Community Brainstorm - Goblin Design Principles for LAB

This site uses cookies. By continuing to browse this site, you are agreeing to our Cookie Policy.

The latest issue of the 9th Scroll is here! You can read all about it in the news.

Our beta phase is finally over. Download The Ninth Age: Fantasy Battles, 2nd Edition now!

  • Oh you know I'm anything but a tournament player. And what happens in the other armies really don't bother me at all.

    But if I have to pay for a unit, take some time to paint it, it's not to see it flee from the field on the first or the second turn.

    And above all, to cannot use it as I should because of a bad dice roll on a Dis check.

    That's why I say that grotlings do much more for much less. That's strictly all I want to say.

    By the way, is there still many greenskinz army that used them ? (And when I say greenskinz I think about goblins only army).
  • LeVil1 wrote:

    But if I have to pay for a unit, take some time to paint it, it's not to see it flee from the field on the first or the second turn.
    ...yes but they're a low discipline army, they're supposed to have low discipline values.

    LeVil1 wrote:

    And above all, to cannot use it as I should because of a bad dice roll on a Dis check.
    If you want to never fail a discipline test "due to bad dice rolls" then you'll have to play an army that doesn't take discipline checks, because there is always the possibility to fail them for anyone that takes them....because that's how they work.


    Getting Dis7 (+1 discipline) wouldn't be too unreasonable, especially not if it's just limited to things like Rallying when they intentionally chose to flee the previous turn.
    That puts their pass rate above 50% (58% rather than 42%), but it's still fairly low overall.
  • Well I think dan is right somehow. It's so easy to lose track of the whole picture while thinking too much about some specific topic.

    Goblins are cowards and will always stay cowards. Let's accept it and just keep their cost low. I convinced that there is still room for pricing downwards in statistics for Raiders in large units.

    Still: I could imagine a magic banner providing some kind of bonus for some DIS tests being a very helpful tool in this army, providing gameplay options that are normally not viable.

    The post was edited 1 time, last by arwaker ().

  • you really like the magic banner idea lol. :P

    Giving them the option to have a magic standard would be a good idea. it would allow those larger units to get neat things like +1 Move. Maybe have the limitation that it can only be taken if the unit counts as core? (8 or more models)

    My issue with the magic banners is that you have pay more to take a standard and then pay again for some banner. Then you realize that you just doubled the cost of your unit just to have a higher chance to rally for feigned flight. that does not seem like a good idea to me.

    If you are worried about panic checks and if you are taking them as a mobile bunker. You can currently take a BSB on a wolf with a Banner a Discipline and make them immune to panic.

    I think the issue with Feigned Flight rally checks has more to do with the mechanics of Feigned Flight than Goblin leadership. I do not think Goblins should have an advantage than other armies in this. Just keep em cheap so I can take 2 units in case one fails
  • DanT wrote:

    Apologies if it came off badly re:HBE.

    My point was that every feigned flight unit wants to rally better.
    Why should gobbos get it? Why not HBE, or SE, or EoS reiters? Or if we give it to all of them, where do we stop?
    O&G are a less (relatively) disciplined faction, right?
    And if it is such a big deal, then how many points are you prepared to pay for it?
    I mean these units might be overcosted now, and might not. But if the data says they are about right, you aren't gonna get this upgrade for free.

    Units should have weaknesses and imperfections.
    And how one plays a unit should make a difference to what one gets from them.


    I mean, we could give all infantry swiftstride because they struggle to charge, and give every book march=3 x advance so that they can get into fights sooner, and give everyone quick to fire (because an archer would be able to move and shoot 6 times over the course of a battle)...
    I'm not being facetious here: all of these have been proposed by someone at some point.

    There is a reason that the EoS order gives accurate and not quick to fire: it gives the units clear strengths and weakness. Clear identity. Clear play and counterplay.

    Asking for goblins to be good at discipline is almost oxymoronic :)
    Well Reiters and Heath Riders have strengths, but Raiders dont rly

    They dont shoot well, have poor leadership so aint even reliable redirectors unless in the bubble and cant fight. They are cheaper in numbers, which would be kinda OnG but a unit of 20 Wolf Riders arent rly better than a unit of 10

    They need a shtick methinks
  • theunwantedbeing wrote:

    LeVil1 wrote:

    But if I have to pay for a unit, take some time to paint it, it's not to see it flee from the field on the first or the second turn.
    ...yes but they're a low discipline army, they're supposed to have low discipline values.

    LeVil1 wrote:

    And above all, to cannot use it as I should because of a bad dice roll on a Dis check.
    If you want to never fail a discipline test "due to bad dice rolls" then you'll have to play an army that doesn't take discipline checks, because there is always the possibility to fail them for anyone that takes them....because that's how they work.

