2.1 Beta - Feedback

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  • 2.1 Beta - Feedback

    To follow my fellow ACS I created this thread for feedback only (no discussions).

    Please give us your constructive feedback, preferably for entries you've actually played with the new rules.
    This way I can summarize the feedback and relay that information to the RT so changes might be made for the final stage of the patch.
    :UD: :WDG: :DE:
  • Army Rules and Items


    Death if only the Beginning (Hereditary)
    The +2 Casting Value changes the magic phase as a whole. Especially the non-large height models suffer without need.
    Standard Height units that suffer: Skeletons (except min sized), Skeleton Cavalry, on Archers, Scarab Swarms, Vultures, Characters on Foot, Necropolis Guard.
    The gigantic units also took a hit while their popularity is low: Battlesphinx, Dreadsphinx, Colossus and Sha Guardian Characters.
    The Hereditary should be changed to only increase the Casting Value when Large Height models.

    As stated the magic phase changed drastically. When healing is required an extra dice has to be used to reliably succeed in casting the spell. Then there is still a chance of dispelling and binding scrolls. The extra risk makes the use of the non-large units even more unlikely. Magic phases are completely nullified with these extra dices used while some elements of the book really rely on that healing.

    Another idea is to use Veil Tokens to get the healing effect off. Maybe the number of Tokens that has to be spend should depend on unit height.

    A suggested alternative:


    Feldmarshal wrote:

    I'm okay with increasing the casting value to heal, but it would be awesome if not reaching the increased value would only not trigger the attribute, and not the entire spell, i find it too punishing as it is now
    :UD: :WDG: :DE:

    The post was edited 4 times, last by umbranar ().

  • First game with 2.1 version:

    Played a MSU of constructs with blocks of skeletons in core.

    Master divination and adept evoc book of arcane mastery.

    Against a SE with one adept of cosmo and one adept of druidism.

    The main fact of the game is that: with ONE adept of druidism he raised more points than me. :)

    So, this was a first confirmation of my fears about the attribute nerf. Even with 3 dice i failed some casting attempts which contributed to ruin the whole magic phase.

    If the attribute remains like this, i think we will very frequently not cast more than one healing per magic phase.

    The fact that you have to use three dice just to heal 2HP (with a consequent risk of failure) makes that most of the time, you just won't try to heal anything and use your dice to cast missile or buff with normal values. So, basically, my first impression is the healing tax we pay on all our units is becoming way too expensive for what it will bring now.

    The post was edited 7 times, last by Ezekiel57 ().

  • Played two games with this version so far, both against vc with dragon and terrorgeist.
    My list was 4*15 guards, 3 sphynxes, 2 catapults and all archers in core.

    Basically units of 15 guards are really cost effective, sphynxes are decent but too swingy, archers are still pretty crappy but my main concern is the low range, id rather pay them a bit more but have 30 range; since you have to spread them out it's really hard to concentrate all the shooting on the same unit. Healing is really hard as of now, you risk completely wasting a magic phase by trying to heal, i often found myself not using them because of the importance of letting combat buffs in.

    I'm okay with increasing the casting value to heal, but it would be awesome if not reaching the increased value would only not trigger the attribute, and not the entire spell, i find it too punishing as it is now.

    Catapults never do anything but they have a great psychological effect on the opponent's monsters, and against non fearless factions give you the chance of winning first turn, so i'll still use them, the cost is maybe a little too high.

    I tried divination but low range without spending much on magic was a bad thing, gonna try cosmology next games.
    Just an average Italian bully
  • Ezekiel57 wrote:

    First game with 2.1 version:

    Played a MSU of constructs with blocks of skeletons in core.

    Master divination and adept evoc book of arcane mastery.

    Against a SE with one adept of cosmo and one adept of druidism.

    The main fact of the game is that: with ONE adept of druidism he raised more points than me. :)

    So, this was a first confirmation of my fears about the attribute nerf. Even with 3 dice i failed some casting attempts which contributed to ruin the whole magic phase.
    Last time I've missed all shots with my cannons, I think we need cheaper cannons :/
  • Have you tried adapting to the changes? Like master cosmo for low cv buffs since divination have huge values combined with ud atribute (why would you 3 dice that anyway? Not reliable) and unnering strike nerf. What was good before might not be still good after patch. New meta is coming in boys. Divination is passe now.

