Balance Update 2.1 & 2.2

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The brand new army book for Infernal Dwarves is finally available, along with a small surprise! Remember that it is a beta version, and provide us your feedback!

  • Also another important factor is that though KoE and EoS are geographic competitors there is plenty of other enemies which are not human. When KoE spend most of their time fighting OnG, BH, SE, DE, VC - factions that are not really known for their use of blackpowder there is little incentive to change if what you possess is good enough - which the continued existence of Equitaine clearly points it is.

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    Team Croatia ETC 2019 Captain ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ HEROES AND VILLEINS OF THE 9TH AGE
  • WEll, if we're talking about giants and helicopters and steam engines...
    This world has giants that don't collapse under their own weight and suffocate because of the square cube law. That means that atmospheric composition is different, there are stronger materials than in our world and perhaps even the force of gravity is different. Clearly, that means steam engines are much easier to build.

    Q.E.D.
    I have whirl’d with the earth at the dawningWhen the sky was a vaporous flameI have seen the dark universe yawning,
    Where the black planets roll without aim;
    Where they roll in their horror unheeded, without knowledge or lustre or name.
  • Giladis wrote:

    Also another important factor is that though KoE and EoS are geographic competitors there is plenty of other enemies which are not human. When KoE spend most of their time fighting OnG, BH, SE, DE, VC - factions that are not really known for their use of blackpowder there is little incentive to change if what you possess is good enough - which the continued existence of Equitaine clearly points it is.
    Why would the KoE fight vampires? Surely they would honour their greatest and most valiant king.
    I have whirl’d with the earth at the dawningWhen the sky was a vaporous flameI have seen the dark universe yawning,
    Where the black planets roll without aim;
    Where they roll in their horror unheeded, without knowledge or lustre or name.
  • Marcos24 wrote:

    @Casp well put it this way, Agenkf Sigmar is all imagination and no realism, and Warhammer Fantasy was a historically accurate game in comparison, which would you prefer of the two?
    Fully desagree here.
    "malpierre" skaven, Mithrill, wardancer WHFB was full of imaginative solution to justify specific rules complety unrealistic.

    The main difference between WHFB and AoS, is just the difference between high fantasy and dark fantasy, no question of imagination here
    (Even if dont forget that before been dark fantasy, WHFB was also a humorous univers, where fun, private joke and second degre was everywhere )

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  • WHFB was high fantasy just not over the top ridiculous high fantasy.

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  • @Casp The elements you picked of course are purely imaginative, but that’s a part of the world. look at the overall Warhammer fantasy world and compare that to the overall age of Sigmar world and it’s not even close.

    think of it like this 1-10. With a game having all realistic elements being 1, and pure fantasy being 10. You have a historical game being 1, lord of the rings being close to a 5, give or take point, WHFB a 7ish, and AoS a 10 plus extra credit
  • Well in fact have to admit.. just never open any fluff from AoS ;)
    But here is discuss from T9A not AoS, and i just said we should not focus too much on realism, and that it become a useless constraint. Otherwise it will become hard to bring the small goofie and fun background that lot of the community wait, because each time ther will be the small warning.. wait do this idea is realistic ? Do this justification enough ? etc..

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  • @Casp I understand but for a lot of us, we don’t look for that stuff, it just jumps right at our faces. So minimizing that as much as possible would be ideal for me.

    Second, age of Sigmar has 0 practicality outside of the one book made to allow people to use the old fantasy races. There isn’t even an “earth”, it’s kinda of like “do what you want, believe whatever you want, who cares, just paint some models and pretend their armor actually allows them to too move normally and fight, or don’t, who cares, get drunk

    We bring up at least some realism to prevent it form heading in that direction

    have you ever played a role playing game with friends?
  • Eldan wrote:

    WEll, if we're talking about giants and helicopters and steam engines...
    This world has giants that don't collapse under their own weight and suffocate because of the square cube law. That means that atmospheric composition is different, there are stronger materials than in our world and perhaps even the force of gravity is different. Clearly, that means steam engines are much easier to build.

    Q.E.D.
    Well, the technological preconditions and theoretical knowledge to create steam powered machines were there in the 16/17 th. ed....hell even the romans had the theoretical..and to a small scale even practical, knowledge .

