Undying Dynasties and The Vermin Swarm being just too much more powerfull then other armys in any phase.

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  • Lagerlof wrote:

    bargo wrote:

    Lagerlof wrote:

    We should base everything we do from now on on the "Grandpa test".

    :goldmen:
    what about the 4 year old test. my daughter thinks ogres are great and nice - she only knows them from my army and Shrek :)rats are cool too, my other army.anything with dragons is good - WDG, HBE, DE, Empire.
    pretty sure beastmen and lizards are icky
    Are rats evil?
    Depends on if you are a chef in a disney movie or the europeean population in the 14th century.

    My rats personally prefer to cook, the remains of a village after spreading a Plague there
    My rats are mostly from Nimh.
    A summary of all proposed ideas from the VS LAB brainstorm thread

    MAKE THE SWARM COWARDLY AGAIN!
    WE DEMAND TERRIBLE LEADERSHIP!
    DOWN WITH COMPETENT GENERALS!
  • To come back to the initial thread (at least regarding vermins), it seems that the biggest offender is Deamon/Pendulum/Bell (pick 2) + double Dreadmills.
    Wouldn't be an easy solution to move the dreadmills to Build and Bred category (same as the 3 others) ? Meaning that VD+Pendulum+Doublemills or double tower double mills builds are not legal anymore (at 4500pts).

    That's not really a point adjustment, but it's an easy fix... And a logical one, knowing that dreadmills are built... regarding the built and bred cat...
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  • Well the VD is the optional component of the Big3 build, so I suspect we'd just see a shift to Magisters instead without a whole lot of change to list power level.

    And truly just about all of the issues in the VS/UD/HBE books can be fixed with some point adjustments with the exception of the Dreamill, which really needs a mechanic change to its weapon so it doesn't have the capacity to auto-delete things.
  • You'd be surprised how much of the the "Big 3" of the VS become very manageable when one or more are missing. I have a frequent VS opponent, and when he only takes one Dread Mill, preferring his favorite model the Abom instead, we have some really close games, even though he also takes a Pendulum. When he takes 2 Dread Mills, it gets really hard to deal with very fast.

    I also think the VS get a bad rap in terms of where they are in power level because they are just so very annoying to fight. They ignore some fundamental rules of the game and some of their stuff just feels cheesy, and often looks undercosted if you cross compare, but there are also large segments of the book that just seem to get walked over by certain armies. I do not like the VS at all, hate facing them if it wasn't my good buddy, but even I can see that.
  • Jaina wrote:

    To come back to the initial thread (at least regarding vermins), it seems that the biggest offender is Deamon/Pendulum/Bell (pick 2) + double Dreadmills.
    Wouldn't be an easy solution to move the dreadmills to Build and Bred category (same as the 3 others) ? Meaning that VD+Pendulum+Doublemills or double tower double mills builds are not legal anymore (at 4500pts).

    That's not really a point adjustment, but it's an easy fix... And a logical one, knowing that dreadmills are built... regarding the built and bred cat...
    Sure, if you want people to stop playing the army.

    The combo is not that strong.

    Other armies have things that are equal hard or annoying to deal with.
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  • I rarely take the wheels anymore, as they are psychologically great, most opponents fear what they could do if they work a little better than normal, but most of the time, they do less than 6 jezzails while shooting, and if you don't find enemy units with more than 1 HP, it is not really great to do 2 hits in melee, while res5 4+ doesn't protect that good ...
    They are priced right, sometimes they shine, sometimes not, and they eat points from the gunner section, which is fitting, I would not want to see the amount of shooting in a VS army if the wheels where build+bred.
  • dan wrote:

    rolan wrote:

    most of the time, they do less than 6 jezzails while shooting
    With respect, if this is true I fear you're using your Dreadmills incorrectly.
    idk, math agrees with rolan. Against R4 unless you are in 12 to boost, mill averages 2w, jezzails average 2.5 .

    Against R5 1.5 for mill, 2 for jezzails.

    And jezzails benefit from 36 inch range and can likely shoot more turns oh average than the mills. Yes, dread mills have bigger spike damage, but they do average less than dread mills in shooting.

    So... maybe you are using them incorrectly :P
    “You can never know everything, and part of what you know is always wrong. Perhaps even the most important part. A portion of wisdom lies in knowing that. A portion of courage lies in going on anyways.” -Lan Mandragoran, EotW


    Dovie’andi se tovya sagain.
  • Yes mills are what they are just like cannons are what they are. They scare the crap out of things. However mills are really combat pieces in the army more then shooting pieces and I hope they remain a viable cc choice in the army. They should be pointed exactly like every other combat choice in the game. However they are better then all shooting options in our army.
  • rolan wrote:

    I rarely take the wheels anymore, as they are psychologically great, most opponents fear what they could do if they work a little better than normal, but most of the time, they do less than 6 jezzails while shooting, and if you don't find enemy units with more than 1 HP, it is not really great to do 2 hits in melee, while res5 4+ doesn't protect that good ...
    They are priced right, sometimes they shine, sometimes not, and they eat points from the gunner section, which is fitting, I would not want to see the amount of shooting in a VS army if the wheels where build+bred.
    yeah, but compare the close combat potential of them ...besides the manoeverability of them. 5 Knights attacking are normaly the end for a unit of 6 jezzails...while vs. a Dreadmill...
    Of cause it is up to everyones subjective opinion (based on individual experiences) but I doubt that the majority of gamers would share that view.
    Veteran of the Chaff Wars
  • DanT wrote:

    Phosphorus wrote:

    maybe there is a misunderstanding..I was asking about 8th. ed. (ranking) and the ranking now (current one)...and not about Version 1.0. or 1.3. And the floating between isn´t of interest here. And it might be of no interest to you, but I do find it interesting what people think what caused this changes in ranking and to discuss them.

    Starting point was my (wild) guess (beside the "bad guys are stronger -...idea :) )that the current Ranking could be (at least in part....see DE which were clearly a Top Tier army in 8th. ed,) grounded on the former Army books of 8th. ed. , that is: if an army was strong /top tier there, it "started"with an "advantage" (reluctance to "weaken" them ..and the other way around) .
    But the fluctuations are directly relevant to answering this question... :/ :S ?(

    Because if the tiers fluctuate, then it isn't unreasonable to have a moment in time that is more similar to 8th ed tiers (assuming that this is true, I am unconvinced in detail but that is irrelevant to this point) purely by chance.
    Honestly, humans love looking for patterns... that is why we have statistics, because humans are naturally terrible with overinterpreting patterns, data, correlation etc :P


    Uhm, no ? ?( At least I still don`t understand what you are hinting at. Of cause you may compare previous versions and their tier ranking with the old ranking in 8th. ed. (and might find a pattern..or not) ...but since we now have a current ranking at hand (which was the last ranking you know of?) with the current lists....we might compare them NOW with the last ranking under 8 th. ed. Given, I only have a vague knowlegde of the last ranking(s) in 8th. ed. as I said (I just stumpled on one from the beginning of 8th .ed. , but then again almost all of the armies had their 7th. ed (or even 6th. ed,) armybook).
    And concerning patterns, data and co. (and the search o ´em) and humans...yeah, you tell that the climate scientists :) (or a lot other debates) .
    But perhaps to make it more clear: I find it more interessenting what people think why the armies are there were they are today (compared to 8th. ed.) ..and so @Palmu `s reasoning (esp. concerning He) was interessting to me.
    Futile sophistry ? Mayhaps...but could as well teach the one or other thing.
    Veteran of the Chaff Wars
  • Phosphorus wrote:

    DanT wrote:

    Phosphorus wrote:

    maybe there is a misunderstanding..I was asking about 8th. ed. (ranking) and the ranking now (current one)...and not about Version 1.0. or 1.3. And the floating between isn´t of interest here. And it might be of no interest to you, but I do find it interesting what people think what caused this changes in ranking and to discuss them.

    Starting point was my (wild) guess (beside the "bad guys are stronger -...idea :) )that the current Ranking could be (at least in part....see DE which were clearly a Top Tier army in 8th. ed,) grounded on the former Army books of 8th. ed. , that is: if an army was strong /top tier there, it "started"with an "advantage" (reluctance to "weaken" them ..and the other way around) .
    But the fluctuations are directly relevant to answering this question... :/ :S ?(

    Because if the tiers fluctuate, then it isn't unreasonable to have a moment in time that is more similar to 8th ed tiers (assuming that this is true, I am unconvinced in detail but that is irrelevant to this point) purely by chance.
    Honestly, humans love looking for patterns... that is why we have statistics, because humans are naturally terrible with overinterpreting patterns, data, correlation etc :P

    Uhm, no ? ?( At least I still don`t understand what you are hinting at. Of cause you may compare previous versions and their tier ranking with the old ranking in 8th. ed. (and might find a pattern..or not) ...but since we now have a current ranking at hand (which was the last ranking you know of?) with the current lists....we might compare them NOW with the last ranking under 8 th. ed. Given, I only have a vague knowlegde of the last ranking(s) in 8th. ed. as I said (I just stumpled on one from the beginning of 8th .ed. , but then again almost all of the armies had their 7th. ed (or even 6th. ed,) armybook).And concerning patterns, data and co. (and the search o ´em) and humans...yeah, you tell that the climate scientists :) (or a lot other debates) .
    But perhaps to make it more clear: I find it more interessenting what people think why the armies are there were they are today (compared to 8th. ed.) ..and so @Palmu `s reasoning (esp. concerning He) was interessting to me.
    Futile sophistry ? Mayhaps...but could as well teach the one or other thing.
    erm... I have no idea what you are saying anymore.
    Or why you are mentioning climate scientists :/ :S ?(

    You hypothesised a link between armies being good at the end of 8th and good now.
    I merely pointed out that since the tiers have fluctuated over the course of 9th, then claiming a causal relationship between armies being good at the end of 8th and now is... odd.
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  • Nicreap wrote:

    dan wrote:

    rolan wrote:

    most of the time, they do less than 6 jezzails while shooting
    With respect, if this is true I fear you're using your Dreadmills incorrectly.
    idk, math agrees with rolan. Against R4 unless you are in 12 to boost, mill averages 2w, jezzails average 2.5 .
    Against R5 1.5 for mill, 2 for jezzails.

