Point adjustment suggestions for autumn update

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  • Point adjustment suggestions for autumn update

    @Hachiman Taro @CariadocThorne
    @SmithF, @Bogi feel free to tag anyone else


    Should we as a community make a proposal to the people in charge of point adjustments in this autumn update in order to try to achieve a better external and internal balance? I think it could be a good idea and could complement the results of the survey just concluded for all armies. I saw something similar in other communities as well.

    This is my take on it:

    Kindreds

    Shapeshifter: -30 p
    Wild hunter: + 20 p
    Pathfinder: -10P
    Forest guardian: -10p
    Blade dancer: -10p

    Aspects of nature

    Scarred bark: fine
    Toxic spore: -5p
    Entangling wines: -10p
    Oaken crown: fine

    Magic items

    Life seed: -25 p
    Bough of wyscan: -25p
    Shielding bark: -15p
    All banners: -10p
    Mist walker: -45p
    Sacred seed: -15p
    Horn of the wild hunt: -40p
    Glyph of armil: -15p
    Drums of cenyrn: -15p
    Hunters honor, spirit of the whirlwind, curse of black stag, hail shot: fine

    Characters

    Unicorn: -25p
    Aon: -20p
    Sheperd: +20
    All the rest is fine

    Core

    Forest guards: -10 points and -1ppm
    Archers: -10 points and -1ppm
    Heath riders: fine
    Heath hunters: + 3ppm
    Dryads: +20 and +1ppm, skirmish for free

    Special

    Forest rangers: -20 p or alternative -1ppm, in any case -2ppm for vanguard
    Blade dancers: -20p and +5ppm
    Wild huntsmen: - 20 p, -5ppm, no additional cost for blades
    Kestrel knights: -10 p, -10ppm

    UA

    Maidens: -20p and - 5ppm
    Sentinels: +10p
    Pathfinders: -30p and - 5ppm

    Last but not least let’s not forget the -5ppm on additional eagles which comes for free every update. :)
  • Chack wrote:

    How come that Heath Riders are fine and Kestrel Knights need a discount ? honest question, apart from hypotetic core tax i can't see how these two things can be both true.

    -40 on the Horn is probably too much, i get the big opportunity cost of having a character carrying it, but at 20 point it would be pretty strong
    Heath riders are fine mainly because they are a cheap and fast core scoring unit. They are core so they need to pay a bit of a price for that even if they are squishy.

    Kestrels have seen less and less play in competitive environment because they are too expensive compared to trees (which imho are priced in a fair way). That is why I see them dropping in starting price, simply internal balance. The additional discount in ppm is due to the fact that they basically never see play in more than 4 strong units so it could open up for some different approaches.

    Horn has a sort of one time and situational marginal effect since:

    - the charges that really matter in a game are 1 or maybe 2 on average
    - we have high initiative so we can often take a charge after having failed it
    - that charge which really matters may not be failed so you may pay for an object you never use
    - 8” is very short distance for an object like this

    I honestly wouldn’t take it at 20 points either since there are way better artifacts in the RB.
  • Overreaction

    Im with @nantuko about magic items apart from Life Seed (need even bigger discount) and Banner of Silent Mists (dont need discount)

    Also agree Skirmish on Dryads should be free and FG could stand to be a point cheaper for additional models, while Dryads could be a tand more expensive. Oh and the Unicorn cheaper makes sense too

    But thats about it. Pretty much every SE unit is in a pretty good spot and playable and with that the case who rock the boat too much? Maybe tweaks could be made to get a bit more balance between the Thicket beast usage compared to other special choices, but...

    Rly all SE needs Short term is realistic pricing of the magic items
  • Wesser wrote:

    Overreaction

    Im with @nantuko about magic items apart from Life Seed (need even bigger discount) and Banner of Silent Mists (dont need discount)

    Also agree Skirmish on Dryads should be free and FG could stand to be a point cheaper for additional models, while Dryads could be a tand more expensive. Oh and the Unicorn cheaper makes sense too

    But thats about it. Pretty much every SE unit is in a pretty good spot and playable and with that the case who rock the boat too much? Maybe tweaks could be made to get a bit more balance between the Thicket beast usage compared to other special choices, but...

