Post ETC, what adjustments do you think would improve the army?

This site uses cookies. By continuing to browse this site, you are agreeing to our Cookie Policy.

The latest issue of the 9th Scroll is here! You can read all about it in the news.

Our beta phase is finally over. Download The Ninth Age: Fantasy Battles, 2nd Edition now!

  • Post ETC, what adjustments do you think would improve the army?

    So now that ETC is over balance adjustments are probably on their way for us and others.

    This does not mean big rules changes or opportunities to rewrite the rules for things like peasant crusaders, but instead probably means point adjustments for over/underperforming units. It does however give us the chance to look at what we have now, and what could become viable with just little tweaks to points.

    There is of course the other side of things, the might Duke is chosen more often than any other character in the list, and he’s probably a bit of a crutch for our army.

    So here are my questions for the community:

    1. What would you change to make the Might Duke less of an Auto-Include?

    2. What new combos can you see becoming available with price drops on our worst performing virtues and items?

    Please try to keep things constructive. I don’t actually know if we’ll see any price adjustments at this point, but I’d say it’s not a bad exercise to look ahead and brainstorm.






    Edit by Klexe:

    Ideas for Might duke:

    Display Spoiler

    1. Dominant on might and divine judgement
    2. Towering pressence on might if on mount with fly
    3. Reducing pegasus to max 4 models
    4. Questing oath forbids a lance as weapon
    5. Points increase duh
    6. points increase so much that you cant use an armor item (expect alchemist alloy...)
    7. Increasing the base of pegasus to 50mm (have to read the rules if this will really help but the idea was he cant join units anymore or can be targeted)
    8. skirmish for pegasus 3-4 models max
    9. Dominant on fortress and divine
    10. Banner of Roland works only for Rank and File
    11. Divine judgment grail oath only
    12. Divine judgment hippo/horse only
    13. Reworking might all together
    14. Reworking divine judgement all together

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Klexe ().

  • Ludaman wrote:



    So here are my questions for the community:

    1. What would you change to make the Might Duke less of an Auto-Include? @Klexe idea on splitting it i think is perfect. I would split them into: 1. Unsaved wounds generate more attacks (always, not just on the charge). Lance enchantment only. Then you won't be completely useless without the charge, though you'd still be relying on S4 to cause some wounds. And 2. +1 strength, AP, Attack. Melee weapon enchantment

    2. What new combos can you see becoming available with price drops on our worst performing virtues and items? Humility... no clue, its not about the price for me, its about the "i don't want this ever". Even for free its a waste because you then cannot take a strong virtue. If it were cheaper (or same? i don't even know how much it costs now because i don't care about it) but it had the rule "Can take with other virtues", then it would be great to stick a fighty character in with peasants and actually help the unit become effective.
    @
  • To be precise Marcos you mean removing the +1av/s/ap and make might a first turn only effect which doesn't matter if charge or not.

    This would reduce
    • 25% less attacks
    • Perhaps - 16% to wound
    • Perhaps - 16% to penetrate armor


    Do you see a way without rule change to make him a little bit more balanced

                    

    Product-Search

    KoE Community Support

    Lord of the Hobby

    Why are the strongest characters all bad.......
  • I think both Divine Judgement and Might could go up by 20 points each and all we’d see is 40 points disappear from somewhere else in the list. However it would make people choose between the potion of swiftness and basalt infusion, which could leave the character a bit weaker on defense which might cause some players to look elsewhere...

    ... which when combined with point drops on a couple other items might allow for some new combos to see play.

    How much cheaper do you think the Faith of Perceval would need to get before it sees regular play?
  • Mostly the reason people use the might build might (hehe) be that it is the only build that gives us a powerful tool to handle many targets.

    Instead of nerfing might into the ground, look at why the others are not interesting at all. Daring, valour, renown might look like good on paper, but daring puts us in combat without tools to win it. Valour gets to eat only champions, especially against rezzing teams. And renown is even more RNG based than the game we are already playing and either instantly destroy many targets or does nothing.