    And also of course se raised more points since they are elite army and probably pay more points per wound, my guess.
    Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
  • Feldmarshal wrote:

    I'm okay with increasing the casting value to heal, but it would be awesome if not reaching the increased value would only not trigger the attribute, and not the entire spell, i find it too punishing as it is now.
    Thats a good suggestion for ACS to pass on.
  • Slayer Zabojcow wrote:

    Ezekiel57 wrote:

    First game with 2.1 version:

    Played a MSU of constructs with blocks of skeletons in core.

    Master divination and adept evoc book of arcane mastery.

    Against a SE with one adept of cosmo and one adept of druidism.

    The main fact of the game is that: with ONE adept of druidism he raised more points than me. :)

    So, this was a first confirmation of my fears about the attribute nerf. Even with 3 dice i failed some casting attempts which contributed to ruin the whole magic phase.
    Last time I've missed all shots with my cannons, I think we need cheaper cannons :/
    :| 3 dice are neccessary to cast all our spells with the attribute. But 3 dice are not enough to be absolutely sure to cast the spell. And we can't decently use 4 dice for every spell we cast, i think you agree with this. And if we fail a casting attempt with 3 dice our magic phase is ruined. I think you also agree with this. Wasting magic phase is definitely not a good thing but especially for UD who need magic buffs in views of their statlines/cost. SO our ability to heal is way less effective than before. So the healing tax we pay as undead (hello 9pts skeletons) is becoming too expensive, yes. I dont't understand what is wrong in this reasoning.


    Ciara wrote:

    Have you tried adapting to the changes? Like master cosmo for low cv buffs since divination have huge values combined with ud atribute (why would you 3 dice that anyway? Not reliable) and unnering strike nerf. What was good before might not be still good after patch. New meta is coming in boys. Divination is passe now.
    I thought my magic magic build and my 3 dice casting attempt was an adaptation. If the adaptation means that UD have to forget 2 or their lores and exclusively play with cosmology, i think there is a bug in the patch.


    Ciara wrote:

    And also of course se raised more points since they are elite army and probably pay more points per wound, my guess.
    Yes. And he got it for "free", (just by choosing druidism). As a UD player, I don't. That's the point.


    Blonde Beer wrote:

    Feldmarshal wrote:

    I'm okay with increasing the casting value to heal, but it would be awesome if not reaching the increased value would only not trigger the attribute, and not the entire spell, i find it too punishing as it is now.
    Thats a good suggestion for ACS to pass on.
    +1, very good suggestion.

    The post was edited 2 times, last by Ezekiel57 ().

  • Blonde Beer wrote:

    Feldmarshal wrote:

    I'm okay with increasing the casting value to heal, but it would be awesome if not reaching the increased value would only not trigger the attribute, and not the entire spell, i find it too punishing as it is now.
    Thats a good suggestion for ACS to pass on.
    I will add it to my list of possible solutions :)
    :UD: :WDG: :DE:


  • Wouldn´t that make it an absolute no brainer to ALWAYS cast with the healing buff without the risk to lose the spell because of the increased casting value? More so when the hiero can target another unit with the heal?

    Would not make sense in my opinion.


    I also think some additional boost to the healing of the "non offender units" could be ok, but the large and monstrous things including chariots don´t need any help, they will still work with increaded casting values...they would also work without magic support, and magic and healing ias only the thing that pushed them over the top.
  • Ciara wrote:

    Have you tried adapting to the changes? Like master cosmo for low cv buffs since divination have huge values combined with ud atribute (why would you 3 dice that anyway? Not reliable) and unnering strike nerf. What was good before might not be still good after patch. New meta is coming in boys. Divination is passe now.

    And also of course se raised more points since they are elite army and probably pay more points per wound, my guess.
    Or Master Evocation and a Cosmo Adept

    IMHO the hit is a bit strong for Divination, the UD meta will evolve to other path and maybe Divi will be used by an Adept on no heal mode. I gonna test a list with this combo this week end

    UD Community Support

  • Ezekiel57 wrote:

    :| 3 dice are neccessary to cast all our spells with the attribute. But 3 dice are not enough to be absolutely sure to cast the spell. And we can't decently use 4 dice for every spell we cast, i think you agree with this. And if we fail a casting attempt with 3 dice our magic phase is ruined. I think you also agree with this. Wasting magic phase is definitely not a good thing but especially for UD who need magic buffs in views of their statlines/cost. SO our ability to heal is way less effective than before. So the healing tax we pay as undead (hello 9pts skeletons) is becoming too expensive, yes. I dont't understand what is wrong in this reasoning.
    I agree with that, cant deny simple math. But its still risk you decide when to take on. If you cant cast it reliably then dont. Or take risk and dont complain when it fails. Or dont use ud atribute. Or use buffs with lower casting value. Anything which wont make you ruin your own magic phase. Look like now you have to make choices to have strong magic via spells or atribute. It is better than no brainer divination+hourglass? We will see. I think healing in ud was deemed to strong and thus it was nerfed. It was meant to be less effective. Thats why the patch happened.