    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeolipile
    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_steam_engine

    And according to the old WHF background it took an outstanding genius to create the steam tank...
    whfb-de.lexicanum.com/wiki/Leonardo_da_Miragliano
    warhammerfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Leonardo_da_Miragliano
    (clearly based on Leonardo da Vinci)....sometimes, the spark to initiate a big technological advance won`t start /catch on for various reasons (the time is not ripe ...yet).
    They were not able to redouble , only (barely) to maintain the existing ones ..which is already a big feat and hard even for the best Engineers.

    So, all in all it IS believable , could be well possible, that such a thing can exist in a late medieval/early modern society.
    Veteran of the Chaff Wars
  • An aeropile is not a steam engine. And I mentioned it on the last page. There's no real pressure vessel, no pistons, no useful work done. The metallurgy of the time couldn't have made a pressure vessel.
    I have whirl’d with the earth at the dawningWhen the sky was a vaporous flameI have seen the dark universe yawning,
    Where the black planets roll without aim;
    Where they roll in their horror unheeded, without knowledge or lustre or name.
  • I don't want to start a fight, but a gun is a pressure vessel. And the pressure in the chamber is way over the one needed for steam engines.

    It is true that building a working steam engine is hard. But if someone would travel back in time (lets say to a year 1500) with blueprints of a steam engine and explain the principle and details to a group of master craftsmen I strongly belive that they would be able to make it work.
  • Eldan wrote:

    An aeropile is not a steam engine. And I mentioned it on the last page. There's no real pressure vessel, no pistons, no useful work done. The metallurgy of the time couldn't have made a pressure vessel.
    well, did I said "even the Romans could have made a steam tank" or something along the line? :) ..I said that the theoretical knowledge about steam (and it´s potential power) was there...and then I mentioned 16/17th cen.
    Veteran of the Chaff Wars
  • Marcos24 wrote:

    have you ever played a role playing game with friends?
    Yeah i play a lot when younger. Its a good exemple. I start with JRTM (lord of the ring) his specificity was to be ultra realistic for fight and wound.But in fact, it was useless and make it not a really good rpg. Next rpg generation become less realistic , and really better. (now its not exactly same issue, as its more realism about rules mecanism that was an issue in thos rpg)

    Lets take the 1+ EoS armor for exemple, if we want to be realistic, we could say its the barding, ok its work, but not really fun. But with imagination we could have lot of other reason that build a real world worthy of interest. just 2 exemple in 3 sec of reflexion:
    Do all metal of T9A the same than our world ? Why that ? We could imagine new metal and new mix of metal. Some could be rare geographic. Or it could also be craftmen fabrication secret process, using other kind of ressource. Like silk secret was keep by china.

    Imagination could give us lot of good explanation. There is maybe 1% of historian, engeenir playing T9A, we dont need to make the background for them, but for the majority who dont care its its realistic or not, but just want a credible justification for a fantasy world where dragon and magic exist.

    Ivar K wrote:

    It is true that building a working steam engine is hard. But if someone would travel back in time (lets say to a year 1500) with blueprints of a steam engine and explain the principle and details to a group of master craftsmen I strongly belive that they would be able to make it work.
    Well if you look some automate of greek; we can imagine that if knowldge travel in time they even antic man could have done a lot. Look at Anticythère mecanism.

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  • I think that for a fantasy world to work it needs strong internal realism. Everything must make sense in that worlds concept.

    I think magic same way as physics. There are rules and priciples how it works. The inhabitants of the world might not know those priciples and the reader does not need to know them. But the certain way of concistency shows, even if details are not told.
  • @Ivar K & @Marcos24

    Consistency and realism should not be confused.

    Of course T9A wolrd need consistency. Only a coherent universe allows a good immersion.
    But this doesent require any realism at all.

    In fact a real genius, create world by imagination, that is fully consistent, and with minimum ratio of reality.

    But there is really few genius, and majority of writer or creative people lack of imagination, and just inspire themself from what they know. (imagination from other creative past, or reality)

    The most T9A will suceed to find imaginative solution for the world, rather than inspire themself from reality, the most stronger our univers will be be, and convince new people of the quality of T9A.

    Get a realistic univers is the easy solution and will certainly not convince lot of people that T9A fluff worse to forget the old world. It will reassure the first reader during a first time. For exemple ok i recognize the T9A geographic , i am not lost so not afraid. But if i continue like this it will become boring.

