ? :)
      Khuralshki Dwarves (T9A Udmurt)

      Those guys (the Khuralshki) DO sound like Dwarven Holds dwarves. (Stubborn, abandoned their old gods, driven by hatred grudges, use runes, avoid using 'normal' magic because it's dangerous).

      Background Team

    • The most important thing I retain from this discussion is that the best way to tell a Dwarf from an Infernal Dwarf is the attitude towards magic.
      Uses runes, refuses magic = DH.
      Uses magic, not runes = ID.

      Everything else is cultural.
      DH being depicted as Vetian, mountain dwellers is an archetype, but many variants exist.
      ID being depicted as Mesopotamian slavers and daemon binders is an archetype, but many variant exist.

      An ID tribe renouncing magic and developing runes becomes DH, even if culturally they still look like ID.
      A DH tribe developing religion and losing the art of runes becomes ID, even if culturally they still look like DH.

      In that case, our Kegiz Gavem dwarves are more religious than magic, therefore should be classified as ID.
      Not much needs to be adapted, just dropping the runes.
      Possibly it could be adapted rulewise to be closer to ID and further from DH.

      Social Media Team

      UN Coordinator, aka UNSG

      - druchii.net contribution: The 9th Age - Dread Elves
    • But do they really use magic ?
      I would rather have them keep the runes and have priests able to cast bound spells, and no wizards.

      Also, do we really need to have them be more this or that ?
      They could just be a very independant dwarf faction and have their own Supplement AB, being a « Dwarf Supplement AB », not necessarily attached to ID or DH.

      I mean, Makhar for example are officially « WotDG supplement », but really, they have not much in common with the WotDG. True, they share half the units, but they don't have access to favours and to the kind of stuff that makes them « X of the Dark Gods » fluffwise.
      And their playstyle is wildly different.

      But ok, I don't see another faction that they could be attached to as a supplement.

      But do Gavemites really need to be attached to either DH or ID ?


      I do agree though that the war over not-Yemen seems a bit far-fetched to me.
      It's just that historically, Ethiopia controlled all the lands West and East of the Red Sea.
      And we designed that story that means that by virtue of very, very, very ancient agreements, Keghiz Gavem has the right to cross the isthmus in Hanaphuk and to this day that agreement is enforced by the « current » local UD rulers.

      That means KG is the only faction to which the sea route from the Middle Sea to the Southern Ocean is accessible. An extremely important advantage.
      So it makes sense for them to ensure that they control that sea.
      But maybe less sense for the ID to want to get that land so badly, agree.

      Also, we designed a sea orc faction to represent the local Somalia pirates. So propably dwarves would be more busy fighting those orcs than bothering about other dwarves, agree.


      Finally, that stuff you say about the map is a bit unfair: ;)

      First, we are given a map that is the only official map of the Ninth Age, so we of course tend to take it « as is ». Though of course, it is glaring how inaccurate is that map when you notice that river Djeliba that flows through Dogoko city isn't shown on it. ;)

      Second, even if the drawer might have been misinformed, there must have been something that made him opt for a DH drawing rather than an ID one.

      Also, apart from the inner perspective, I believe the actual BG team people who drew the map needed a DH citadel in Taphria for the sake of allowing every faction to be represented there. Though, yes, Copper mountains.
      GHAÂAÂAÂARN ! — The Black Goat of the Woods with a Thousand Young
      First T9A player in West Africa
    • Calisson wrote:

      The most important thing I retain from this discussion is that the best way to tell a Dwarf from an Infernal Dwarf is the attitude towards magic.
      Uses runes, refuses magic = DH.
      Uses magic, not runes = ID.

      Everything else is cultural.
      DH being depicted as Vetian, mountain dwellers is an archetype, but many variants exist.
      ID being depicted as Mesopotamian slavers and daemon binders is an archetype, but many variant exist.

      An ID tribe renouncing magic and developing runes becomes DH, even if culturally they still look like ID.
      A DH tribe developing religion and losing the art of runes becomes ID, even if culturally they still look like DH.

      In that case, our Kegiz Gavem dwarves are more religious than magic, therefore should be classified as ID.
      Not much needs to be adapted, just dropping the runes.
      Possibly it could be adapted rulewise to be closer to ID and further from DH.

      It's also "Hold Dwarves tend towards atheism/apatheism*" / "Infernal Dwarves are very religious". On a cultural level, I didn't see anything particularly Hold-Dwarf-y about the portrayed Dwarves of Kegiz Gavem, while their religious zeal is more Infernal. I mean, it's possible I missed something, but from where I'm sitting the disconnect is the erroneous assumption that Infernal Dwarves are daemon worshippers who pact with the dark gods; this is not so.

