Scourge is not working

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  • Scourge is not working

    Hello guys,

    Gave an other chance to the Scourge yesterday and it gave me back only awkardness. At the end it died against a hero costing half its price.

    It is not good when at full HPs because it doesn't punch so much, it is not good either when at 1-2 HP left because he attacks after the opponent and basically he dies before punching back.

    I don't get the design, is he supposed to horribly die every match? A couple of players yesterday wanted to check the book again and again as they did not trust me he was like so.

    I'll try him again a couple of times more just to be sure..

    Anyhow, we have the solution.

    Solution 1: Make him Agi 4 +1 Agi per wound (as rage)
    Solution 2: make him Agi 0 +2 Agi per wounf (as rage)

    This represents the bestiality of the dying daemon, and it could make him playable.


    Players from yesterday thought he was 700 pts. maximum, he was 940. Please fix it :) Looking at ETC lists, not a single Scourge
  • I'd prefer the incrementing Agi as it makes it playable, and also from the BG POV it represents him getting in super rage blood lust mode as he gets punched back.

    He is supposed to be the God of wrath, I mean the freaking GOD OF WRATH. I imagine him as in total blood lust mode when nearly dying. On the contrary on the game side he is just waiting to be punched in the face, so why is it so?
  • Because the last bloodthrister was toxic and bad for gameplay. High damage and high agility, together, are a pairing for bad game design, because there is no counter play. If you charge him, and you die before you strike, you accomplished nothing due to the binary Agi system.

    And if we just give him a normal agility we're shifting the problem to biasedly effect low Agi armies over fast ones. Meta of Dwarves and Ogres would have the same issue with an Agi 5 Scourge as they would with an Agi 8 one.

    High durability high manouverability high attack power high agility isn't a combination this game should have, no matter the point cost.
  • Ogres and low agi is a trap though. They strike first against everything if they want to.
    I am the fat Turk that infiltrated the Norwegian Druid Caste.

    I would have been better than you if I could roll a 4 on 2D6.

    To crush your enemies, to see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentations of ELVES.

    Sylvan Elves
    Dread Elves
    Beast Herds
    Daemonic Legions
    Warriors of the Dark Gods
    Storm Cast Eternals (WAIT WHAT?)
  • Alexwellace wrote:

    Because the last bloodthrister was toxic and bad for gameplay. High damage and high agility, together, are a pairing for bad game design, because there is no counter play. If you charge him, and you die before you strike, you accomplished nothing due to the binary Agi system.

    And if we just give him a normal agility we're shifting the problem to biasedly effect low Agi armies over fast ones. Meta of Dwarves and Ogres would have the same issue with an Agi 5 Scourge as they would with an Agi 8 one.

    High durability high manouverability high attack power high agility isn't a combination this game should have, no matter the point cost.

    Well the counter game is very simple instead: spells, fire, units with good damage output in body to body that strike back.

    Indeed now is spells and fire before body to body, then getting killed in body to body (if you reach it, good luck with Divination and +2 channels from us).

    "High durability high manouverability high attack power high agility isn't a combination this game should have", every flying monster in the game is something like that, apart from the Scourge

    very important edit: when you say "Because the last bloodthrister was toxic and bad for gameplay" please remember that the Scourge is nothing compared to the bloodthirster (it is a complete different unit as for all the units in the book), and thus our objective analysys should not be affected by paranoia of the old bloodthirster.

    In addition it is a 1000 pts. model so I think it is supposed to be scary.

    The post was edited 2 times, last by Kosta ().

  • I have to agree with Kosta.

    The current Scourge is unplayable. Even if you cut its points cost in half, it still wouldn't be playable because it dies too easily.

    "High durability high manouverability high attack power high agility isn't a combination this game should have." Sure, but the Scourge doesn't have high Agility or high durability. It's maneuverability is above average, but not extraordinary. And it's offense looks amazing on paper, but in practice is likely only going to do around 6-8 wounds in a round of combat, which is tremendously lackluster for a model that is going to be over 800 points before considering wizard levels or being the general (especially since it's going to die before it has a chance to have more than one or two such rounds). 800 points of rank-and-file troops will inflict far more wounds per round of combat and be far harder to kill.