    Rly all SE needs Short term is realistic pricing of the magic items
    No overreaction actually, You need to see at the bigger picture here. Thicket beasts are fairly good balanced externally and if you mess around with them they will become either too strong or too weak. Starting from this assumption all the other units in special should become cheaper to promote internal balance otherwise they will never see play over thicket beasts.
  • nantuko wrote:

    Wesser wrote:

    Overreaction

    Im with @nantuko about magic items apart from Life Seed (need even bigger discount) and Banner of Silent Mists (dont need discount)

    Also agree Skirmish on Dryads should be free and FG could stand to be a point cheaper for additional models, while Dryads could be a tand more expensive. Oh and the Unicorn cheaper makes sense too

    But thats about it. Pretty much every SE unit is in a pretty good spot and playable and with that the case who rock the boat too much? Maybe tweaks could be made to get a bit more balance between the Thicket beast usage compared to other special choices, but...

    Rly all SE needs Short term is realistic pricing of the magic items
    No overreaction actually, You need to see at the bigger picture here. Thicket beasts are fairly good balanced externally and if you mess around with them they will become either too strong or too weak. Starting from this assumption all the other units in special should become cheaper to promote internal balance otherwise they will never see play over thicket beasts.
    Thats just power creep. SE units are all decent and have niches that dont make any unit redundant. Some are more used than others and some are a bit too RPS in terms of Price/ability, but I dont Think its worth rocking the boat over Per-LAB.

    Its not like minor points changes will solve the bigger RPS- related issues anyway, so who risk creating new problems

    Nay, just solve the easy problem. SE characters are some of the most standardized characters in the game, party due to kindreds having tonnes of in-built restrictions and party due to magic items that are really interesting, but pointed after Best case rather than average case utility. Well except Life-Seed Feathers which was probably pointed as “mobile bolt thrower hitting on 2+” instead of what it actually is. Honestly it is a 30 points item as it really isnt good enough to dedicate a character to considering you use up your magic item slot
  • I am going with @Wesser, for a small update in point costs without causing too much struggle, the pricing of the magic items and maybe kindreds would do the trick for a start. there are simply some items (especially our bows) that are just not used.

    maybe a pathfinder champion or a wild huntsmen champion etc. should be allowed a small budget for magic items? depending on the unit 25-50 points? and if not via champion, drums of cenyrn and horn of the wild hunt would be a nice upgrade to a musician, which would be unique among the armies. maybe also treesinging should be upgradeable on some musicians, and then why not the possibility for mist walkers mirror too? maybe there is a pool of items from which 2 are allowed to be chosen or something similar...

    Horn of the wild hunt should be increased in its range, maybe 12 or 15 inches? then it is a absolute yes please item!!! drums of cenyrn has not too many options in which unit it is used, and there are so much better options for characters. nobody will use it on a fighty chieftain, as the only viable combo is with either spirit of the whirlwind, or heroes heart. and you didn't buy a save yet. actually the only place i can imagine that item is on one of the shapeshifters in a shifter party, or a blade dancer lord (which has better options too)



    In general: well I think for some cases some kind of special saves against ranged damage is needed. Maybe only for one/two turns or something, but that would do it in my opinion... or that the saves appear with massed magic missiles. So seasonal themes or restrictions would be cool here... when there are more trees, there are no saves, some more restrictions in artefacts etc.
    Or maybe let druids also have the option to join a kindred? maybe the type of leader should open/ restrict some unit slots? - have a look into our homebrew "deep forest book", really cool work!!!


    I think that banner of silent mists is a great start, but hey, why do beast herds get that dark rain thing? can't we have some magical fog too? Or something with a marker, so not all the army is protected, but some part may advance in protection.
    I am asking myself always, why we have the focus on movement in the army, and still there are so many other fractions much faster or with more scouts and vanguard than us... ambush from forest, oh wait, we can't do that. scouting cavalry, oh we wait, woodelves can't have it. nearly your complete army vanguarding, ah, that's what dwarves got....