    Get a consistent univers, with original and imaginative concept is more risky at beginning, you will have to convince. But once you succed, people start to appropriate the univers and will be really more immerged into this complety new universe.

    I recommand some author, like Jack Vance, that in my opinion, was able to search deep into his imagination to build world.

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    The post was edited 3 times, last by Casp ().

  • Marcos24 wrote:

    You guys are putting all this thought and logic and reasoning into why we don’t have guns... not one person has asked how the heck there could be a STEAM TANK and HELICOPTER? First steam locomotive didn’t exist till the first half of the 19th century...
    That's true and untrue. The technology behind steam locomotives (the steam engine) has existed much longer than that. For starters Thomas Savery patented a steam powered pump in 1698. Steamboats were first trialed in the USA in 1787.

    Going back even further, steam powered devices were available in the First Century AD so the idea of steam power wasn't even new in 1698. It was just the point at which human metalurgy became good enough to create a steam boiler capible of withstanding the high preasures generated by steam power as we think of it today. As has been pointed out T9A's world has magic which could have accelerated the development of metalurgy.

    EoS having this tech is earlier than real world I agree. In the real world, all the technology was available in 1698 which is over 100 years before the Steam Locomotive was inveted. Nobody thought to put it all together in that way. EoS are very technology driven and while the steam tank is a stretch, it's not so much of a stretch as you're implying. It might be more rudimentry than GW's representation but as @Giladis points out that doesn't mean T9A doesn't have scope to consider that.

    Additonally, I'd comment that if EoS are able to mass produce rifles and cannons and Volley guns (which is late 18th early 19th Century), they'd have the metalurgy skills required to create a steam boiler.

    On the helecopter, it's widely accepted that the concept was thought up by Leonardo Da Vinchi which is well before the steam engine was patented by Savert. If Leo had suceeded it's not unreasonable to think that other power sorces would have been applied to the idea. Railway locomotives use electricity and Diesel in the UK, not steam.

    Again Dwarfs having mass produced rifles suggests they'd have the ability to put together a rudimentary helecopter. Given said helecopter can be brought down by longbow fire, I'd suggest that it's pretty rudimentary.


    On the KoE technology question. Maybe reliance on foreign support is also part of the reason - KoE doesn't have the capibilites to mass produce the items and resources required for gunpowder weapons and the King doesn't want to rely on EoS for miliatry support. If we did rely on them for milatry supply and had a war with EoS, we'd be on the back foot.

    That would be the equivilent of the USA buying Russian fighter jets instead of developing their own. KoE hasn't developed their own because they don't have the infrastructure, spare manpower or resources to do so.
    Never argue with Idiots. They drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.
  • Tyranno wrote:

    Sir_Sully wrote:

    WhammeWhamme wrote:

    If you tell people to shut up and go away
    I didn't say that. I was much politer than that. Please do not put words in my mouth.
    It was still rude though. And I can see Whamme's point of "why bother when this is the reaction".
    You are of course, completely correct - it was rude. Just as rude as rude staff members coming onto the public formus and say things like: That's not in the fluff but I'm not going to tell you what the fluff is.

    The only purpose that this sort of comment serves is to make said staff member feel big and important and to belittle and exclude the public forum community. It's as analogous as saying "go away and let us develop the game little, ignorant people". It's just as analogous as my comment was to "shut up and go away". It was much politer but has the same connotations.

    I apreciate that might not have been the intent behind WhammeWhamme's original statement but that's how it came accross to me. I, prehaps ill advisedly, got involved at that point and I tried to explain how his comment came accross, less concisely and precisely - I was angry. WhammeWhamme said and/or implied he didn't see an issue with how his comment was interpreted (i.e. as Wgo away and let us develop the game little, ignorant people") - possibly because I didn't explain myself well. That caused me to ask him to go away.

    If his comment was intended the way I understood it, then I stand by my comments and you can add in any choice four letter words you can imagine me using. Also take into account that I'm British and we tend to use ruder 4 letter words than the Americans. :)

    If it's not then I've misunderstood Whamme's comments but I did attempt to clarify both here and by PM before making the comment you are referring to.

    But all of this is irrelevant to the thread title, so can we move on and focus on KoE? If anyone has issues with what I'm saying & posting in regard to this please can you either take this out of the thread or call a mod.
    Never argue with Idiots. They drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.