SA balance ideas

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  • Another way to go may be skipping the fighting purpose and go full on Scoring (Antichaff/ Warmashinhunting) purposes.
    Def3, Off3, Light Lances, (Option of) Vanguard (Ambush may cause a significant Armystrength) and a good pointdrop. With Scoring and less damageoutput potential they would also differ from Rhamphodons as "light cavalry".
  • sonny1086 wrote:

    Another way to go may be skipping the fighting purpose and go full on Scoring (Antichaff/ Warmashinhunting) purposes.
    Def3, Off3, Light Lances, (Option of) Vanguard (Ambush may cause a significant Armystrength) and a good pointdrop. With Scoring and less damageoutput potential they would also differ from Rhamphodons as "light cavalry".
    Haha! This is description of new TitanForge amazon raptor cavalry
  • Im a bit late but:

    Glory of the Dawn Age -10Pts (80P)
    Serrated scales -20pts (45pt)
    Sphere of shielding -15pts(65pts)
    Ancient plaque -10pts (70pts)
    Raptor Spirit -15pts (65pts)
    Spirit of the stampede -10pts (60pts)
    Sun tablet +Xpts (breaking the mentioned combo would be pretty bad)
    Obsidian tesseract -20pts (15pts)
    Tree frog banner -15pts (20pts)
    Wildfire Burst -20P (55pts)

    Saurus warlord raptor same pts (120pts)
    Saurus warlord Carnosaur -30P (230P)
    Saurus veteran raptor -30pts (90pts)
    Saurus Veteran Carnosaur -30P (240P)
    Grasp of the immortal stay 120pts
    Master of reality -5pts (130pts)
    Soulfire Weaver -80pts (70pts)
    Ancient Knowledge -20 (75pts)


    Skink priest palaquin +10 (70pts)
    Skink captain Ramphodon -20pt (65pts)
    Skink Captain in pteradond -5pt (70pts)
    Caiman ancient -20 (190pts)

    Saurus warriors -1pt (20ppm)
    Crocodile -2pt (3ppm)
    Serpent stay pt (3ppm)

    Skink braves -1pt (7ppm)
    Javelin -1pt (3ppm)
    Bow -2pt (free swap)
    Caiman -10pts (80ppm)


    Caimans -10pts (200pts)
    Exta Caiman -4pts

    Temple guard -20pts (345)
    Temple guard -3ppm (29ppm)

    Raptor riders -20pts (250)
    Raptor riders -3ppm (47P)

    Snake swarms -15 (115)

    Skink hunters -2pts (12ppm)
    Starting size -5pts (105)
    Chameleons -10pts (120pts)

    Pteradon -15pt (175pts)
    fire bolas -1pt (free swap)
    Terradon shield -3pt (5ppm)

    Ramphodon riders stay 215
    Shield -2 pts (6ppm)


    Stygiosaurus -15 pts (290pts)

    Weapon beast stay 135
    Salamander -20 (10ppm) NOBODY USES THEM

    Taurosaur -35 (415pts)
    Engine of the gods +15p

    Thyroscutus
    -70pts (250) with Sun Engine
    -90P (230) with Poison
    Xhoka Lizards player - Spain

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  • yrtomin wrote:

    Kapten Kluns wrote:

    is the SA book underperforming?
    We don't really know yet.
    It is under meta which means is underperforming. One year ago SA had a refixed points, like every book. At the begining I thought they could be better, on paper. but later playing I found out that wasn't true.... u have a lot results

    That is a reality like UD are broken or HE are rubbish aswell, even @Furion compares HE with SA at the begining of his new video. In fact, Poland played SA in ETC every year, now @CrusaderPL hasn't played SA for two years.
    Dj-Palomita15 <The Lord of the TOES>
  • All _I_ want is reasonable access to playing the Saurian Ancients with an actual focus on the Saurian elements.
    I want 15 units of Saurus, Temple Guards and Raptor Riders on the table.

