Dread Elf LAB Brainstorm/Ideas thread.

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  • Dread Elf LAB Brainstorm/Ideas thread.

    Since we all go the itch to put forth our ideas and clog up the guidelines thread, I figured we should start a brainstorm/ideas thread.

    So put forth your ideas and lets have some fun!


    I will ask to try to have semi-well constructed posts. ...mostly avoid one liners that balloon the thread to 500pages. ...nobody wants to read that.
    And try to match the ideas to the guidelines as best as possible. There is obviously some wiggle room since we don't have access to backroom internals that forbid this or that because some dwarf complained, etc.... :)



    My idea for armour:

    Light and Heavy armour get Piercing Resist(1). This reduces enemy AP by 1.
    If the armour is enchanted then it loses this upgrade(solves any issue with 1+ save characters).


    This is a super great idea that many of us liked. The only real problem comes with the mandate that raptor knights should be at 2+, as this effectivly makes them a 1+ save.
    I personally don't have a problem with this as the raptors are a lot of points per model. They are slow for cavalry which is a BIG factor. If raptors stay at 2+ they will still sit on the shelf unless the points gets drastically reduced.

    Also - we don't get 4+ save infantry. Not even corsairs. So the army as whole doesn't have very good armour. Enemy AP will still target the Raptor Knights.
    Overall this helps against enemy shooting without exceptionally making enemy shooting feel ineffective like a -1 to hit would do.
    It also helps a little bit in close combat as there is a plethora of AP out there, especially against those weak horde units who got spears and all that jaz.
    And more importantly if FEELS like the elves got elite equipment compared to all those dirty horde type armies that pick their equipment up off the ground.

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Peacemaker ().

  • Next idea:

    Sylvan weapons
    Basically just porting over the Sylvan Elves AP on their weapons. Especially onto a Dread Elf Hand weapon ....called a "Gladius" *wink wink to the Roman theme".
    It makes them feel elite.

    Issues:
    Obviously it increass AP all over the place, especially for core.
    And even in sylvan elves they have a few weapons that don't get it so it's not a blanket increase in AP. Their spears and great weapons for example.

    Note:
    I remember that survey and statement that said LAB would not be using the generic BRB enchantments. Everything would be shifted into the LAB in order to make balanceing things easier.
    This is a Prime example of where this is needed. Because having sylvan blades as well as access to a 45pt Rending banner can quickly become OP.
    Similarly with stuff like the speed banner and cult upgrades.
  • HYDRA

    Preamble
    So I had to take several long hard looks on the Daemon Legions book, as I re-wrote their BattleScribe files. I really liked some of the more creative ideas, like the "Fallen Star" rule of the Blazing Glory. So I thought: Which unit in our book would be the best to receive totally "out of there" rules, and in my mind it has to be the Hydra. The fluff is rich and the "you can't kill it, it grows instead" has never been explored truly.

    Idea #1 – The full on "it only grows idea"
    The basic premise of this idea is, that every time you to a wound you separate one head. But then, two heads grow out of it. So you can't kill it at all. On the other hand, each head has its own brain, so too many heads equals in the Hydra becoming so confused, it will basically collapse on itself, becoming an unmovable thicket of biting heads. So here are my rule ideas:

    More Heads – Whenever the Hydra suffers one or more wounds, the Hydra instead gains +1 Attack for each wound suffered.
    Full Mental Breakdown – When the Hydra's attack value reaches X the hydra is removed as a casualty. Instead place a 50x100mm template on the battlefield. It is dangerous terrain(3) for all units and contributes to soft cover. Any unit in close combat with the Hydra when this happens may do a post combat reform, but must end clear of the template.

    Ideas and variations: I like the idea, because it captures the flavour of the Hydra as something you just cannot kill. It also captures the increasing deadliness, the more heads it gains. A variation could be, that a Beast Master might "tend" to his Hydra before the battle and already "groom" some heads before to start with more attacks. Whether or not you could kill the Hydra by winning combat and then running it down is open for debate. You could make the Hydra unbreakable to prevent that.

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  • First off, I’m no rules writer so I’ll get just the basic ideas down. If you see a hole don’t @ me lol just re word it so it can be usable.... I’m the big picture type!

