[LAB] Gathering ideas about Oath, virtues and characters

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  • [LAB] Gathering ideas about Oath, virtues and characters

    Greetings a new thread which Fokus on one of our main parts I dare to say.

    Characters and virtues. As always this thread will be moderated so stick to the topic thanks :)



    First of all I have a question which was raised by @WhammeWhamme and which is quite important.


    In short our character has a complexity level. Let's say it is a value of 10.

    If you could spend points in "power" (1 weak 10 high) and overall you can't go over 10, how would you rate the combination of characters, virtues and oaths.



    Next question is specific about the grail Oath.

    Do you prefer it as upgrade or own entry? How many choices?
    Other topics will follow

    I will add question to this post. Feel free to answer all of them at once if you are new

    Edit1
    How do you see the paladin in comparison to the Duke? Fighting prowess. Leadership. Equipment and overall usage

                    

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    The post was edited 1 time, last by Klexe ().

  • For me personally out of 10:
    • Character 3
    • Oath 2
    • Virtues 5


    This enables cheapish builds which can get some punch with oaths or high end builds with virtues added


    Grail Oath should be imo a own entry and one of a kind

                    

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  • I'm not sure whether your question was around complexity or power.

    For complexity:
    Character - 1
    Oaths - 3
    Virtues - 6

    The base character shouldn't be complex at all. We need mount options and that's basically it. Oaths and Virtues need to be more complex

    For power:
    Character - 2
    Oaths - 3
    Virtues - 5

    The base character should have some power but most of the power should come elsewhere.


    For grail oath, I'd prefer it to be an upgrade but if the only way to get a decent power level from it is to create a separate entry then that would be ok.
    Never argue with Idiots. They drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.
  • I prefer it as both options.

    As an option for Duke and Paladin and have a new entry that is a real fighter: Grail Saint.

    So character complexity, a bit more than now because we need a new character entry to represent a grail character that its fighting capabilities are on par with the top tier enemies.

    oath complexity should be similar as now, it should focus to be an specialisation,

    crusader oath you are better vs rank and file than an oathless char
    questing oath you are better vs beasts monster than an oathless char
    grail oath you are better equipped, have more flexibility and are better vs char than an oathless char

    Finally virtues should get the most of the complexity budget and should allow diferent play-stiles in the army and really change how you play all your army depending on the virtues your characters take

    So

    Characters: 2
    Oaths: 3
    Virtues: 5
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  • Characters :2
    Oaths:3
    Virtues:5

    For grail oath: I'd like an upgrade. And a specialised character. So both options.

    I somehow agree with the board. About keeping our heroes with human stats, but with awesome virtues.
    Maybe a Grail hero..moving a few stats slightly up, atributes that may improve with years of training. For instance, if a grail knights has an extended lifespan; something like OS or Agi can go up to 7. But thats about it.
    I would much rather we get our strength through "divine" rules. Like Divine Attacks and Lightning Reflex
  • Characters:
    A basic human stat line is fine, if the current one can be referred to as such. That is, I like the Duke being on par with a Knight Commander, who is a dedicated combat character in EoS. I guess I’d be fine with something closer to the Marshal as well, and thus cheaper, as long as the lost “power” is added elsewhere.

    Oaths:
    The question oath is in a really good place right now and could definitely serve as a benchmark, in terms of design, if additional oaths are added. An oath adds 2-4 rule changes, one of which is a general improvement to the character (bastard sword) and 1-3 smaller specialisation rules (immunity to fear, easier to charge units causing fear, +1 to hit units causing fear).

    I do think that the power level of any added oath should be lower than this though. Questing dukes are already great and should really only be eclipsed by the grail character.

    I would like the potential power of the 0-1 grail character to be significantly greater than that of any other character in the book and maybe having its own entry would be the best way to achieve this. However, I do like oaths for fluff reasons, so if there is sufficient design space for significant improvements even if it remains an oath, that would be great.

    Virtues:
    My main issue here is that too much is built into a single virtue. I’d much rather have smaller virtues and the option to take two of them, or possibly a split into greater and lesser virtues, allowing you to take either one greater or two lesser virtues. I like where piety is at as a virtue, but dislike where might is at, both in terms of power level and complexity.

    I don’t really know where that leaves me in terms of rating the combination. Overall it’s a weird way to rate things, since they’re interdependent. I guess it’s supposed to say something about where the power of a KoE character is derived from - stat line, oaths or virtues, but in this context a 2 should correspond to a weaker stat line then the one the duke currently has - there are plenty of weaker vanilla characters out there.

    For the might duke it may be something like 3-2-5 and for a questing duke with renown and blessed inscriptions it could maybe be 4-4-2. Trying to average this over every possible character I guess I’d go with something like 3-3-4, or, if the grail oath stays an oath, 3-4-3.
  • I dont know how to talk about powerlevels with only a number, so i will show a full picture to make miself understood:


    They are just ideas, points are totaly off and they need tweak on rules and prices for sure:

    lord.png


    saint.png

    Notice only the grail saint has access to favours. This way we could have all the range of powerlevels

    From normal oathless duke/paladin ( knight commander powerlevel) to grail saint virtued and favorued ( vampire, wodtg lord powerlevel )

    And its also important that the grail saint opens a lot of modelling possibilities for a center piece model that is still in fluff and character of the army.
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  • Slap a divine attacks and +1agi, +1A on grail oath with a price-hike and I will call an errantry war in celebration.