    To me, even more important than changing the agility is improving the model's defense. It doesn't matter how awesome one perceive's the Scourge's offensive capabilities if it cannot survive long enough to bring them to bear. Assuming nothing else on the profile were changed, the model needs (at least) a 3+ armor save and a constant 4+ Aegis with no increase in points. (A 5+ save would be acceptable since you could at least buy the upgrade, but the upgrade would be one everyone would take and it would cut into other options.)
  • saldiven wrote:

    I have to agree with Kosta.

    The current Scourge is unplayable. Even if you cut its points cost in half, it still wouldn't be playable because it dies too easily.

    "High durability high manouverability high attack power high agility isn't a combination this game should have." Sure, but the Scourge doesn't have high Agility or high durability. It's maneuverability is above average, but not extraordinary. And it's offense looks amazing on paper, but in practice is likely only going to do around 6-8 wounds in a round of combat, which is tremendously lackluster for a model that is going to be over 800 points before considering wizard levels or being the general (especially since it's going to die before it has a chance to have more than one or two such rounds). 800 points of rank-and-file troops will inflict far more wounds per round of combat and be far harder to kill.

    To me, even more important than changing the agility is improving the model's defense. It doesn't matter how awesome one perceive's the Scourge's offensive capabilities if it cannot survive long enough to bring them to bear. Assuming nothing else on the profile were changed, the model needs (at least) a 3+ armor save and a constant 4+ Aegis with no increase in points. (A 5+ save would be acceptable since you could at least buy the upgrade, but the upgrade would be one everyone would take and it would cut into other options.)

    Agree in total.

    When at 1 HP he is doing 10/11 Attacks Str7 OS 9. Great! Not really as he is 1 HP less at Agi 0 and DS 4.
  • old scourge was very strong but still killable...but ok..

    ...but when rewriting the actual scourge think about WDG Feldrak Ancestor w/paired weapons.
    For 775pts (without magical weapon) he has:

    8 wounds, T6, AS 3+, Def6, Adv8"-Mar16", D9, Flaming attacks reroll against him

    7A Off7 S7 AP4 Agi3, hatred against Fly

    It's very strong.


    A 1000pts scourge should be at least at his level
  • As an alternative way of approaching this, perhaps I can moot a different question.

    Assuming nothing about the scourge's design, other than that it is a combat focussed powerful flying gigantic monster character, and assuming that it is costed correctly... what price would people like to see it having?

    I.e. if you were asked to give the designers a guideline* of "design a scourge that you expect to cost about X pts", what value would you give for X?




    * : I'm not saying that this is a good or sensible guideline, or that this is the kind of guideline that the project uses, this is all purely hypothetical.
    People want t9a/RT to simultaneously square, triangle, and icosagon the circle, whilst vehemently attacking it if there are any corners.

    ID blog
    Dan ventures into the lands of smoke and fire

    Basic beginners tactics
    No 'tactics for beginners' thread?
  • If someone like me could take it and win an entire tournament without taking a wound on him is plain wrong.

    Is not gw. GD have a different meaning in this game and Vanadra is not Khorne. We have to adapt the concept on the field with mechanics, not make a fling unkillable murder machine with magical support.

    Playtester

    DL-Comunity Support

    Master of the Coins

  • DanT wrote:

    As an alternative way of approaching this, perhaps I can moot a different question.

    Assuming nothing about the scourge's design, other than that it is a combat focussed powerful flying gigantic monster character, and assuming that it is costed correctly... what price would people like to see it having?

    I.e. if you were asked to give the designers a guideline* of "design a scourge that you expect to cost about X pts", what value would you give for X?




    * : I'm not saying that this is a good or sensible guideline, or that this is the kind of guideline that the project uses, this is all purely hypothetical.
    Actually I think right now pricewise speaking, the price range is the only correct thing.

    No Mage and with 2 upgrades is 800 pts. already

    Mage and many upgrades is nearly 1000 pts.

    The price range is OK, but you should expect to choke a dragon for 1000 pts.


    I'm still saying that if you just make, e.g.:

    DS 3 Agi 3 Att 5

    Rage (+1 DS, Agi, Att per HP lost)

    At the same price, then it could maybe become playable. That's just my idea but if you could just make a polling here on some fixing ideas we'll see the community feedback which is what is really needed.