    Ezekiel57 wrote:

    I thought my magic magic build and my 3 dice casting attempt was an adaptation. If the adaptation means that UD have to forget 2 or their lores and exclusively play with cosmology, i think there is a bug in the patch.

    You got it wrong. By adapt i mean something more than just throwing one dice more on spell. Try different builds like master cosmo and adept divination instead. This way you wont "forget" 2 of their lores, i dont know how you get that idea in first place but okay. Before i guess it was nice to have in like 100% lists master divination with hourglass and that was fine?

    Ezekiel57 wrote:

    Yes. And he got it for "free", (just by choosing druidism). As a UD player, I don't. That's the point.

    You always have access to healing while se have to pick path for it on their characters and even then its just 1w atribute or one spell after all.

    Ezekiel57 wrote:


    Blonde Beer wrote:

    Feldmarshal wrote:

    I'm okay with increasing the casting value to heal, but it would be awesome if not reaching the increased value would only not trigger the attribute, and not the entire spell, i find it too punishing as it is now.
    Thats a good suggestion for ACS to pass on.
    +1, very good suggestion.
    I have some concerns about that but berti already said that.

    UD meta will probably adapt, it wont be as strong as before, which was aimed by patch, but it still might be really nice and will force ud players into making decisions on list level. I hope. Game will be much more interesting.
    Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
  • Magic feels really nerfed, especially div is mostly cast without healing, and even then the number of spells that can be tried with 2 die is reduced, so double nerf to div.
    It was not necessary to nerf all healing, the offender were only a few troops and their healing, so nerfing those, with points, instead of breaking the iron rule of "no changes until AB rework" would have been a lot better. Now the whole army gets punished for using one of their features - healing - instead of getting those offenders in line.
  • Ciara wrote:

    Ezekiel57 wrote:

    :| 3 dice are neccessary to cast all our spells with the attribute. But 3 dice are not enough to be absolutely sure to cast the spell. And we can't decently use 4 dice for every spell we cast, i think you agree with this. And if we fail a casting attempt with 3 dice our magic phase is ruined. I think you also agree with this. Wasting magic phase is definitely not a good thing but especially for UD who need magic buffs in views of their statlines/cost. SO our ability to heal is way less effective than before. So the healing tax we pay as undead (hello 9pts skeletons) is becoming too expensive, yes. I dont't understand what is wrong in this reasoning.
    I agree with that, cant deny simple math. But its still risk you decide when to take on. If you cant cast it reliably then dont. Or take risk and dont complain when it fails. Or dont use ud atribute.

    I agree. We can play an UD army without the attribute. But we pay points for this healing ability on every of our units. So if we choose to not use the attribute, we loose these points. And we just get a verminslave who crumbles for 9 pts. That's the problem.

    The post was edited 2 times, last by Ezekiel57 ().

  • Again. If you dont want or cant afford to cast 10+ spell with 3 dices then maybe dont go with ud atribute this time or during this magic phase. I didnt mean to do it whole game. Probably you will have to 4 dice such spells if you want it reliably or use path with lower casting values.
    Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Ciara ().

  • Ciara wrote:

    Again. If you dont want or cant afford to cast 10+ spell with 3 dices then maybe dont go with ud atribute this time or during this magic phase. I didnt mean to do it whole game. Probably you will have to 4 dice such spells if you want it reliably or use path with power casting values.
    So are you saying that casting 1 spell per turn (4 dices) and raising 7 skellys for an army that has taxed units and is supposed to have a magic phase above average is fair?
  • Drakkanor wrote:

    Ciara wrote:

    Again. If you dont want or cant afford to cast 10+ spell with 3 dices then maybe dont go with ud atribute this time or during this magic phase. I didnt mean to do it whole game. Probably you will have to 4 dice such spells if you want it reliably or use path with power casting values.
    So are you saying that casting 1 spell per turn (4 dices) and raising 7 skellys for an army that has taxed units and is supposed to have a magic phase above average is fair?
    It's "just a possible choice" and, you know, it's "not brainless". :thumbsup: