ETC 2019 - ID Lists

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    • @DanT, don't get me wrong, you can build this army to have a decent to good match-up against all those Monstrous things out there, but it will lose a ton of points against all those armies it used to crush. Without a Pyro Master suddenly most Elf lists are an nightmare (cause they hit better and harder, both in shooting as combat).

      If I would have run the Immortal brick I had considered running (- Bull Vizier, Goblin Chief, Taurukhs, 2x Bolt Throwers, + Overlord (GW, Steel Skin, Dragonfire Gem) + 26 Immortals (FCG, IoRC)) than UD would have been way easier, cause they have a huge problem against this brick. They buffs/debuffs do little against it and the backswing ALWAYS hurts.

      However, by doing so I lose a lot of percentages in other match-ups (namely VS, cause they have finally a good target for their Catapults). Hence, it is a trade-off, if your metagame doesn't demand X, you can skip it. However, as soon as it demands X and Y, you are screwed, since the tools ID has for either ones do not overlap (it gets even worse, if there are more components in there like Hero.Hammer, which again demands something different).

      Most other armies have some form of overlap from their tools between the different things, most notably are HE and DE with the Bolt Throwers, which are ALWAYS good. OnG have Iron Orcs and Poison Spear Goblins, again two units with a massive overlap against most threats.

      ID has the Titan and that's it. Only the Titan is truly decent to good vs close to every kind of unit and playstyle (hence why I rate him so highly). There is no universally good Path, there is no universally good combat brick (no, Immortals with IW and Shields are not good against everything, they lose to everything which wants to truly fight while having massive problems with buff magic) and also the shooting is rather specific.

      As an ID player, if you know exactly how the metagame looks like, you can build the most devastating and crushing army out there (2x30 Immortals with Alchemy and double Overlord, good luck against this as long as you are not playing combat DE or WDG). However, those builds are USUALLY very narrow and are rather unfit for a team tournament, where you cannot gurantee a good match-up each and every round.

      So yeah, ID has a problem, but it always had it, even back in broken 1.0 times.

      Greetings,
      Kathal
      "When four Kings abdicate their thrones, do you really have a Kingdom anymore?"

      I kind have a "blog" now: From Beer and Bretzle vol 2

      [ETC 2016 - ID] [ETC 2017 - WDG] [ETC 2018 - ID] [ETC 2019 - ID]
    • Kathal wrote:

      @DanT, don't get me wrong, you can build this army to have a decent to good match-up against all those Monstrous things out there, but it will lose a ton of points against all those armies it used to crush. Without a Pyro Master suddenly most Elf lists are an nightmare (cause they hit better and harder, both in shooting as combat).

      If I would have run the Immortal brick I had considered running (- Bull Vizier, Goblin Chief, Taurukhs, 2x Bolt Throwers, + Overlord (GW, Steel Skin, Dragonfire Gem) + 26 Immortals (FCG, IoRC)) than UD would have been way easier, cause they have a huge problem against this brick. They buffs/debuffs do little against it and the backswing ALWAYS hurts.

      However, by doing so I lose a lot of percentages in other match-ups (namely VS, cause they have finally a good target for their Catapults). Hence, it is a trade-off, if your metagame doesn't demand X, you can skip it. However, as soon as it demands X and Y, you are screwed, since the tools ID has for either ones do not overlap (it gets even worse, if there are more components in there like Hero.Hammer, which again demands something different).

      Most other armies have some form of overlap from their tools between the different things, most notably are HE and DE with the Bolt Throwers, which are ALWAYS good. OnG have Iron Orcs and Poison Spear Goblins, again two units with a massive overlap against most threats.

      ID has the Titan and that's it. Only the Titan is truly decent to good vs close to every kind of unit and playstyle (hence why I rate him so highly). There is no universally good Path, there is no universally good combat brick (no, Immortals with IW and Shields are not good against everything, they lose to everything which wants to truly fight while having massive problems with buff magic) and also the shooting is rather specific.

      As an ID player, if you know exactly how the metagame looks like, you can build the most devastating and crushing army out there (2x30 Immortals with Alchemy and double Overlord, good luck against this as long as you are not playing combat DE or WDG). However, those builds are USUALLY very narrow and are rather unfit for a team tournament, where you cannot gurantee a good match-up each and every round.

      So yeah, ID has a problem, but it always had it, even back in broken 1.0 times.

      Greetings,
      Kathal
      Interesting, I don't feel these tradeoffs anywhere near as strongly as you.
      My last few ID lists are pretty all round as far as I can tell, but then I tend to build lists with with overlapping and flexible toolboxes for every army and I've never really metagamed in my life, so maybe it is my idiosyncrasies at play here.

      An ETC player copied one of my lists and I believe scored 56pts with relatively little practice.
      Given the fact that the list is designed to suit me, and I have had substantial practice with it, I don't think it is unreasonable to have expected a score of 70+ with it (and I don't think it is the best list in the book by a fair way).
      And it is kinda opposite to your philosophy in many ways.

      Isn't this game exciting? :D
      Being supportive & giving useful criticism aren't mutually exclusive.
      Are you supportive of the project? Do your posts reflect that?

      List repository and links HERE
      Basic beginners tactics HERE
    • Hmm never had a problem with Monsters or multi wound stuff with my ID. Have more problems with certain hero builds.

      However Errata of Haze of Magnesia (which is against the rules of other permanent spells castrated the onyx core even more)

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Traumdieb ().

    • @Kathal your point is very interesting but i disagree with you.

      First of all im not an etc player; i play arround 30-40 games a year. And ive been playing id since 8th, ive been playing alpha beta and all versions.

      Id in the past had some tools for dealing with monsters or big guys we had the best monster of the game the titan, who suffered multiple nerfs to be the actual titan.

      We had the lord plus the ring (redesigned and nerfed) wich provided mobility. We had the ancient lamassu with occultism and battleaxe (redesigned/erased). We had the old rocketlauncher (redesigned and wounded by id tax) with his alternative ammo. Etc

      We were a marginal army and nobody cares about id untill abrasus broke the greek ETC. After that ETC we suffered a tsunami of people praying to the nerfhammer divinity and everithing changed.

      We had a fab lab of competitive people who redesigned the book just for competitive purposes (ej citadel guard one of the best msu units in my oppinion but bb remaining unplayable, bound daemons, subjugator and other non competitive stuff). And in my oppinion this is the main problem becouse when your pricipal virtue is not lose points and being able to do red pairings with 8-10 points (all those peolple that think that id are swords can read the first two pages of this post to understand id etc players thoughts pre etc) and you are redesigned for not dyiing you live by the meta and for the meta. You loose your adaptation hability becouse reducing points sometimes is not enough you need to have some non competitive designs (ej the old ring with a cost of 120)to be able to adapt changing the points.

      Id have what most players deserve and its ok, its the main strengh of 9th. And the new fab would change the actual state of the art, if there is an army with soul and with good designs. I really prefer doing some iterations for having a book similar to wodl than a competitive one like id one.

      But those are just my two cents

      Cheers