    How this can happen through cost structure?

    - the Guards

    make the BodyGuard of the Temple Guards a separate attribute for puchase - make it cost ..75? and cut the same cost off the TG basecost so they cost 290 for 15 and they would still be more expensive per model than Orc Eadbashers with paired weapons.

    Since the top cost unit of TG is not a balance issue - I would adjust the PPM of the additional Temple Guards to 27 so that a full brick of TG with the purchase of Body Guard has exact same end cost as before.

    I saw Russias competent Konstantin Nikulin tried to take 2 minsized TG for ETC and fail with it. Though I see it more as an act of wish than an act of grabbing the most potent stuff there is.


    - the Warriors.

    15 orc lads with spears cost 161 points (extrapolated from 215 for 20) - 15 Saurian Warriors with spears cost 285. I get that the Saurians get some lesser perks - like +1 attack in the front row and a better armor... but it is not a power discrepancy that is worth 124 points.

    Split the difference and give 15 Saurus with spears a cost of 200 seems fair. Then _add_ 2 points per model for a modest 15 point cost reduction of their top cost.


    - the Raptors.

    tbh - their cost seems rather fair, because it has to be costed for it pace as scoring potential in minimum size and for its buss potential in bigger size.

    So.. umh.. no proposals for them :)

    (yer view on my proposal @Ipower - tell me straight if ye feel I am being unjust here)
    Hermund Vigerust Endressòn Furu - Savage Sage of the Norse
    Faux-pro player and ETC vagabond.
    Enjoys the company of deluded nerds and women of unquestionably low morale.

    Do not fall to the folly of the best laid of plans - for the mind of man is fickle in the face of the dice gods.
    Give yer high fives where yer opponents dice have been blessed, and in equal give yer handshakes when they fall in malicious ways.

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Herminard ().

  • hi everyone !

    Considering the point increasing :
    - sun tablet (not too much, like 10-15pts ?) A good item with a skink priest (i love it !) And with the +2 to cast, a must have.
    - ramphodon (increase the shield ?) Really efficient with a good survivability, my opponent struggle a bit against them.
    - taurosaur (the monster + ancient ) a must have. Strong, resilient and buff wagon.

    Point decrease :
    - cuatl (some option remain the same, other need a small decrease and other big one, i only take divcuatl so i'm not really aware of every combo)
    - raptor (mount for character) for what they give, they cost an arm... okay, we've got some good cowbow but maybe need a small reduction (10-20?)
    - skinks (troops) start by 10 and not 15 and reduce a little the cost by model (take 15 with bow ? Nah :S ) (separate bow/javelin and cc one ? First start at 10 and second at 20 ? Maybe an idea. And we'll have a 3rd base ;) )
    - saurian are ok, we need a core tax and they are good for they point. Reduce the totem an bit ? Crocodile -2?

    - temple guard need both ppm and ppu reduction to come back as a usable choice like sw for cuatl guard. They pay too much for str 6 (and only ap1).

    Overall remark :
    I think it's not relevant to compare any of our unit (sw vs ork, skinks vs peasants ...) because of the environnement they have. Ok peasant cost less than, but don't have their special rules, support, magic caster, ... same for saurian. Each unit have their role, maybe very well hidden (thyro ? :whistling: :whistling: :whistling: ) but still. The lack of base choice are not reaaly one because of the option we have for each (animal totem, weapon, add of caïman, ...) we have anvil (saurian with spear) cc one (saurian) swarm one (skink + froggy banner) swarmhitting (skink with caïman), shooters (skinks). Not that bad. :D

    My two cents
    _______________________________________
    A raven in the northern mountains
  • @raven, I get your point about core having more options then what seems at first. But also consider, most armies have this different customisation options + more than 2 units. Moreover they can mismatch, like different Orc or goblin breeds in ONG, different marks in wdg...
    In SA we have very strict restriction, downright to the point of minimizing options.
    -All saurus must have same totem This is huge, and as far as ı know no such limit exists in any army.
    -Skink with javelin count towards jungle guerilla, even though they are line infantry.
    -Skink priest on palanquin cannot stand behind on mixed skink+caiman unit
    -Skinks cannot have bow and shield (why not both?)
  • raven wrote:

    hi everyone !