    Characters - 2-3 (depending on if we can keep grail as an upgrade or not)
    Oaths - 3-4 (depending on if grail oath will be actually good)
    Virtues 4
    "In the end rules are just the groundwork for 2 players to have an agreement on how the game is played. If you friends/gaming group is fine with it you can do what ever you want with the game." - Smart Guy on the T9A forum

    "By the Lady, is that Elderberries I smell?" - Duke Niemar of Snowfall's Eves
  • Sir_Sully wrote:

    Klexe wrote:

    The advantage of an extra grail Oath character is that you can get more flexibility in his base stats line.
    The disadvantage of not having it as an upgrade is that you can't put a Paladin or a Duke in a unit of Grail knights.
    This.

    Either we get a proper T1 statline lord that can be validated as a loner or we get a T2 that can join units. A T2 that cant join units is incredibly meh, since we wont get R5 or W4 without a hippo (with which we cannot join anyway).
    "In the end rules are just the groundwork for 2 players to have an agreement on how the game is played. If you friends/gaming group is fine with it you can do what ever you want with the game." - Smart Guy on the T9A forum

    "By the Lady, is that Elderberries I smell?" - Duke Niemar of Snowfall's Eves
  • That’s assuming the same rules keeping non-Grail characters out of Grail knights stay, for all we know Grail knights profiles or limitations could change as well. If they’re stronger and capped at a lower maximum amount, we could potentially see a change. Or some other fluffy rule that only allows one character no matter what, regardless of oath
  • Marcos24 wrote:

    That’s assuming the same rules keeping non-Grail characters out of Grail knights stay, for all we know Grail knights profiles or limitations could change as well. If they’re stronger and capped at a lower maximum amount, we could potentially see a change. Or some other fluffy rule that only allows one character no matter what, regardless of oath
    Yeah, they should have added that rule to the unit instead of the oath.

    Pure: Can only be joined by models with grail oath or beloved. Only a single model with grail oath can join a unit with this rule.

    Done. No more stupid 0-1 for a virtue that is not even good enough outside of supporting roles.
    "In the end rules are just the groundwork for 2 players to have an agreement on how the game is played. If you friends/gaming group is fine with it you can do what ever you want with the game." - Smart Guy on the T9A forum

    "By the Lady, is that Elderberries I smell?" - Duke Niemar of Snowfall's Eves
  • Marcos24 wrote:

    That’s assuming the same rules keeping non-Grail characters out of Grail knights stay, for all we know Grail knights profiles or limitations could change as well. If they’re stronger and capped at a lower maximum amount, we could potentially see a change. Or some other fluffy rule that only allows one character no matter what, regardless of oath
    Using the blessing & Roland you have a 4+ aegis against all ranged damage. With a unicorn damsel + Aether Icon (total of MR3) you can have a very scary unit that doesn't even need to worry too much about alchemy and would be a serious threat to pretty much anything.

    You can be pretty sure that the restriction for characters will stay because it is a lot harder to get to that level with just one fighting character.

    Duke Niemar wrote:

    Yeah, they should have added that rule to the unit instead of the oath.

    Pure: Can only be joined by models with grail oath or beloved. Only a single model with grail oath can join a unit with this rule.

    Done. No more stupid 0-1 for a virtue that is not even good enough outside of supporting roles.
    I don't see grail oath characters changing from 0-1 regardless of whether it's an upgrade or a separate entry. The issue isn't the 0-1, but that the option isn't powerful enough to justify the 0-1 restriction. Fix the power level of grail characters (should be > Questing in many circumstances) and we don't have a problem.

    If it's not limited at 0-1 then I don't think the Grail oath's power level will be high enough.
    Never argue with Idiots. They drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.
  • @Sir_Sully

    That was my point. As of right now, the oath itself doesn't justify a 0-1, we have the worst from both ends so to speak. It was originally made to limit the grailbus' power with too many grail lords in it, but they restricted it on the wrong end. I just pointed out a better alternative to what "they" made by restricting the unit instead. Since it was a problem with the unit, not the character... But instead they put the restriction on the character and made a relatively weak upgrade even weaker instead of fixing the problem where it was played.
    "In the end rules are just the groundwork for 2 players to have an agreement on how the game is played. If you friends/gaming group is fine with it you can do what ever you want with the game." - Smart Guy on the T9A forum

    "By the Lady, is that Elderberries I smell?" - Duke Niemar of Snowfall's Eves
  • Even with 2 or 3 lords inside a grail bus it is still ridiculous.... People could also play 15 Questing with lords and no one does that....

    Vc can play 2 killer lords inside vc. So quite frankly it was just a plain fear to restrict it without thinking it through imo

                    

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  • My solution to the 0-1 does only allow one grail lord per grail unit.

    It fixes the problem without putting a 0-1 on a character that does not deserve it, yet.
    "In the end rules are just the groundwork for 2 players to have an agreement on how the game is played. If you friends/gaming group is fine with it you can do what ever you want with the game." - Smart Guy on the T9A forum

    "By the Lady, is that Elderberries I smell?" - Duke Niemar of Snowfall's Eves
  • if you restrict the unit,

    you could have 2 units of 8 grails, each with a grail character.( doble grail duke or grail duke and grail bsb )

    So the 0-1 is not equivalent to the change you propose.

    Anyway we will try to make a LAB with less restrictions than what we have now, and the ones left we will give full reason for their existance be it fluff or balance wise.
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