    Auxiliaries:
    If an auxiliarie unit causes a wound to enemy units from shooting, that unit gains “marked for death” until the end of the game.

    “Marked for death”- academy units gain +(whatever ADT wants) for first round of combat.

    DeathBringer: great weapon enchantment.
    If a wound is caused by the user, the unit gains death trance.


    Medusa: instead of bound spell : shooting attack range 18”: unit must perform a discipline check, if the unit fails it cannot March and have minus 1 to shoot for 1 turn.
    Maybe this can be toned down but the concept I like
  • Well I did it!
    I wrote up a very detailed LAB proposal.
    Hopefully it's easy for peopel to read.

    Here is the drop box link:
    dropbox.com/s/9t9naxewy47cl0c/…0LAB%20proposal.docx?dl=0

    Here is the forum section:
    LAB probosal for T9A Dread Elf faction..

    Tag those who you feel should it. And feedback is much appreciated.
    Feedback in this thread is still helpful.
  • GSbasic wrote:

    Medusa: instead of bound spell : shooting attack range 18”: unit must perform a discipline check, if the unit fails it cannot March and have minus 1 to shoot for 1 turn.
    Interesting. I like it.


    ----------------------

    The Auxillariy special rules is gonna be a tough one. Lots of cool rules but its gotta useful as well as fit into the right power level.
  • Ozzy666 wrote:

    I just had this thought - Apart from mounts and monsters the only non-elves are Medusas and Harpies. Medusa's rule set indicates Medusas are daemons, which makes them easily acceptable. But what about Harpies?
    1. Are they an intelligent species? If so, they cannot be slaves (since DE don't use slaves for military purposes). So why do they fight for DE then?
    2. Are they a sub-species/sub-breed of elves? If so, they wouldn't fight completely unarmed and unarmoured. And why would they be Insignificant?
    3. Are they more akin to animals/beasts? If so, they don't seem like something DE would be interested in taming. Then why would they even bother with them?

    Best Wishes
    Ozzy
    Here would be my suggestion for that:

    Medusa represent Elves which have undergone some body transformation.
    Harpies could be also considered as Elves having undergone another transformation. They fight naked because any equipment would make them too heavy and cumbersome to fly.

    Additionally, new core and elite units could make good use of the superb Naga models (half snake, half elf) available from various manufacturers.
    Together, these "transformed" elves could get characters, fighting troops, shooting troops and flyers.

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  • Calisson wrote:

    Ozzy666 wrote:

    I just had this thought - Apart from mounts and monsters the only non-elves are Medusas and Harpies. Medusa's rule set indicates Medusas are daemons, which makes them easily acceptable. But what about Harpies?
    1. Are they an intelligent species? If so, they cannot be slaves (since DE don't use slaves for military purposes). So why do they fight for DE then?
    2. Are they a sub-species/sub-breed of elves? If so, they wouldn't fight completely unarmed and unarmoured. And why would they be Insignificant?
    3. Are they more akin to animals/beasts? If so, they don't seem like something DE would be interested in taming. Then why would they even bother with them?

    Best Wishes
    Ozzy
    Here would be my suggestion for that:
    Medusa represent Elves which have undergone some body transformation.
    Harpies could be also considered as Elves having undergone another transformation. They fight naked because any equipment would make them too heavy and cumbersome to fly.

    Additionally, new core and elite units could make good use of the superb Naga models (half snake, half elf) available from various manufacturers.
    Together, these "transformed" elves could get characters, fighting troops, shooting troops and flyers.
    Monsterous infantry?! It’s my dream but I won’t hold my breath...
  • GSbasic wrote:

    Calisson wrote:

    Ozzy666 wrote:

    I just had this thought - Apart from mounts and monsters the only non-elves are Medusas and Harpies. Medusa's rule set indicates Medusas are daemons, which makes them easily acceptable. But what about Harpies?
    1. Are they an intelligent species? If so, they cannot be slaves (since DE don't use slaves for military purposes). So why do they fight for DE then?
    2. Are they a sub-species/sub-breed of elves? If so, they wouldn't fight completely unarmed and unarmoured. And why would they be Insignificant?
    3. Are they more akin to animals/beasts? If so, they don't seem like something DE would be interested in taming. Then why would they even bother with them?