    It is okay, that elves are squishy, but if you want your list to be in the front slots of competition you have to take thicket beasts, no real option around them, and if you take them, you take a shepherd bsb of course, ans if you take a shepherd, of course you are gonna need divination magic.... and, as divination is really high casting values, you surely go for an ancient... and so on.
  • @jpeg unfortunately this update is likely to be points only so redesign will have to wait for LAB. Good ideas though mate!


    @nantuko and @CariadocThorne @Hachiman Taro , do we know if this is a meta tweak price change? If it’s going to be a regular annual (bi-annual?) tweaking then likely we can get an adjustment or two for the current MM heavy meta.

    Meta based tweaks:
    Basically all archers and the Wild Hunters get a small price reduction as they are most vulnerable to MM and large blocks.


    Internal Balance:
    I feel like a couple of different units could see decent sized reductions without breaking us. The rest maybe slight as per first post:

    Briar Maidens - I actually feel the Conclave Champ is the main offender here, not the unit cost. Drop that cost by 40pts and these may start popping up more. Not sure if that has knock-on to other Conclave Champs though as that cost used to be standard.

    Kestrels - having split the two styles badly impacted their utility. Big drop to starting cost and additional models also. No charge for upgrades as losing shooting to gain armour is about even.

    Agree with Nantuko/Wesser assessment re our Items.
    "The combination of lemon and habenero peppers was confusing to me. I will pay for this tomorrow i think." - Rosanjin Scholar, Iron Chef
  • Wesser wrote:

    Overreaction

    Im with @nantuko about magic items apart from Life Seed (need even bigger discount) and Banner of Silent Mists (dont need discount)

    Also agree Skirmish on Dryads should be free and FG could stand to be a point cheaper for additional models, while Dryads could be a tand more expensive. Oh and the Unicorn cheaper makes sense too

    But thats about it. Pretty much every SE unit is in a pretty good spot and playable and with that the case who rock the boat too much? Maybe tweaks could be made to get a bit more balance between the Thicket beast usage compared to other special choices, but...

    Rly all SE needs Short term is realistic pricing of the magic items
    Out of curiosity,how many game have you played with SE in the last...lets say 2 months?
    Now I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds- elf hero on foot 2016
  • N3okorrales wrote:

    Wesser wrote:

    Overreaction

    Im with @nantuko about magic items apart from Life Seed (need even bigger discount) and Banner of Silent Mists (dont need discount)

    Also agree Skirmish on Dryads should be free and FG could stand to be a point cheaper for additional models, while Dryads could be a tand more expensive. Oh and the Unicorn cheaper makes sense too

    But thats about it. Pretty much every SE unit is in a pretty good spot and playable and with that the case who rock the boat too much? Maybe tweaks could be made to get a bit more balance between the Thicket beast usage compared to other special choices, but...

    Rly all SE needs Short term is realistic pricing of the magic items
    Out of curiosity,how many game have you played with SE in the last...lets say 2 months?
    Not many. I don't get to play all that much, and kinda feel obliged to play VC when I have the time.. in fact my game next Saturday will be first with SE (realtime not UB) for quite a while.

    But I don't feel the army is in a bad spot at all and what issues there are isn't on unit level
  • I think @Wesser has an important point. He didn't say that SE are fine and don't need changes, he said that minor price tweaks won't fix the real problems with SE, and dropping prices all over the place to try and fix something which isn't a pricing problem is just likely to create other problems, and hurt us more in the long run.

    If we suddenly become OP in every match where the enemy DOESN'T have pyromancy or whatever, and reaonably matched against people who do have pyromancy, it's just going to mask the real problem and get us hit with a bunch of nerfs in the future. That will just set us back in the process of incremental changes to get us priced correctly.

    Instead, we need to suck up the extreme RPS for now, and not try to throw pricing fixes at a design problem. There are already areas where pricing really could help, especially our items. Briar Maidens might benefit from a pricing adjustment (although I'm not convinced it'll help enough), Dryads could benefit from making skirmish a free option, while FG and (to a lesser extent) SA could be brought more in line with the no-core-tax ethos of the newer books, which might also help make FG competitive against Dryads
  • Hey all!