    Might is a virtue you can plan around, besides normal dice you roll you can always count on that he will be strong on the charge and weak otherwise.
    "In the end rules are just the groundwork for 2 players to have an agreement on how the game is played. If you friends/gaming group is fine with it you can do what ever you want with the game." - Smart Guy on the T9A forum

    "By the Lady, is that Elderberries I smell?" - Duke Niemar of Snowfall's Eves
  • @Ludaman Don't you think that our book is already overpriced? I mean raising points is NOT solving the issues. Doing that you just close the door to what people want to change and to what people say.

    The reason why Mighty Duke is taken all the time is because as stated already numerous of time, it's the only option viable for our Duke. And the only one that can help our knights to do some damages...

    Because it's not with a 100 points impact banner where Characters lose the rule impact (because not R&F models), or 12 attacks of knights on charge (except grail) that you will win close combat...

    So in my opinion, upgrading the points of that duke will just lead to (again) a community that will be winning and (again) for good reason since the only option management has is "points increase".

    You want to fix something, give people possibilities. Here there is 1. not even 2 JUST 1!

    An idea (that can be a fix btw) that was proposed already is to open the might virtue to other weapon. And whyn ot adjust the price depending on the weapon/enchant/duke/paladin etc...

    Or to put synergies with duke that are in a knight unit etc... Things that should have been done a long time ago (the time where the VC lord upgrades came off)

    Our lack of lists (different one) is coming from the lack of a "correct" book. In my opinion I think that before the rework of WDG and DL all books got changes and some good stuff. But the book that got the less things the less "pre-rework" was the KoE one. They almost changed nothing and just let some absurdities in the book that should have been removed.

    But again this is my opinion.
    ETC 2017 Salamanca Belgium KoE
    ETC 2018 Zagreb Belgium KoE
  • Brets wrote:

    You don’t see the might build all the time outside of ETC. It is relatively common, sure, but often taken without the multiple D3 wounds combination. My advice is to be careful not to overreact to a teams tournament format which rewards skewed builds.
    This.

    ETC is not a good testing ground for armies overall as it allows you to build a focused list. But it says alot that the only role our army has at ETC is multiple wound unit sniping and monsterslaying. No other builds are useful apparently.
    "In the end rules are just the groundwork for 2 players to have an agreement on how the game is played. If you friends/gaming group is fine with it you can do what ever you want with the game." - Smart Guy on the T9A forum

    "By the Lady, is that Elderberries I smell?" - Duke Niemar of Snowfall's Eves
  • Mmh the might build is also picked outside of etc

    137 divine
    138 might
    Out of 183 lists

    That is if we take 137 as base?


    74%... 3/4% of all major tournaments. Doesn't matter if single or team.


    I agree with most people and most high end player agree too that overall the KoE book is mostly balanced and is only surviving on some legs but this one leg is really an hard outliner.


    So don't forget overall we now nothing yet.

    But we can still try to find a solution IF we need one.
    Might divine became pre dominant when they introduced the fortress of faith as it became more reliable.

    But overall it is still just too much. This guy can remove 30 wounds from ogres quite reliable.....

    It is the same how we feel about toxic. So imo it is in our best interests to find a solution ourself.


    There are some and i personally would prefer a rework of might:

    Remove all Boni. Change it to first turn always working and with every weapon is my preferred solution.

    Next would be doing nothing

                    

    Product-Search

    KoE Community Support

    Lord of the Hobby

    Why are the strongest characters all bad.......
  • Ludaman wrote:

    This does not mean big rules changes or opportunities to rewrite the rules for things like peasant crusaders, but instead probably means point adjustments for over/underperforming units.
    I want to emphasize this.
    The update later this year will be points only.
    KoE rules are frozen.

    So while you can all come up with ideas what to change, that's reserved for the LAB where the army book will be built up from the ground again, so talking about small changes is kinda mood for that anyway.
  • logick wrote:

    @Shako Okay about point, drop all point from our book. At least 1-2 points for each things. (minimum) and we will see different build ^^.
    1) I'm not doing any point drops, I just gather data.
    2) If everything drops, the lists would still be the exact same way and just increase in powerlevel by adding a new model or two to different units.
  • As the rules and point cost are at these times, cavalry is in an ill state. that really reflect on a cavalry-based army book.
    This force KOE to go for a narrow build that relays on one specific combo. It’s not like KOE just went true ETC at top scores. That specific build just got an average result, as far as I can see.

    we are only talking point and no changes in the rules. So, Il just say, if you want to see others builds, the point cost has to go down, widely in the book.