    And then.. I understand this is the last book, new phylosophy, etc. But every army has something which is OP, some armies even 2/3 OP stuff (look at VS, Eos, UD and these are just the first ones in my mind).

    So what is the problem in a greater daemon able to actually do something in combat when you have Ushabtis, VS lightning wheels Pendulum and jezzails, a complete 1+ armour army with the mirror priest and a ton of other things in the game which are already OP?

    And I don't mind the OP units of the other armies, these are OK, you just learn how to deal with them somehow. Which is extremely difficult when you don't really have nothing OP in the book.
  • Kosta wrote:

    DanT wrote:

    As an alternative way of approaching this, perhaps I can moot a different question.

    Assuming nothing about the scourge's design, other than that it is a combat focussed powerful flying gigantic monster character, and assuming that it is costed correctly... what price would people like to see it having?

    I.e. if you were asked to give the designers a guideline* of "design a scourge that you expect to cost about X pts", what value would you give for X?




    * : I'm not saying that this is a good or sensible guideline, or that this is the kind of guideline that the project uses, this is all purely hypothetical.
    Actually I think right now pricewise speaking, the price range is the only correct thing.
    So, just to clarify, you want an increase in eliteness not a price reduction? So it isn't the playability that primarily concerns you, but the feel? (Bear in mind that the current price is unlikely to be correct for the current design; and it may be that the design changes you want would ultimately require a higher price than you estimate).




    And then.. I understand this is the last book, new phylosophy, etc. But every army has something which is OP, some armies even 2/3 OP stuff (look at VS, Eos, UD and these are just the first ones in my mind).

    So what is the problem in a greater daemon able to actually do something in combat when you have Ushabtis, VS lightning wheels Pendulum and jezzails, a complete 1+ armour army with the mirror priest and a ton of other things in the game which are already OP?

    And I don't mind the OP units of the other armies, these are OK, you just learn how to deal with them somehow. Which is extremely difficult when you don't really have nothing OP in the book.
    This is a terrible argument. Nothing should be OP.

    Having OP things in one book is not a reason to have OP things in other books, it is a reason to remove OP things from the books that have them...
    OP things do untold damage to the internal balance of a book, no-one want this surely?

    People want t9a/RT to simultaneously square, triangle, and icosagon the circle, whilst vehemently attacking it if there are any corners.

    ID blog
    Dan ventures into the lands of smoke and fire

    Basic beginners tactics
    No 'tactics for beginners' thread?
  • DanT wrote:

    As an alternative way of approaching this, perhaps I can moot a different question.

    Assuming nothing about the scourge's design, other than that it is a combat focussed powerful flying gigantic monster character, and assuming that it is costed correctly... what price would people like to see it having?

    I.e. if you were asked to give the designers a guideline* of "design a scourge that you expect to cost about X pts", what value would you give for X?




    * : I'm not saying that this is a good or sensible guideline, or that this is the kind of guideline that the project uses, this is all purely hypothetical.
    Hi

    In my mind flying monster endurance 6 speaks dragon so base 600 pt then the inherent 5+ aegis 50 pt and mage so depending on
    aprentice/adept something like 75/150 pt more depending on what he as acess to. So in the order or 725-800 pt on par with the Vermin daemon (VS) and Exalted Herald (WdG). And with 150 pt manifestations of course for a max around 950 pt fully buffed.

    In my views the Vermin deamon is a good example for him. With a little less magic (he should no be master) and a bit more on the close
    combat department.

    all the best

    Paulo
    Dread Elves first and foremost
  • The issue with scourge is that he has 5+1 (defacto hammerhand) base attacks so his initial output even with no Parry OS9 is too low for 800 900 pts.

    He becomes 900pts threatening once he has 8 9 attacks but it means he has 3 wounds left. Striking last means he cannot risk going into anything where his 9 s7 attacks would be point efficient. He cant go into charachters, good monsters, monstrous cav, elite inf.

    What usually happens is he gets shot up a bit kills a monster then he runs away all the time. Not very thematic and not very point efficient.

    If he had 4+ armor (OH NO how can DL have armor the heresy (slow dwarves and low agi OK comes to mind but whatever)) then at least the shot up part would be alleviated.