    Best Wishes
    Ozzy
    Here would be my suggestion for that:Medusa represent Elves which have undergone some body transformation.
    Harpies could be also considered as Elves having undergone another transformation. They fight naked because any equipment would make them too heavy and cumbersome to fly.

    Additionally, new core and elite units could make good use of the superb Naga models (half snake, half elf) available from various manufacturers.
    Together, these "transformed" elves could get characters, fighting troops, shooting troops and flyers.
    Monsterous infantry?! It’s my dream but I won’t hold my breath...
    @Calisson @Ozzy666
    Addressing all three quotes here.

    In my personal army I use converted Dragonling models. The dragons are a sentient species that is allied to Dread Elves. In some lores regarding dragons they can have lots of offspring where only very few make it to full grown adulthood, so Dread Elves beastmaster the little ones, any that grow big eventually are too sentient to stay 'harnessed'.
    In some lores the dragons also have big litters or spawnings of eggs but there are variations of dragon that get born. You get dragonlings that never grow big, you get flightless drakes, you get medium/dragons, and big dragons. Not all are sentient, especially the smaller ones. The lores have various ways of explaining this.

    To make T9A it's own lore I would say the the Harpies represent an assortment of tameable beasts. Flying lizards, Bats, biggish birds, etc...
    Manufacturers make harpy models because breasts sell. So I wouldn't overly concern ourselves with making boobies lore friendly. lol.
    Even those harpies aren't nessessarily half elf/half bird. They are simply humanoid. ...it's a humanoid bird. Like a monkey but with wings.

    Que the wizard of ozz copyright lawyers. lol.

    This way the harpeis are just a natural made species that are humnoid but not sentient. Perhaps an offshoot in elf evolution? ....don't bring sci-fi genetics into it, just let evolution do it's thing. If people want to have half breeds to explain their own personal armies that't totally cool.

    Maybe work with the Beastherds lore and make them the same unit entry as gargoyles, no Primal instinct in elf army though as they have been Harnessed by the beastmasters. And if the current beastmaster rules gets extended to harpies like I wrote in my LAB purposal, that still makes it feel like a beast.
    I know beast herds are a sentient species but it doesn't sound like every unit entry of the beastherds is on the same level of sentience. This way slavers go raid the bestherds, the mongrols and wildhornds go to the slave pens, harpies and hounds to go the beastmaters.



    -------------------------

    As for medusa. We can go any old way with it.
    I'd prefer not to go the 'merging of elf and supernal' as that feels more like an infernal dwarf thing. BUT, if well written it can be cool. It just depends on the direction T9A wants to go with supernals.

    Here is my personal example on Sylvan Trees to give a reference of one type of direction for allied supernals:
    Like for Sylvan elves I imagined that the Trees were once actual beings from the veil who simply possessed the Trees as a vessel to stay in the material realm. And then due to the unique nature of the trees(make up some fluff with their winter sleep cycle) the viel beings were able to stay in the trees. And then there became an odd quirk where their energies sometimes get passed on to the seedlings which kinda created the actual sentient tree species. Some grow into dryads, some grow into TreeKin(...I still can't remember the BeastShrub name even though its been like 4 years), some grow into the large Trees.
    This is why they are have alot of traits of supernal but are not supernal.
    WAnd the tree peoples like to plant themselves to regrow and regenerate, they go dormant. If they don't' do this on a regular basis then their energy can burn out and die. So this make a really good alliance with the sylvan elves because they also protect the trees.

    For dread elves though I think the medusa's should be full on Supernal beings from the veil that venture into the mortal realm and fight along side the Dread Elves. Perhaps fluff wise they are attracted to the blood sacrifices or something which is why they are part of the cults. The blood sacrifices from the Alter provide energy for the supernals to stay in the material world.
    Why are they half elf, half snake? ....because Veil Beings manifest in various ways?
    There are a few snake people models out there people can use. We shouldn't overly concern ourselves with making exact rules for the certain models, but we can of course keep it in mind.

    The post was edited 7 times, last by Peacemaker ().