    Getting Dis7 (+1 discipline) wouldn't be too unreasonable, especially not if it's just limited to things like Rallying when they intentionally chose to flee the previous turn.
    That puts their pass rate above 50% (58% rather than 42%), but it's still fairly low overall.
    I never ask to have dis 7 + +1 in discipline. It was two distincts ideas for me that I wrote as they came.

    But anyway, as I see it you are the second to propose me to change my army. I thought it was a community project, did I make a mistake somewhere or are we obliged to all think the same ?

    I play goblins only army since WhB and I never dream to crush the faces of my opponents. I only play a game and I think that many of you have certainly forgotten what it means. So if you want to erase my post and my user account feel free. I think that I've not my place here anymore.
  • Wesser wrote:

    Well Reiters and Heath Riders have strengths, but Raiders dont rly
    They dont shoot well, have poor leadership so aint even reliable redirectors unless in the bubble and cant fight. They are cheaper in numbers, which would be kinda OnG but a unit of 20 Wolf Riders arent rly better than a unit of 10

    They need a shtick methinks
    They are a reasonable amount cheaper than both of these units.

    But I never said don't improve them in some way, just that I don't think discipline is the way to do it.

    LeVil1 wrote:

    I never ask to have dis 7 + +1 in discipline. It was two distincts ideas for me that I wrote as they came.
    But anyway, as I see it you are the second to propose me to change my army. I thought it was a community project, did I make a mistake somewhere or are we obliged to all think the same ?

    I play goblins only army since WhB and I never dream to crush the faces of my opponents. I only play a game and I think that many of you have certainly forgotten what it means. So if you want to erase my post and my user account feel free. I think that I've not my place here anymore.
    My apologies, you seem to have taken my post the wrong way.


    I was basically just saying that discipline boosts don't feel right to me at all for goblins.
    This has nothing to do with tournaments or winning.
    Indeed, I only play casual games these days: I am absolutely here for the fun of pushing toy soldiers around.

    Perhaps you can explain why you think discipline boosts are a fitting *feel* for goblins, that way we might understand better why you want it?

    Either way, apologies again that my post came across like this.

    Being supportive & giving useful criticism aren't mutually exclusive.
    Are you supportive of the project? Do your posts reflect that?

    List repository and links HERE
    Basic beginners tactics HERE

    The post was edited 1 time, last by DanT ().

  • DanT wrote:

    Wesser wrote:

    Well Reiters and Heath Riders have strengths, but Raiders dont rly
    They dont shoot well, have poor leadership so aint even reliable redirectors unless in the bubble and cant fight. They are cheaper in numbers, which would be kinda OnG but a unit of 20 Wolf Riders arent rly better than a unit of 10

    They need a shtick methinks
    They are a reasonable amount cheaper than both of these units.

    Perhaps, but they still only useful as chaff while those other unit are both decent shot and not exactly slouches in CC either. And at DI6 they are even questionable in the chaff role. It doesn't matter that they are cheaper for additional models when additional models don't add anything to the unit

    Personal Opinion: Units such as single Eagles and VC Great Bats that are designed purely to be chaff is bad design



    But I never said don't improve them in some way, just that I don't think discipline is the way to do it.

    That's fair and I agree.


  • Wesser wrote:

    DanT wrote:

    Wesser wrote:

    Well Reiters and Heath Riders have strengths, but Raiders dont rly
    They dont shoot well, have poor leadership so aint even reliable redirectors unless in the bubble and cant fight. They are cheaper in numbers, which would be kinda OnG but a unit of 20 Wolf Riders arent rly better than a unit of 10

    They need a shtick methinks
    They are a reasonable amount cheaper than both of these units.

    Perhaps, but they still only useful as chaff while those other unit are both decent shot and not exactly slouches in CC either. And at DI6 they are even questionable in the chaff role. It doesn't matter that they are cheaper for additional models when additional models don't add anything to the unit
    Erm... are they not cheaper for the starting size too?

    I actually think it is a general issue with most fast cavalry units that they don't add much other than being chaff.
    I mean make a list of these units and I don't think goblin raiders turn out as obviously the worst, particularly once cost is taken into account.

    If you are playing right, the overwhelming majority of the time, discipline isn't a big deal for a chaff unit. Higher discipline/rallying opens up a few extra options, but absolutely doesn't make or break the unit.

    Personal Opinion: Units such as single Eagles and VC Great Bats that are designed purely to be chaff is bad design


    That is a different issue.


