Results of tournament army list data collection exercise

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  • Thanks Dan, I will consider it.

    Here are the last few charts. Firstly, the Death from Above section. Git launchers still well ahead of the Splatterer with an average of virtually 1 per list. The Overseer upgrade though seems like it is very well pointed as it is used roughly 50% of the time.

    Artillery.png

    Next, a slightly confusing graph on the monsters. There are 2 bars for the giant as the weapon options are not mutually exclusive with the Bigger Brother upgrade. So what you can see is that the Gargantula is still the most popular monster, but not by a huge amount. Giants are normally armed with clubs, the other options are taken but fairly infrequently. In terms of size the regular giant is about 3 times more popular than the bigger brother. The GGI is the least used but in part I think this is because it suffers much more from diminishing returns so it is much less common to have double GGI whilst double Giant or Gargantula is much more common. The BSB option is again in just the right spot with about 50% of lists choosing the upgrade.

    Monsters.png

    Lastly is the units that are the most spammed i.e. they have the highest average number per list. It obviously favours cheap units that are easier to spam but is potentially still a useful piece of information:


    UnitAverage Frequency per List
    Scrap Wagon2.14
    Skewerer2.09
    Big Gnasher Herds1.84
    Gnasher Wrecking Teams1.80
    Git Launchers1.77
    Orc Boar Chariots1.68
    Small Gnasher Herds1.62
    Giants1.61
    Small Units of Gnasher Dashers1.50
    Small Units of Goblin Wolf Chariots1.50
    Small Units of Feral Orcs1.48

    If there is anything that I have missed or that people want to see let me know and I'll see if it is possible.
  • So, based on the data collected and the results above I have put my predictions below for what the points adjustments will be when we get our update later in the year:

    Firstly the units:

    UnitStarting SizePrice per model
    Common Orcs crossbow upgrade-1
    Eadbashers-10-1
    Eadbashers - Feral upgrade+1
    Orc Boar Riders-1
    Orc Boar Riders - Feral upgrade+1
    Orc Boar Riders - Paired Weapons upgrade-1
    Goblins - Shady Gits-1
    Orc Boar Chariot-5
    Mounted Eadbashers-1
    Goblin Raiders-1
    Goblin Raiders - Common upgrade+1
    Goblin Raiders - Bows-1
    Wolf Chariots+5+5
    Gnasher Dashers-5-2
    Gnasher Herd+1
    Trolls-15
    Grotlings-1
    Git Launcher+5
    Splatterer-5
    Gargantula+5
    Gargantula - Web Launcher-10
    Great Green Idol-5
    Giant-5
    Giant - Club+5
    Giant - Wrecking Ball-10

  • And the also the characters:


    CharacterRaceUpgradePoints
    Orc WarlordCommon-10
    Orc WarlordFeralWyvern-10
    Orc WarlordIron+5
    Orc WarlordIronWyvern-10
    Orc WarlordIronBoar+5
    Orc WarlordIronChariot-10
    Orc ChiefCommon-10
    Orc ChiefCommonBoar-5
    Orc ChiefFeralBoar-5
    Orc ChiefFeralWyvern-20
    Orc ChiefIron+5
    Orc ChiefIronBoar-5
    Orc ChiefIronWyvern-20
    Orc ShamanCommon+5
    Orc ShamanCommonBoar-5
    Orc ShamanCommonChariot+5
    Orc ShamanCommonWyvern-5
    Orc ShamanFeralBoar-5
    Orc ShamanFeralWyvern-5
    Goblin KingCommon-10
    Goblin KingCave-10
    Goblin KingForest-10
    Goblin KingForestHuntsman Spider+10
    Goblin KingForestGargantula+10
    Goblin WitchdoctorCommonChariot+5
    Goblin WitchdoctorCave-10
    Goblin WitchdoctorForestGargantula-20

    In addition to this all bows on characters to come down by 2 points.
    The Warcry upgrade to come down by 10 points on Orc Chiefs, Goblin Chiefs and Goblin Witchdoctors
    The Bigwing upgrade to come down by 10 points (to zero!) on all Wyverns
  • First of all, thank you for all the effort you put into this, really.

    I just have a few observations about your “predictions”:

    1) Most of your suggestions are making things 1 or 5 points cheaper/more expensive. I am sorry but that’s not gonna change anything, units like orcs with crossbows are gonna suck at 295 or at 275 points, because the problem is not just the points, is the minimum size and the huge footprint.

    2) Making the ferals more expensive is not gonna make the army better. We should work the other way, and try to make common orcs more appealing. And the problem again, in my opinion, is not the Price.

    3) Even if it’s 5 points, please stop making the Gargantula more expensive. Is it a good monster? Yes is it expensive? YES
    Making the most used units more expensive is not going to fix the internal balance.

    4) the War Cry upgrade should be free for those characters with leadership 7 or less, like goblin chiefs or wizards. If someone want to make them the General, great, get it for free.

    Right now we are in a good spot I think, but the few over costed units we have (wyvern, Gnasher dashers, splatterer, Gargantula as a Wizard mount and giant with wrecking ball) need or a redesign (Wrecking ball giant pleaseee) or a big discount. Otherwise they will stay on the shelf getting dust.
  • Rubert wrote:

    1) Most of your suggestions are making things 1 or 5 points cheaper/more expensive. I am sorry but that’s not gonna change anything
    People say things like this a lot.
    Have you tracked e.g. gnasher herd prices and usage over time?
    It is quite fascinating.
    Being supportive & giving useful criticism aren't mutually exclusive.
    Are you supportive of the project? Do your posts reflect that?