      * - not putting much effort into worship.

      Mesopotamia vs. European Mountain Dwellers is definitely not the line between DH variant book and ID variant book though. Tsuanduan would probably be an EoS variant book, for example; the cultural inspirations aren't really the basis for that line.

      And on the gripping hand, imo ID *need* something like Kegiz Gavem - a "good guy" variant that doesn't have slaves - more than DH needs a variant with spellcasting.

      Background Team

    • Ghiznuk wrote:

      But do they really use magic ?
      I would rather have them keep the runes and have priests able to cast bound spells, and no wizards.

      Dwarf Rune bound spells are different from normal spells, even (I would say) normal bound spells.


      Also, do we really need to have them be more this or that ?
      They could just be a very independant dwarf faction and have their own Supplement AB, being a « Dwarf Supplement AB », not necessarily attached to ID or DH.

      I mean, Makhar for example are officially « WotDG supplement », but really, they have not much in common with the WotDG. True, they share half the units, but they don't have access to favours and to the kind of stuff that makes them « X of the Dark Gods » fluffwise.
      And their playstyle is wildly different.

      Sure. If the people behind Kegiz Gavem want me to forget about this thread and ignore it while working on the ID LAB, I'd respect that.

      (because srsly, a standalone book? probably means you're coming out after all 16 are done, if ever)

      But I see some cool ideas that I feel could be used to create a really nice ID variant list and I don't see why it would be a DH variant.


      But ok, I don't see another faction that they could be attached to as a supplement.

      But do Gavemites really need to be attached to either DH or ID ?

      Not really, but that does remove the established path for them into canon.


      I do agree though that the war over not-Yemen seems a bit far-fetched to me.
      It's just that historically, Ethiopia controlled all the lands West and East of the Red Sea.
      And we designed that story that means that by virtue of very, very, very ancient agreements, Keghiz Gavem has the right to cross the isthmus in Hanaphuk and to this day that agreement is enforced by the « current » local UD rulers.

      That means KG is the only faction to which the sea route from the Middle Sea to the Southern Ocean is accessible. An extremely important advantage.
      So it makes sense for them to ensure that they control that sea.
      But maybe less sense for the ID to want to get that land so badly, agree.

      Also, we designed a sea orc faction to represent the local Somalia pirates. So propably dwarves would be more busy fighting those orcs than bothering about other dwarves, agree.


      Finally, that stuff you say about the map is a bit unfair: ;)

      First, we are given a map that is the only official map of the Ninth Age, so we of course tend to take it « as is ». Though of course, it is glaring how inaccurate is that map when you notice that river Djeliba that flows through Dogoko city isn't shown on it. ;)

      Second, even if the drawer might have been misinformed, there must have been something that made him opt for a DH drawing rather than an ID one.

      Also, apart from the inner perspective, I believe the actual BG team people who drew the map needed a DH citadel in Taphria for the sake of allowing every faction to be represented there. Though, yes, Copper mountains.

      If you'd prefer that a properly DH-style Hold was present in Kegiz Gavem that is a thing that could be done instead. It would probably require reworking a few details; more runes in the AB, for example, and probably less religion - but the details would be handled when the DH LAB got done, so we'd basically put a pin in things for now.

      But to address specific points:

      - Policy is to not publicly release gods-eye-view fluff. Statements made by people like moiself in the forums can be disavowed (for example, I can make mistakes and say things the BGT as a whole would NOT sign off on despite me thinking they would) and IC narrators can be unreliable. I'm not faulting people for going "ah, a DH symbol, I shall make a DH variant and put it here" - I'm saying that looking at what people have actually created, I think the project could better use it as an ID variant.

      - Yes, there was undoubtedly a reason, both Watsonian and Doylist, for why it was a DH symbol. But "we need DH in Taphria" can be addressed by putting them elsewhere and the in-universe motivations could easily be something like "he knew they were not part of the Infernal Dwarf polity but knew they were Dwarves" or "he's met Kegiz Gavem dwarves and they weren't baby-eating monsters so clearly they can't be Infernal Dwarves" (Infernal Dwarves have a bad reputation. Much of it deserved, ofc)


      And look: If someone wants to make a list of the traits of Kegiz Gavem that make them more DH than ID, I'm totally prepared to consider changing my mind. But they need to be prepared to accept corrections, because srsly there was a *lot* of stuff in that 12 page KG thread that thought ID were something they're not.

      Background Team

    • Sure !

      OK, so they could still be an supplement to ID while not being « Infernal », in the same way that Makhar are supplement to WotDG while notbeing « of the Dark Gods ».