    While I am enjoying the current SE book quite a bit, it still has it's flaws. For me it's primarily related to the narrowed themes and extreme streamlining process the book has had over these last few years. But since this is a points update those concerns will not be addressed at this time. So with that being said, barring the special items section and a few standout entries I don't think the internal balance of the book is particularly bad. Externally the usual suspects are causing the army some grief but I don't think points adjustments are going to solve the issue entirely, and instead they risk furthering the RPS nature of the army, but on the other hand some adjustments could go a long way to making certain builds more viable in the current meta. While I agree with the sentiment that playing with points too much could affect design decisions come time for the LAB, we have no idea when that time will come. I personally don't wish to wait a number of years for meaningful changes to occur for some of the more problematic aspects of the army. I feel the army is still lagging behind many others design-wise since it had to play catch-up with multiple issues from the 1.2-1.3 time period.


    Here are some points adjustments that I personally believe would help with some current balance issues


    Kindreds:
    Shapeshifter 100 --> 75
    This guy is forced to compete with Eagle Riders & Wild Hunters and comes up short in the majority of cases, a points decrease would support better internal balance.


    Pathfinder 60 --> 50
    After purchasing equipment and the base character a pathfinder is still a very expensive choice when compared to simply buying more archers.


    Aspects of Nature:
    Scarred Bark 80 --> 60
    A Dryad Ancient with Scarred Bark is a uncommon selection, especially if compared to similar characters from other books who are far more flexible & cheaper.


    Toxic Spores 65 --> 50
    The effect is too expensive for the impact it gives to a unit outside of RNG spikes.


    Entangling Vines 60 --> 50
    A rarely seen upgrade


    Oaken Crown 20 --> 10
    Only gives half of the effects of a Musician for the full price, as well as having an opportunity cost of denying the character access to the other Aspects.


    Special Items:
    Lifeseed Feathers 85 --> 40
    Conflicts deeply with the armies design as well as it's own base item the Sylvan Longbow and is a very strong candidate for being replaced. Since this update is for purely points adjustments a deep discount could open up new character builds to give this item a chance to see some play.


    Bough of Wyscan 55 --> 40
    Too expensive for its effect, again a points reduction opens up new builds.


    Spirit of the Whirlwind 55 --> 50
    This item competes and fails to match up with Heroes Heart in most cases. A small reduction opens up new character builds.

    Shielding Bark 65 --> 55
    While the items effects aren't particularly bad it's limitations for who can take it limit its potential. By lowering its cost it may see some play when combined with other item changes.


    Predator Pennant 50 --> 40
    Faces stiff competition from BrB banners and Hunters Honour for the units that would be interested in it. A slight decrease may help.


    Banner of Silent Mist 40 --> 30
    Has a hidden tax of taking a Standard Bearer for units who normally wouldn't want one. A points decrease helps alleviate this somewhat.


    Mist Walker's Mirror 75 --> 50
    Taking this item currently gimps most character builds for a super situational and risky effect. Making it cheap enough to be either combined with the sacred seeds on hero level characters as well as not ruin the item build for lord level characters could help this item see more play.


    Sacred Seeds 65 --> 50
    For the same reasons as Mist Walkers Mirror


    Hail Shot 70 --> 60
    Incredibly RNG heavy, a small discount could open up new builds with the other changes already suggested.


    Horn of the Wild Hunt 60 --> 35
    Far too expensive for a utility item, the current price ruins a character build. A steep discount helps this item to slot into empty space on a character.


    Glyph of Amryl 45 --> 35
    A discount opens up some build possibilities with the other changes already recommended.


    Drums of Cenyrn 40 --> 35
    Same as the Horn of the Wild Hunt.


    Characters:
    Forest Prince:
    - Great Elk Mount; 100 --> 120
    The Wild Hunter Prince on an elk is likely a little too good for its points and out competes the Eagle King & Shapeshifter in most cases. A points increase is likely warranted.


    - Eagle King Mount; 130 --> 120
    A slight decrease to make it a more competitive selection.


    - Elven Horse Mount; 50 --> 40
    Rarely seen and beaten out by the Elk in most cases. A slight decrease is warranted.