    List repository and links HERE
    Basic beginners tactics HERE
  • DanT wrote:

    People say things like this a lot.
    Have you tracked e.g. gnasher herd prices and usage over time?
    It is quite fascinating.
    Could you make a small retrospective about this please ? Is there any rule change relating to the gnashers during the same time your observations took place ?

    I think it doesn't necessarily make sense to compare each unit on a one for one basis, because some units may have become popular since an increase in price of a competing (in the mind of the players) unit.

    Nevertheless I think (like us all) that gnasher is a competing unit because of an initiative rank of 4 (and two attacks Off/Def 4, S5 by model, yes I agree with that too) which is one of the best in an O&G army.
  • Rubert wrote:

    First of all, thank you for all the effort you put into this, really.

    I just have a few observations about your “predictions”:

    1) Most of your suggestions are making things 1 or 5 points cheaper/more expensive. I am sorry but that’s not gonna change anything, units like orcs with crossbows are gonna suck at 295 or at 275 points, because the problem is not just the points, is the minimum size and the huge footprint.

    I agree that the problem with some units is not just the points but I don’t know whether wider changes will be made in the next update so for my ‘predictions’ I only changed points.


    I disagree that small points changes won’t make a difference, especially when the top and bottom performers are both tweaked to bring them closer together.


    2) Making the ferals more expensive is not gonna make the army better. We should work the other way, and try to make common orcs more appealing. And the problem again, in my opinion, is not the Price.

    It’s not very clear from my table but feral eadbashers are pretty much the same price. I dropped the main eadbasher price by 1 and increased the feral upgrade by 1 to leave them at more or less the same price, but common eadbashers are cheaper, especially in small units.



    3) Even if it’s 5 points, please stop making the Gargantula more expensive. Is it a good monster? Yes is it expensive? YES
    Making the most used units more expensive is not going to fix the internal balance.

    My predictions were just based on the data and due to it being one of the most frequently used units a 5 point increase would be in line with other units that were selected as much. The other monsters were also made slightly cheaper so hopefully this would have enough of an effect on balance.



    4) the War Cry upgrade should be free for those characters with leadership 7 or less, like goblin chiefs or wizards. If someone want to make them the General, great, get it for free.

    You may well be right about what needs to happen but I don’t think it will happen



    Right now we are in a good spot I think, but the few over costed units we have (wyvern, Gnasher dashers, splatterer, Gargantula as a Wizard mount and giant with wrecking ball) need or a redesign (Wrecking ball giant pleaseee) or a big discount. Otherwise they will stay on the shelf getting dust.


    maybe they do need a redesign but a but not a big points drop, a lot of those things you list do appear in various tournament lists already and dropping the points significantly could potentially cause them to be become quite skewed. I know if splatterers got much cheaper they would be close to auto include in my lists.
  • LeVil1 wrote:

    Could you make a small retrospective about this please ? Is there any rule change relating to the gnashers during the same time your observations took place ?
    I think it doesn't necessarily make sense to compare each unit on a one for one basis, because some units may have become popular since an increase in price of a competing (in the mind of the players) unit.

    Nevertheless I think (like us all) that gnasher is a competing unit because of an initiative rank of 4 (and two attacks Off/Def 4, S5 by model, yes I agree with that too) which is one of the best in an O&G army.
    (Some details below, but this is far from being a comprehensive or rigorous account)
    In the last update gnasher herds received a 1pt drop because they were barely used.

    Now, many O&G players (and their opponents) are saying that gnasher herds are one of the best things in the book, and maybe too good for their points.

    I believe that the complete list of points changes in the last update was:
    Display Spoiler

    trolls start 180 (-10)
    - additional 70 (-2)
    gnasher wrecking team 140 (-10)
    great green idol 365 (-20)
    scrap wagon 85 (-5)
    gnasher herd start 120 (-10)
    - additional 12 (-1)
    Giant wrecking ball 20 (-5)
    Orc Boar Chariot 150 (-5)
    Goblin King - Gargantula 410 (-30)
    Goblin Witchdoctor Gargantula 500 (-10)








    Of course, gnashers are just one example.
    Interestingly I believe it was before this last update that people were saying they couldn't be fixed by points.

    Another instructive example is to look at OK from the same update, who were performing badly and are now much higher in the tier list.
    The total amount of discounts they received was not that high.


    Balance in t9a is very close by any reasonable historical measure, so small points changes really can make a difference.
    Being supportive & giving useful criticism aren't mutually exclusive.
    Are you supportive of the project? Do your posts reflect that?

    List repository and links HERE
    Basic beginners tactics HERE
  • First of all thanks to squ97bjd for the big job
    It is probably the most accurate and extensive data analys on O&G in 4 years time.

    For gnasher herd it is probably redesign from first years ( initiative 4 + M5+ swiftride/beasts)and recent points drop to have made them worth .

    For sure there are some units which need redesign (i.e. common orc eadbashers, all mounted eadbashers ,Trolls, splatterer, boar chariot, spider riders)

    The balance overall picture shows that we are mid tier ( together with KoE) so small point changes (+/-) are expected.