    KOE is an army for heroic charters that’s right, but we need to be able to build a completive army that’s not only relaying on one knife, for the cut.
  • Shako wrote:

    Ludaman wrote:

    This does not mean big rules changes or opportunities to rewrite the rules for things like peasant crusaders, but instead probably means point adjustments for over/underperforming units.
    I want to emphasize this.The update later this year will be points only.
    KoE rules are frozen.

    So while you can all come up with ideas what to change, that's reserved for the LAB where the army book will be built up from the ground again, so talking about small changes is kinda mood for that anyway.
    Only if a model or a combination, a synergy or a rule is seen as so bad for the game as a whole that it has to be taken care of and it cant be repaired by points alone, than a rules change to break up the combination, synergy or rule would be possible.

    So if solving one Problem by points would bring far to much collateral and keeping the model as it is, than a nerf by ruleschange is possible.
    Of course when the army as a whole with the critch would be balanced, than the army should get higher price decreases than if the crutch would not have been touched.

    So positive rules changes? No.
    Negative rules changes only as last resort when all points could do and doing Nothing would result in more damage to the game.

    Advisary Board Member

    Workfields: Tournament Analysis, Army Community Support, Playtesting, Community Engagement, Translation/ United Nations DE Blog: Inside TA. The biggest german Tabletop Board: tabletopwelt.de
  • Let's look at this from the perspective of the framework given - points changes only, how would in particular virtue and item changes have an impact.

    Lol at arguing for across the board points reduction on the whole book - not going to happen. Nor should it.

    Of the item section, most of what they are competing against is the efficiency of Questing builds. Youd see more mace or wyrmwood if their price point looked better vs the always on Questing benefits.

    Oriflamme could do with coming down, it doesn't have much of a role currently outside of deathstar due to the high price - and deathstars tend to want other options. Room to have it on more medium size units without making them too costly would help.

    Much cheaper on Uther's and I can see dart peg or horse paladin cowboys with it becoming viable. Drop to 50 and you can run it with duskscale which might be worth keeping an eye on.

    Similarly if faith of percival drops even 5pts you can run it with basalt on a paladin - might become a build we sometimes see.

    Tabard would have to be 65 to run with basalt and I doubt well see a 20pt drop.

    I'm not sure there is a points only fix that deters people from the might Duke - without making any of the three key combo pieces (might, divine judgement, fortress of faith) unviable taken on their own. Sadly, a rules change may be needed - or else accepting making some of the items unviable. Fortress is the strongest of the 3 I feel.

    Much cheaper on Valour, as an aside, and I expect wed start seeing missile builds - already think that approach isn't far off viable.
  • Martinux wrote:

    As the rules and point cost are at these times, cavalry is in an ill state. that really reflect on a cavalry-based army book.
    I think this is somewhere between insufficiently nuanced and mostly false.

    I've run (essentially) all cavalry with WotDG and O&G (and KoE) in 2pt0, and made heavy use of (standard size) cavalry in HBE.

    The problem with cavalry is that they are costed for high skill play that gets the most out of their movement, so have the same problem as elves: very unforgiving and hard to get the most out of.
    Being supportive & giving useful criticism aren't mutually exclusive.
    Are you supportive of the project? Do your posts reflect that?

    List repository and links HERE
    Basic beginners tactics HERE
  • Klexe wrote:

    To be precise Marcos you mean removing the +1av/s/ap and make might a first turn only effect which doesn't matter if charge or not.

    This would reduce
    • 25% less attacks
    • Perhaps - 16% to wound
    • Perhaps - 16% to penetrate armor


    Do you see a way without rule change to make him a little bit more balanced
    No no, I want to split night into two virtues and remove the “first turn only” for both. But I forgot the question was for the update right? Meaning only modifying the current virtue and item including points adjustment? I don’t really care then, probably just make it more expensive or change divine judgement to a hand Weapon enchantment


    And let’s be real... the reason the might build is used is because it automatically deletes whatever it touches... the only way to stop it is to charge it or hope it fails a charge roll. It’s OP. Even if its charge only... you only need one turn per battle anyway, what monster and character is going to survive that? Even a big unit is going to lose a ton of models on that charge

    Many guys complaining about extremes in the game yet you defend this build? Stuff like that is not fun to play against