    Chieftain:
    - Eagle King Mount; 140 --> 100
    The Chieftain doesn't have enough special item allowance to make this a truly fearsome choice. A large points decrease coupled with the item changes could help this option see more play


    - Elven Horse Mount; 50 --> 40
    Rarely seen and beaten out by the Elk in most cases. A slight decrease is warranted.


    Druid:
    - Sylvan Unicorn Mount; 75 --> 50
    Very poor synergy with the rest of the army and requires a precious artefact slot to fully utilize it's rules.


    - Elven Horse Mount; 30 --> 25
    Has poor synergy with the rest of the army and only one bunker unit that it doesn't impede.


    - Dragon Mount; 440 --> 410
    A TFA tends to do most of the things that this guy wants to do more efficiently. A niche selection.


    Thicket Shepard:
    Base Cost; 250 --> 270
    A highly selected choice, this change combined with others may help Chieftain BsB's regain their footing.


    Core:
    Forest Guard:
    Starting unit size 15 models --> 20 models
    Base Cost; 175 --> 225
    Additional Models; 15ppm --> 14ppm
    Sylvan Blades & Forest Cloak; 1ppm --> 0ppm
    By increasing the minimum unit size to 20 we can give more models the starting points cost discount. This is further reinforced by lowering the price for additional models. Sylvan Blades tend to be worse than spears in most cases, making them a free swap may help them appear in more lists.


    Sylvan Archers:
    Base Cost; 265 --> 250
    Additional Models; 24ppm --> 25ppm
    Both big and small units are equally viable for different reasons. This points adjustment reflects this.


    Heath Riders:
    Base Cost; 180 --> 175
    Additional Models; 32ppm --> 30ppm
    A slight decrease to help make bigger units more viable and to compete with Dryads in the scoring dart role.


    Dryads:
    Base Cost; 150 --> 170
    Additional Models; 18ppm --> 20ppm
    Skirmish; 4ppm --> 0ppm
    Could use a slight increase, they are currently our standout core unit due to being slightly under costed and far more resilient than competing options. Skirmish upgrade isn't particularly useful at the moment since scoring is hard to come by in most SE lists, a points decrease is needed for the upgrade but will likely still result in a low selection rate.


    Special:
    Forest Rangers:
    Base Cost; 210 --> 200
    Additional Models; 20ppm --> 18ppm
    Vanguard & +1 Adv; 3ppm --> 2ppm
    Suffers slightly from RPS syndrome, a slight points decrease could help with resilience /per points spent.


    Wild Huntsmen:
    Base Cost; 300 --> 275
    Additional Models; 55ppm --> 45ppm
    Sylvan Blades; 1ppm --> 0ppm
    Very RPS'y. A decent sized discount could help them compete with Kestrel Knights. A large points decrease for additional models could encourage bigger units to help mitigate ranged damage. Sylvan Blades are worse than Sylvan Lances in most builds and should be free.


    Kestrel Knights:
    Sylvan Longbows & Skirmisher; 2ppm --> 0ppm
    Skirmishers & Bow upgrade makes the unit worse in most cases and should be free.


    Unseen Arrows:
    Briar Maidens:
    Base Cost; 200 --> 185
    Champion; 120 --> 100
    In need of a large design change, but since that won't happen more points adjustments will have to do. Conclave spell choices are under powered compared to what other conclaves can gain and the Champion should be cheaper because of this.


    Sylvan Sentinels:
    Base Cost; 160 --> 165
    Sylvan Blades; 3ppm --> 1ppm
    Scout; 3ppm --> 2ppm
    Minimum sized units may be sightly under costed compared to other options in the book. Upgrades are rarely taken and are likely over costed.


    Pathfinders:
    Additional Models; 50ppm --> 45ppm
    Over costed for most match ups, very RPS'y. Typically this unit sees more play than it should due to being the armies iconic unit.


    Hope this helps,
    Cheers!
    A Sylvan Elves Homebrew Full Army Book - last updated September 26, 2019

    The post was edited 1 time, last by funkyfellow ().