    Considering the point increasing :
    - sun tablet (not too much, like 10-15pts ?) A good item with a skink priest (i love it !) And with the +2 to cast, a must have.
    - ramphodon (increase the shield ?) Really efficient with a good survivability, my opponent struggle a bit against them.
    - taurosaur (the monster + ancient ) a must have. Strong, resilient and buff wagon.

    Point decrease :
    - cuatl (some option remain the same, other need a small decrease and other big one, i only take divcuatl so i'm not really aware of every combo)
    - raptor (mount for character) for what they give, they cost an arm... okay, we've got some good cowbow but maybe need a small reduction (10-20?)
    - skinks (troops) start by 10 and not 15 and reduce a little the cost by model (take 15 with bow ? Nah :S ) (separate bow/javelin and cc one ? First start at 10 and second at 20 ? Maybe an idea. And we'll have a 3rd base ;) )
    - saurian are ok, we need a core tax and they are good for they point. Reduce the totem an bit ? Crocodile -2?

    - temple guard need both ppm and ppu reduction to come back as a usable choice like sw for cuatl guard. They pay too much for str 6 (and only ap1).

    Overall remark :
    I think it's not relevant to compare any of our unit (sw vs ork, skinks vs peasants ...) because of the environnement they have. Ok peasant cost less than, but don't have their special rules, support, magic caster, ... same for saurian. Each unit have their role, maybe very well hidden (thyro ? :whistling: :whistling: :whistling: ) but still. The lack of base choice are not reaaly one because of the option we have for each (animal totem, weapon, add of caïman, ...) we have anvil (saurian with spear) cc one (saurian) swarm one (skink + froggy banner) swarmhitting (skink with caïman), shooters (skinks). Not that bad. :D

    My two cents
    Sorry, but i totally disagree with you xD !!! Except for the points drops.

    @Eymuster have right for our base's units !!! Compare the choices we have in all our army book's sections and the other armies... We are the poor of the 9th Age.

    All is expensive. Just for an example : All other monsters are better or cheaper for the same profil or the same job !!! Look at the other army books. I had done a comparative between the profil/rules that i had post in our sub-forum. Comparisons are uplifting !!!

    Sorry, but our book is a peace of sh** !!! Few choices, no synergy, all is expensive, so many restrictions ... I don't understand why our army book wasn't the first for the LAB.

    I stop here because, we are going to blame me for crying on our army, that it's crying in all sub-forums and that, in fact, our army is ultimate, the most played, the most balanced and the best ... And we'll also blame me for not being constructive.
    Yet, when we see all the aberrations of balancing of the SA compared to the others, well it makes you want to play another army.
    It's not a fault that our community has reported, identified and proved what was wrong. In addition, i find ourselves softer in our feedback compared to the other factions. Maybe we are not cying loud enough ...

    As a result, I currently do not play SA for several months and i do not intend to bring them on the battlefield before big changes. Currently, i play BH. It's better,but it's not great either. but it's better ...

    May be I shoudl invest in an army of UD, VS or VC ... ???
    Casual french player who want the success of the 9th age in the whole world ;) !

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Darkwise ().

  • Imo javelin is inferior to blowpipe because of one reason - poison. And bpipe has twice the shots, you just fish for poisons and that's it.
    Someone made an interesting solution, make baseline hunters with javelins cheaper, bpipe up to compensate. Price for bpipes stays more or less the same while javelins are considerably cheaper.
    Guerilla skirmishers need a slight drop to make them viable anyway.
  • I'm considering Warlord builds and item options based on price. I wrote a lot , but will summarize to avoid TL,DR situation

    Main idea is that, most our options are priced fairly for Warlord 200p item allowance. But we also have skink captains, veterans and ancients as BSB options. It is already hard for them to get chosen over Coatl BSB, so decreasing optional prices could help. A great way to get there is make Veteran on Baby carno more favorable for towering presence.