    Or he makes his base 5 attacks when he dies without any spell/manifestation benefits

    Or his agi increases with attacks

    Or he gets the 4+ against shooting as well

    Long story short if you want to make him an Uber giant for 900pts at least make sure either he hits when he is pissed or that he atarts losing wounds in combat not ranged (within reason).

    There is a 100 ways to solve his problems and increasing his to hit even more is not it.
    I am the fat Turk that infiltrated the Norwegian Druid Caste.

    I would have been better than you if I could roll a 4 on 2D6.

    To crush your enemies, to see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentations of ELVES.

    Sylvan Elves
    Dread Elves
    Beast Herds
    Daemonic Legions
    Warriors of the Dark Gods
    Storm Cast Eternals (WAIT WHAT?)
  • By the way just to screw the netlisting and for showing that everything is relatively usuable (blazing glories, courtesan, maw, deamon engine, 0 hounds, 0 fiends) I really thought about taking him for ESC and ETC but the rewards are almost never worth the risk.

    A flying 2xGW giant is cool but it is never 900pts cool.
    I am the fat Turk that infiltrated the Norwegian Druid Caste.

    I would have been better than you if I could roll a 4 on 2D6.

    To crush your enemies, to see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentations of ELVES.

    Sylvan Elves
    Dread Elves
    Beast Herds
    Daemonic Legions
    Warriors of the Dark Gods
    Storm Cast Eternals (WAIT WHAT?)
  • DanT wrote:

    Kosta wrote:

    DanT wrote:

    As an alternative way of approaching this, perhaps I can moot a different question.

    Assuming nothing about the scourge's design, other than that it is a combat focussed powerful flying gigantic monster character, and assuming that it is costed correctly... what price would people like to see it having?

    I.e. if you were asked to give the designers a guideline* of "design a scourge that you expect to cost about X pts", what value would you give for X?




    * : I'm not saying that this is a good or sensible guideline, or that this is the kind of guideline that the project uses, this is all purely hypothetical.
    Actually I think right now pricewise speaking, the price range is the only correct thing.So, just to clarify, you want an increase in eliteness not a price reduction? So it isn't the playability that primarily concerns you, but the feel? (Bear in mind that the current price is unlikely to be correct for the current design; and it may be that the design changes you want would ultimately require a higher price than you estimate).


    Well not exactly. I mean that after playing the Scourge already in 5 matches total, I think the right price for him when set at 1000 points it would be something nearly 500/600 pts. maximum.

    And I'm not sure I would play him anyhow even at 500 pts. because if something is unplayable is not a matter of points anymore.

    If we make him playable and the price goes to 1200 pts., then it becomes unplayable again.
    What I mean is that 800/1000 pts. is the right price for a greater daemon focused at combat and that it can front charge a dragon.

    Please make a list with the Scourge and test the list for a couple of times and you'll be on my side :)



    And then.. I understand this is the last book, new phylosophy, etc. But every army has something which is OP, some armies even 2/3 OP stuff (look at VS, Eos, UD and these are just the first ones in my mind).

    So what is the problem in a greater daemon able to actually do something in combat when you have Ushabtis, VS lightning wheels Pendulum and jezzails, a complete 1+ armour army with the mirror priest and a ton of other things in the game which are already OP?

    And I don't mind the OP units of the other armies, these are OK, you just learn how to deal with them somehow. Which is extremely difficult when you don't really have nothing OP in the book.
    This is a terrible argument. Nothing should be OP.

    Having OP things in one book is not a reason to have OP things in other books, it is a reason to remove OP things from the books that have them...
    OP things do untold damage to the internal balance of a book, no-one want this surely?

    These are nice thoughts but the reality is different. Every army has something really strong, we can say OP. So at first is almost impossible rework this, or is the 9th Age team looking on how to nerf all the OP things in the other armies?

    For now, the only things that get nerfed are the daemons strong units (e.g. hoarders, flies). Now everyone is playing fiends and brazens because are the only good choices. Will they also be nerfed?

    And then, well I like the OP presence (as it is now I mean, not as it was in the old world). You know that every army has something really strong and you need to take counter actions which is the base of the game.
    If we would have only mediocre units then I think it would not be fun :)


    Think about the old Chicken greater daemon, it was OP. Every one knew this was the OP thing in your army list and every one was playing having this info in mind. I mean this level of OP is OK as far as you have only a couple of such units in the book.