  • I'm not really fan of "increasing points for the entries that work well" effect to improve other entries.
    It will just kill the pleasure of those who like to play with those well working entries (Thicket sheperd, thicket beast, Wildhunter Prince and Sentinels).
    Those entries are good were they are right now. Increasing their cost will just create frustration for those who like to play them (and I am part of them).

    Why would you need to increase their cost ? I really don't understand. However, I totally agree with the cost decrease for other units. Especially the Briar Maidens, Forest Guard and Forest Rangers.
  • Galdenos wrote:

    I'm not really fan of "increasing points for the entries that work well" effect to improve other entries.
    It will just kill the pleasure of those who like to play with those well working entries (Thicket sheperd, thicket beast, Wildhunter Prince and Sentinels).
    Those entries are good were they are right now. Increasing their cost will just create frustration for those who like to play them (and I am part of them).

    Why would you need to increase their cost ? I really don't understand. However, I totally agree with the cost decrease for other units. Especially the Briar Maidens, Forest Guard and Forest Rangers.

    Some general comments (with no specific reference to SE, the current SE pricing or this update)
    I don't know what the project is planning for this update.

    In general I sympathise with focussing on buffs over nerfs, and advocated this internally when staff.

    However, zero nerfs is power creep.
    Trivially, buffs only cannot reduce the external power level of a book.
    The only question is how much the buffs increase it by. In some cases it will be minimal, in others not so much.


    Partly then, the solution chosen should depend on the goals.
    In principle, some targeted increases in some areas allows for greater decreases in others.
    This can result in a greater level of internal balance being achieved whilst keeping the same level of external balance as if the price increases had not occurred.


    Just to reiterate, I'm saying nothing specific about SE or this update, or what the project might do.
    I just thought I would explain in general why points increases can be an important part of the changes, even on underperforming books.


    For the record, if I was supreme overlord of the world, my view would be to balance to tier 2, even though it is not the middle. But that is a separate discussion.
    Being supportive & giving useful criticism aren't mutually exclusive.
    Are you supportive of the project? Do your posts reflect that?

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  • I’m with @DanT here, we need some nerfs as well also to promote internal balance and that’s why sentinels, dryads and thicket sheperd should go up in price. Many of the point reductions i suggested above are to promote a wider selection of units during list building. An example over all is thicket beasts over all elven elite infantry.

    Thicket beasts hit hard enough, have an inbuilt BSB, are stubborn and super resilient and despite all of that they are externally balanced.

    Why should I then select elven elite infantry over thicket beasts? In this update there are no design changes allowed so the only solution is to decrease their point cost so that they can compete internally with thicket beasts. If we increased only the thicket beasts cost they wouldn’t be externally balanced anymore even though other units may be selected. So as long as we don’t get a new FAB the only solution is to make underused units cheaper even though very cheap rangers and dancers may seem eventually too cheap.

    All that said, we have been proven to be a low tier army so i’m even more convinced that we need something similar to what I proposed above.
  • As to the point changes above... I'm not really sure. On first glance they look OK, maybe not the wild hunter kindred. Not sure why all kindred upgrades as so expensive.

    Dryads are a bit cheap compared to other infantry choices however I feel all infantry choices need to be a bit cheaper and more. All core infantry in all books has been relegeted to one role and that is scoring, with no secondary like in the old days they would have no role at all. Does the inclusion secondary objective fill in inadequacies in the core rules?

    I'm also not sure about the heath rides going up in price, I have been finding them relatively useless.

    The news section stated that used options go up, not used does down. Blanked fire for all. Tiers simply decide how much down or up. What in our army does then need to go up?
    Most used is the bsb option, I'm guessing from 50pts to 75? Second most used option would be a master mage? I'm guessing that goes up in points as well.

    On a more serious note I'm guessing some price changes to thickets might be appropriate, in reality it can be very tough facing 18 of them with certain armies.
    Kestrels will probably see a price hike even if they seem below par to me. Mobility is not really priced enough today anyway and they have been seeing use.
    Apart from that there is nothing that has been used consistently in top performing lists?


    Again magic items need a quick redisign more then price changes and with that can breed new options into our list relatively simply. I don't think some will be taken even if free, maybe negative points might help some but even then I doubt it.