    Items that HAVE TO change:
    Serrated scales => has to be cheaper than Dusk forged for all cases. Or will never get used in an army that doesn't need shield to get 1+ most of the time. Cheap price might mean it can be used by a skink, so be it.

    Spirit of The Stampede: Probably not too expensive for what it does. Currently can be used 2 ways: Alpha or on a Skink captain on a Tauro. Unless you face a champion they work great. However for Veteran on Carno it can never be chosen because carno need all the defensive gear it can get. Decreasing to 50 would be too extreme. decreasing to 60 would allow a basalt infusion, thus allowing Veteran+light armor+shield+Basalt to get to 2+3++against flame. Also consider, taking stampede on anything other than a warlord means not taking starfall shard, thus leaving your 500p+ model more vulnerable

    Raptor Spirit: 80p seems fair when you compare it to the other alternative, which is riding a real raptor. But again, for caiman ancient and veteran it completely fills item allowance and therefore make it unusable. What is the really scary part of this item? And if it is really that scary, why warlord never use it? Or is there a hidden skink captain with move 10 march 16 combo I don't know about? 60p is more than fair for this item.

    Baby Carno:
    Currently can be selected for 1 reason only, and that is towering presence. Until a complete overhaul, we must consider how to make it a favorable choice. It is a mistake to compare it with the Alpha. Alpha is in a completely different league (of dragons...). Baby carno is competing with young griffon, or manticore. Internally it is competing with raptor. Raptor has 2 huge advantages; 1+armor save without magic investment, and ability to join a unit (albeit not a competetive unit). for this monster that needs 100p or more defensive investment to keep survivable, AND a better choice than raptor: 180-190p for veteran and 200-230p for warlord

    Items hard to decide:

    Tauro's Vigor: Price seems OK for what it does, +1w is huge sometimes. I would take it on a Warlord or veteran on foot or on raptor. Beta can benefit from it hugely also. Dropping it to 50p for 2+ rerollable save on beta carno wouldn't change much. Since then you are vulnerable to alchemy. However, I agree it would be autotake for anything other than alha carno in that case.

    Wildfire Burst: I think it is not the item, it is the army. This army simply lacks the synergy to make the most of this item. Maybe with FULL jungle guerilla spearback shooting + 40 bow skinks, you can get your point's worth.. I haven't seen anybody try this.

    Raptor: On the one hand I can't get over the fact it is 80p for dread elves and 120p for SA. It doesn't grant us the +1res it does to the elves. Moreover with raptor knights currently as they are, and spears everywhere we will not get a deathstar of raptors even with full raptor characters and unit. And if you run it solo you will eventually loose it or half points (if tauro's vigor). On the other hand, it still grants a lot, including 1+ armor without magic items. 10-20p drop wouldn't change much.
  • Eymuster wrote:

    I'm considering Warlord builds and item options based on price. I wrote a lot , but will summarize to avoid TL,DR situation

    Main idea is that, most our options are priced fairly for Warlord 200p item allowance. But we also have skink captains, veterans and ancients as BSB options. It is already hard for them to get chosen over Coatl BSB, so decreasing optional prices could help. A great way to get there is make Veteran on Baby carno more favorable for towering presence.
    Display Spoiler

    Items that HAVE TO change:
    Serrated scales => has to be cheaper than Dusk forged for all cases. Or will never get used in an army that doesn't need shield to get 1+ most of the time. Cheap price might mean it can be used by a skink, so be it.