  • I was thinking about that Idea for xbows getting supporting cover fire when a unit charges. Like a reverse version of the HBE rule.
    I'm not fully on the band wagon for this rule but this is how I would try to balance it:

    Both units have to have academy rule as charging with supporting fire requires training.
    Both units have to be within 6" of each other.
    Shooting unit has to abide by all normal shooting rules, only exception is that this an out of sequence shot. So it has to be within range, etc...
    You declare charge, opponent declares reaction. If unit flees then you can't shoot. If they hold or S&S then you can use supporting fire rule.
    The shooting unit can't charge but can do everything else as normal that turn. Otherwise not much incentive.

    ---------------------------

    The more I think about it, the more I see possible cheese that breaks immersion. And then we end up adding more and more details to fix it. The rule becomes half a page just to allow a shooting unit to plunk 1-2 wounds off the enemy before a charge. And it goes against a bunch of the guidelines which would mean this is a special exception....just better to put something else in.

    Compare it to Cover Volley - sure it is a long rule but half of it's points are just stating to follow normal rules and it's just an 'out of sequence' shot.
  • @Calisson based on our very last update of the medusa, the background is the medusa is like the “final form” of an elf ie those blessed by Yema.

    I really hope our Background team would actually step up and actually for fluff pieces that improve/adds character to the army instead of electing other proverbial hills to make a last stand on :)
  • @arwaker

    xaby86 wrote:

    LR is one of the rules that bother me the most when I play against DE and at the beginning I didn't like it at all, I wanted it to go away, but I have already assimilated it. I think Distracting is too OP for them, but I understand that they die like flies so I would do a Distracting light, and the closest thing is Parry. I think this looks good because there are very few units with this rule among the elves, only characters, 2 units of DE (spearless warriors and yolk gladiators) and I think none between HE and SE.

    I don't know well the insistence of a resistance to impact hits, maybe it's because they're supposed to be fast to avoid them, but personally I think it would have to affect them as much as anyone but you could give a small Aegis against them, if there's a real need, so it won't be too expensive.

    All together it would be something like that:

    Elven reflexes:The unit have LR and Parry.
    (Extra 1: Aegis 5+ (vs impact hits)
    (Extra 2: could be only by the front to limit it)

    The elves would look super cool but I'm afraid there would then be complaints with the non-combat units, like archers, about the cost overrun.
    no worries xaby. I’m really not mad at all it’s just if everyone discusses there some valuable feedback might be lost.
  • About rules for all the elves:

    LR is one of the rules that bother me the most when I play against DE and at the beginning I didn't like it at all, I wanted it to go away, but I have already assimilated it. I think Distracting is too OP for them, but I understand that they die like flies so I would do a Distracting light, and the closest thing is Parry. I think this looks good because there are very few units with this rule among the elves, only characters, 2 units of DE (spearless warriors and yolk gladiators) and I think none between HE and SE.

    I don't know well the insistence of a resistance to impact hits, maybe it's because they're supposed to be fast to avoid them, but personally I think it would have to affect them as much as anyone but you could give a small Aegis against them, if there's a real need, so it won't be too expensive.

    All together it would be something like that:

    Elven reflexes:
    The unit have LR and Parry.
    (Extra 1: Aegis 5+ (vs impact hits)
    (Extra 2: could be only by the front to limit it)

    The elves would look super cool but I'm afraid there would then be complaints with the non-combat units, like archers, about the cost overrun.

    About the armour and short distance protection:

    I don't think DE has to play with the issue of armor, it could make it more interesting that the important thing is the layers or tunics, which are related to leftovers, subterfuge, ambushes from anywhere. It's true that some units could have good armor, but I like the look of DE with intermediate armor, not too heavy, not too light or not at all.

    The short distance protection can have easy and pleasant solutions, without being related to the armor, I do not see a very big problem. I can think of a rule that makes our units always at a long distance to fire them, or even that the range of the weapons is reduced by 6" (3" for pistols) or that modifies the limit of the short range of the weapon by half (for example, Arch: 24", short shot normally 6") there are as many possible formulas.....

    About xbows:

    I was thinking that actually shooting in the movement phase, during the charges, is not so strange, the enemy could shoot us too.