      Agreed, there were a lot of assumptions in our work taken from the old Chaos Dwarves, of course.

      So, you saw what we did, that's already very nice of you to have taken it into account.
      For the rest, do what you must.

      I think we're all more impatient than ever now to see what our new Infernal Dwarves are going to be ;)
      GHAÂAÂAÂARN ! — The Black Goat of the Woods with a Thousand Young
      First T9A player in West Africa
    • Ghiznuk wrote:

      Sure !

      OK, so they could still be an supplement to ID while not being « Infernal », in the same way that Makhar are supplement to WotDG while notbeing « of the Dark Gods ».

      Agreed, there were a lot of assumptions in our work taken from the old Chaos Dwarves, of course.

      So, you saw what we did, that's already very nice of you to have taken it into account.
      For the rest, do what you must.

      I think we're all more impatient than ever now to see what our new Infernal Dwarves are going to be ;)

      "Infernal" Dwarves proper is a strictly geographically limited term; it is as specific a name as "Empire of Sohnstahl" and refers to the dwarves who dwell in the vicinity of where the Inferno wreaked it's havoc. That is, they are "the dwarves of the Inferno". (They are also, broadly speaking, descendants of the arrogant dwarves who created the Inferno).

      T9A's Dwarves are more numerous than just those of Vetia and the Inferno Wastes. There are various enclaves - particularly smaller ones - scattered across the world, often too small to note on a map (the dwarves were once more unified, but that was long ago...). These smaller enclaves can lean in either direction, potentially sharing language, culture and/or technological designs with either of the 'main' DH or ID factions.

      So yes, they would not be "Infernal". Neither would be a ziggurat located three hundred miles away from the Inferno that, through sheer concidence, was exactly like the "main" ID in every fashion.



      Now, bearing in mind that I really care what people think: what do you want? What are the truly important aspects of Kegiz Gavem to you?

      Be specific. Be detailed. Try to not make assumptions. I guarantee only that I will read it and try to make people happy, but I do guarantee that I will read it and try to make people happy.

      Background Team

    • I totally understand that there would be no sense being called « Infernal » if you don't live near the Inferno.


      The core of Kegiz Gavem is that they are a fantasy Christian Orthodox Ethiopian empire.

      Parallel to this, but in connection to it, is that they are a rather original dwarven culture in that they are religious and worship the sun and light (which grants them some magic, manifested or not via runes). Therefore they actively see themselves as pertaining to Order (as in the cosmic « Order vs Chaos » battle). Which means their archetype is the Paladin.
      And as such, they strongly dislike daemons and slavery. Which in itself would justify an enmity towards ID.


      As I said, they could just be a « Dwarf supplement », not necessarily attached to ID or to DH.
      Just like a hypothetical « Qassari army » could just be a « Human supplement » and not necessarily a « EoS » or « KoE » supplement.
      –> Though do what you must in that regard.

      Also, we don't necessarily need them to have an army in the here and now.
      I think most importantly, we want them to be mentioned in the BG, and not erased.
      Just like Tsuandan, Qassar and Volskaya are mentioned in the BG.
      We already had several battle scenes involving Arcalean and Qassari troops (fighting DL) or Volskayan troops (fighting WotDG). It doesn't mean that we want an Arcalean army here and now. Just, it's in the fluff, they are mentioned in the fluff. They play a role in the Great Scheme of things on the narrative scale, even if they are not a playable faction.
      GHAÂAÂAÂARN ! — The Black Goat of the Woods with a Thousand Young
      First T9A player in West Africa

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Ghiznuk ().

    • The philosophy behind all Taphrian Homebrew is to pay respect to the variety of African cultures.
      The most important for us when we started the Gavemites was to combine Ethiopian culture and T9A Dwarves.
      The choice of Ehtiopian culture was because KG is located in the T9A~Ethiopia, and because Ethiopian culture is one of the oldest, most prestigious and respected African culture.
      The choice of DH was only because the map happened to show a DH symbol.

      Since we started the thread, there were many developments which added to the interest, and made the faction arguably the most loved among all the Taphrian factions we developed, earning it an article in The 9th Scroll:
      - fluffwise, it was developed by @Ghiznuk to be a benevolent Dwarven faction inspired by high morals.
      - artwise, @Karak Norn Clansman provided lots of superb drawings which have been donated to T9A.
      - modelwise, @Little Joe created many 3D-printers model parts.
      - rulewise, there are many original ideas to explore individually, such as balloons.

      These are the aspects which would be a real shame to drop.

      Note that we developed Dwarves which live on top of mountains, not below; and have domesticated lions. Adding the strong use of religion, this put them indeed closer to ID than DH.

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