    Being supportive & giving useful criticism aren't mutually exclusive.
    Are you supportive of the project? Do your posts reflect that?

    List repository and links HERE
    Basic beginners tactics HERE
  • I have not read the entire thread but reacting on the last 2-3 pages, I would say that personally I could support low discipline across goblin units if our system was different. But right now it's very binary, you are either fleeing and have no control over movement, magic, shooting and combat, or you are free to do what you like, you are either caught and completely destroyed by a charging unit or suffer no losses (with the exception of dangerous terrain).
    With other aspects of the game, strength and disadvantages can be a bit more gradual or relative.
    In my opinion, under the current system, we have little room for fun with an army with low discipline and no ability to ignore discipline checks, we need at least a decent bubble.

    I would add that cowardice isn't the ultimate trait of character that I would like to see explored for goblins (if much emphasized at all), treachery, scheming, gregariousness, riskiness and chaos (in the form of a random backfire chance, hopefully on top of the effect as opposed to instead of the effect, as it feels better to destroy a bit too much of everything than lose your turn) and superstition are perhaps even more flavourful to explore to make goblins interesting in their own right.
    Having the possibility to react to maneuvers of your opponent (for example a charge reaction that would allow you to move 1 or 2"), triggering traps laid on terrain, benefitting from bonuses when you're not in line or sight could be examples of original ideas to explore within the game design. I don't know how much is feasible or not within these concepts though.
    Just my two cents.
  • New

    @Stunt this is the conversation I got a complaint about

    Hey guys as admin of the French FB page I got a complaint from Levil that there were two redtags who suggested that he better change army, have read the convo, understand the point you were trying to make, even though it might have sounded as harsh across the text.

    Apologies noted, will try and convince Levil to subscribe back on this forum. .

    Have a good day :p
    GHAÂAÂAÂARN ! — The Black Goat of the Woods with a Thousand Young
    First T9A player in West Africa
  • New

    Ghiznuk wrote:

    @Stunt this is the conversation I got a complaint about

    Hey guys as admin of the French FB page I got a complaint from Levil that there were two redtags who suggested that he better change army, have read the convo, understand the point you were trying to make, even though it might have sounded as harsh across the text.

    Apologies noted, will try and convince Levil to subscribe back on this forum. .

    Have a good day :p
    Sure you post in correct thread? I see no connection.
  • New

    My two cents about this conversation.

    people have pointed out the weakness of Feigned Flight .

    There was a time when a musician gave you a +1 bonus to rally.
    With transition to Ninth Age that bonus got scrapped, which impacted much more the lower Dis units.
    Cuz there's not much difference between Dis 8 or 9, but a lot from 6 to 7.

    Also I do feel Feigned Flight, which is a voluntary action, should get bonus such as minimised roll for rally or something (or autorally).
    Else it's really hard to play and only useful on some units / armies.
    Goblins are trickier than elves they should be able to use such tactics easily.
    Very appreciate @Shlagrabak s comment here above
    GHAÂAÂAÂARN ! — The Black Goat of the Woods with a Thousand Young
    First T9A player in West Africa
  • New

    Kind of a weird thought but what about redesigning goblins as "the cheap crappy low dis unit that can take neat pseudo characters in the unit".

    Just like shady gits maybe you can take 1 or 2 subchieftans per x number of goblins who provide some kind of morale bonus (dis 7 or minimized roll?). maybe each special entry provides some kind of stacking bonus?

    The idea is goblins are numerous and deadly but only when competently lead - kill the leaders and they're not at all intimidating.

    I like the idea of goblin trappers too, which provide some kind of utility, or maybe a large unit that packs punch similar to the vermin swarm grinder thing. possibly trolls embedded in the unit like caimans in skinks?

    so you would have a single goblin entry with all the various options and then also options for every Y number of goblins in the unit you can take X number of special characters be they shady gits, mad gits, subchieftans, trackers, trolls etc.
  • New

    As discussed previously:

    Orcs and Goblins both at 6 dis base.

    Orcs get special rule:

    Not Done Fightin'
    Units with a majority of models with this rule gain a +1 bonus to Panic and Break tests.

    This makes Orcs worse at other Dis tests than now, notably rally, march and fear tests but removes any need for further "unruly" effects.


    Goblins get special rule:

    Opportunistic Cowards
    Units with a majority of models with this rule gain a +1 bonus to Rally.

    This solves a lot of problems with low dis goblin armies in general (mandatory crown(s) are stupid). Still easy to panic and break, but more likely to rally and come back again. Maybe something to make them harder to catch as well.

    Replace +1 with minimized role if the effect should be bigger.