    Then the rule would be as it is:

    Auxiliary fire.
    When an Academy unit declares a charge, a single unit with Auxiliary Fire can immediately fire on the same unit before completing the charge, with the following conditions and restrictions:

    - in case it holds and fires as a reaction, the shots from the unit receiving the charge are resolved first.
    - The unit that charge must be able to complete the charge, in case of failed charge it will not be able to fire. (Following this order: declaration of the charge, declaration of the reaction of the charged unit, resolution of the reaction, if not charged failed, firing of the unit with Auxiliary Fire, movement of the unit that charges.)
    - The unit with Auxiliary fire must be within a 12" radius of the charging unit.
    - Only models with Auxiliary fire can shot.
    - The unit with Auxiliary fire must be able to shot normally (LoS, front, etc.).
    - Auxiliary Fire shots receive -1 to hit.
    - Shots do not count for combat resolution.
    - The unit may not fire again that turn in the shooting phaseand if it wishes to move it may not march (unless it wins QtF or another rule that allows it to do so, such as flying).

    Basically it is the Sea Guard rule with some modifications to be able to fire before our unit charges.
  • not sure why pointing at me :p

    My suggestion was something like:

    DE:
    Lightning Reflexes, Black Weapons providing reroll 1's in wounding, Black Armor providing 3++ against toxic attacks. No Plate Armor, no AP-resist.

    HE:
    Distracting, no Lightning Reflexes anymore, White Armor providing 6++ always and 3++ against flaming. No Plate Armor, no AP-resist.

    SE:
    Hard Target, no Lightning Reflexes anymore, Green Armor providing something fluffy dunno. No heavy armor.

    Something like that should be decided for all 3 elven factions at once.
  • I keep coming up with some random ideas:

    About harpies:

    I imagine them as a kind of cursed and degenerate, perhaps a curse or something like that. They could be scavengers and they are attracted to places where people are sacrificed. They also stay close to the slave camps, waiting to catch some unsuspecting person. The harpies accompany the DE armies because they know that wherever they go there will be meat, so they sometimes stay close to the most murderous regiments. I can see in their role that they serve to redirect units and hunt WM and other straws but they could also be a kind of 40K Dron Tau. I want to say something like that:

    Sinister flutter:
    Against all kinds of shots, after hitting, you can transfer up to half of the hits to a unit with this rule that is 6". This rule only works with infantry or cavalry units.

    They are supposed to be so close to the friendly unit because of the craving that the shots that fall on them can kill both of them. This could come in handy to protect some expensive units like knights or elites during the vital T1 (another protection rule for short range fire).He would also see a rule that when they fly over enemies they attack them, so they can do damage while they move in search of WM.

    About the hydra:

    I like what they say about me winning attacks until I die, but the fact that it becomes a terrain already seems complicated to me.

    About weapons:

    Certainly I think that the rule of spears SE with +1AP should be DE but I also think that there is too much AP in the game. For me SE should lose that rule because I don't see how the more rural elves can have better blacksmiths than the others, maybe they should share the role of high S and AP for the ents. Well, since I'm not in favor of giving them the same as the SE if I think they could have a lettal strike but light rule, like "each 6 to wound +2AP".
  • WhammeWhamme wrote:

    Squirrelloid wrote:

    WhammeWhamme wrote:

    Like, y'all are not making an argument for elves getting plate; you're making an argument for deleting the line about "elves have high quality armour". Elves don't archetypally clank around in heavy armour. That's dwarves and human knights (/evil human knights).

    So either embrace "elves get bonuses other than their armour being plate" or lobby to have that changed to "elves don't believe in armour, often choosing to go into battle sky-clad".
    On the one hand, 'the heavily armored elves' would be a unique niche to help differentiate elf books. It doesn't have to be DE, it could be HbE, but artificial constraints about 'what is elf-like' is what is making the elf books so darn similar to each other.On the other hand, look at all the dark elf models on the market. They're generally either naked or in plate armor. Maybe you can find one in leather armor somewhere, maybe, but by and large plate is what dark elves are put in. It looks more evil or something. So you can't say 'dark elves in plate is weird' when most armored dark elf models that exist are already wearing it. (And that includes most of GW's models. Even the basic DE spear elves from GW are in heavy armor, and Executioner's + Black Guard + COK are obviously plate.)
    Unique vis a vis other elves, yes. Unique overall, not so much. How many factions are actually "average" in armour?


    As for models: plate needs to get all the way to 'fluted' to get the +1. That, or be magic or just ungodly thick. It's reasonably consistent, and models come from so many different suppliers these days you could find a mini to support anything.
    @Squirrelloid