    Spirit of The Stampede: Probably not too expensive for what it does. Currently can be used 2 ways: Alpha or on a Skink captain on a Tauro. Unless you face a champion they work great. However for Veteran on Carno it can never be chosen because carno need all the defensive gear it can get. Decreasing to 50 would be too extreme. decreasing to 60 would allow a basalt infusion, thus allowing Veteran+light armor+shield+Basalt to get to 2+3++against flame. Also consider, taking stampede on anything other than a warlord means not taking starfall shard, thus leaving your 500p+ model more vulnerable

    Raptor Spirit: 80p seems fair when you compare it to the other alternative, which is riding a real raptor. But again, for caiman ancient and veteran it completely fills item allowance and therefore make it unusable. What is the really scary part of this item? And if it is really that scary, why warlord never use it? Or is there a hidden skink captain with move 10 march 16 combo I don't know about? 60p is more than fair for this item.

    Baby Carno:
    Currently can be selected for 1 reason only, and that is towering presence. Until a complete overhaul, we must consider how to make it a favorable choice. It is a mistake to compare it with the Alpha. Alpha is in a completely different league (of dragons...). Baby carno is competing with young griffon, or manticore. Internally it is competing with raptor. Raptor has 2 huge advantages; 1+armor save without magic investment, and ability to join a unit (albeit not a competetive unit). for this monster that needs 100p or more defensive investment to keep survivable, AND a better choice than raptor: 180-190p for veteran and 200-230p for warlord


    Items hard to decide:
    Display Spoiler

    Tauro's Vigor: Price seems OK for what it does, +1w is huge sometimes. I would take it on a Warlord or veteran on foot or on raptor. Beta can benefit from it hugely also. Dropping it to 50p for 2+ rerollable save on beta carno wouldn't change much. Since then you are vulnerable to alchemy. However, I agree it would be autotake for anything other than alha carno in that case.


    Wildfire Burst: I think it is not the item, it is the army. This army simply lacks the synergy to make the most of this item. Maybe with FULL jungle guerilla spearback shooting + 40 bow skinks, you can get your point's worth.. I haven't seen anybody try this.

    Raptor: On the one hand I can't get over the fact it is 80p for dread elves and 120p for SA. It doesn't grant us the +1res it does to the elves. Moreover with raptor knights currently as they are, and spears everywhere we will not get a deathstar of raptors even with full raptor characters and unit. And if you run it solo you will eventually loose it or half points (if tauro's vigor). On the other hand, it still grants a lot, including 1+ armor without magic items. 10-20p drop wouldn't change much.
    For Wildfire Burst : I really really like this item. It's a little bolt to kill chaff units or finish an ennemy. BUT, It'is too expensive. You have to pay a skink and the enchantment (70+80) to have a little balista ... It's expensive. BUT, i really like the idea with the cover. But the design of this item isn't finished. There is a lack fo synergy. Wildfire Burst should give +1 bonus to hit for the shoot (to have a synergy with our shooters and the spearbacks) and give flammable to the salamandre shoot, it will be used and almost well priced

    For the Raptor, it's a shame if we compare the SA raptort price and the DE raptor price while it brings much more to the DE (+1 RES for an army supposed to be little resilient...)
    Casual french player who want the success of the 9th age in the whole world ;) !
  • Eymuster wrote:

    Wildfire Burst: I think it is not the item, it is the army. This army simply lacks the synergy to make the most of this item. Maybe with FULL jungle guerilla spearback shooting + 40 bow skinks, you can get your point's worth.. I haven't seen anybody try this.
    I did, with 3 great bow and a cuatl pyro/alch, played 3 games, it didnt went really well (0-20, 1-19, 18-2 against naked elves).

    Bows doesnt work well with either large or gigantic and I was trying to unload all on the wildfired unit so it's was a nightmare of positionning (made a sht tons of mistake myself to be fair).

    I would say it's fun to play but I don't find it efficient.

    I have had better result with only wildfire and 2/3 giant bows. It becomes quitte scary for solo chars even tho it happens to be mosly shooting on chaff.

    So all in one, I agree with your statement that is does not fit well with the army, I would rather play it cheaper without the special rule. I kind of agree with the rest of your analysis aswell.