    And jezzails benefit from 36 inch range and can likely shoot more turns oh average than the mills. Yes, dread mills have bigger spike damage, but they do average less than dread mills in shooting.

    So... maybe you are using them incorrectly :P
    Why would you sic your Dreadmills on R4 non multiwound targets?
  • WhammeWhamme wrote:

    Mmmm. UD basic skeletons definitely do suck compared to everything else. Not sure what the issue is with KoE Knights and VC Barrow Knights - in particular, I was personally very tempted by the list DanT came up with for VC;

    Characters: 1800 points of two Independent Vampire Counts (lots of builds available, make sure you have an Occultism master)
    Core: 4x2 Bat Swarms, 1xGhouls (filling up the rest of your core points)
    Special: 1x15 Barrow Knights, FC
    Swift Death: 2x6 Vampire Knights, Musicians
    This is pretty close to what my main opponents bring against my VS. Due to the Black Knights ethereal movement I can't use terrain to even slow them down and feeding them chaff only provides the unit free healing due to Blade of True Thirst. Instead of all those Bat Swarms, he takes a big block of Skeletons to break my Steadfast. My unbelievably OP Dreadmills get exactly one turn to shoot at his Brotherhood of the Dragon VK (they kill 1 model) before he charges me and wrecks me with 12 S7 attacks. My Pendulum is the only army that has a chance to beat his unavoidable BK Deathstar. However, his Strength 6-7 Vampires tear my Pendulum to shreds while my Vermin Daemon hides like a wimp.

    I have won against VC exactly 3 times out of 12 games with the strongest "net" tourney lists I can find.

    "Well what about X model with Y rule? That can beat blah blah blah easily" you might say.

    Well I don't cater lists to my opponents, so save your Grenadier, Globe Launcher and Fellblade nonsense.

    Undead don't give a crap about Plague Catapults, Vermin Daemons or Dreadmills.

    The Disciples do pretty well. Can't complain

    The post was edited 1 time, last by The Unmarked ().

  • DanT wrote:

    erm... I have no idea what you are saying anymore.Or why you are mentioning climate scientists :/ :S ?(

    You hypothesised a link between armies being good at the end of 8th and good now.
    I merely pointed out that since the tiers have fluctuated over the course of 9th, then claiming a causal relationship between armies being good at the end of 8th and now is... odd.
    1. Well, of no interest here...will only lead to further discussions.. :)
    2. Mayhaps I slowly understand what you mean...well, I guess it depends on the specific fluctuation (of the single armies)...and as I said that must not be true for every army ..just mayhaps a tendency. As I said, DE (at the moment) is a good example that the hypothesis could not be 100% true (where ever is that the case?). Some (most(all)) armies might fluctuate around , but still tend to remain at a certain level ...e.g. if I am not mistaken, DL always were a top , or even THE top tier, tournament army (since 7th. ed.)..and VC were always a force to be reckoned with regarding the top placings. Empire was always rather a middle -tier, while Dwarfs tended to be rather at the bottom. The TENDENCY was there ..and at present seems to remain in a way.
    Veteran of the Chaff Wars
  • dan wrote:

    Nicreap wrote:

    dan wrote:

    rolan wrote:

    most of the time, they do less than 6 jezzails while shooting
    With respect, if this is true I fear you're using your Dreadmills incorrectly.
    idk, math agrees with rolan. Against R4 unless you are in 12 to boost, mill averages 2w, jezzails average 2.5 .Against R5 1.5 for mill, 2 for jezzails.

    And jezzails benefit from 36 inch range and can likely shoot more turns oh average than the mills. Yes, dread mills have bigger spike damage, but they do average less than dread mills in shooting.

    So... maybe you are using them incorrectly :P
    Why would you sic your Dreadmills on R4 non multiwound targets?
    i can think of several situations where a dread mill might shoot at single wound R4 models, but in that case it's even worse than jezzails averaging only a single wound in that case.

    @Phosphorus the problem is all the armies you just listed, maybe with the exception of VC have been at both ends of the power spectrum since this project began. They haven't been consistently in the same spot.
    “You can never know everything, and part of what you know is always wrong. Perhaps even the most important part. A portion of wisdom lies in knowing that. A portion of courage lies in going on anyways.” -Lan Mandragoran, EotW


    Dovie’andi se tovya sagain.
  • Nicreap wrote:

    @Phosphorus the problem is all the armies you just listed, maybe with the exception of VC have been at both ends of the power spectrum since this project began. They haven't been consistently in the same spot.
    Tha is the important thing.

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