Pinned Patch 2.2 Feedback

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  • I think you've also missed that the whole point of dropping the cost of things people find irrelevant because they are not used often is to make them more effective for cost so they are relevant. That's more or less the epitome of 'opening doors' you're complaining isn't happening. Buffing things that are already used isn't opening doors, because those doors are already open. Not to mention that whether they are relevant (popularly used) or not according to you is based solely on your subjective impressions, whereas the updates information of that is largely based on carefully, painstakingly collected (and publicly available) tournament usage data.

    Now, you can argue that those drops may not be enough to make a big enough difference, or that some things that shouldn't have got left out. But if that is the case the data led approach taken will over time make those things drop if they don't get used until they do. In addition, as has been mentioned, it's more difficult to fix internal balance in over performing factions (eg because internal buffs to already strong factions require a cautious approach, lest one overshoots and makes the faction even further over perform in a different way). So bringing VC towards the average should make more meaningful buffs for the sake of internal balance more meaningful.

    Data Analysis

  • @VampsinMD

    Fair enough. I agree with you, the next step is to gather data on what has changed. The biggest issue is that objective measures to analyze the impact of changes require results. The smaller the change, the more results are needed. So time is needed for tournaments to be played out and results to come in. The option would have been "don't do the 2nd round of changes" rather than "External Expert feedback and community feedback guiding adjustments of the data". As DanT mentioned, many people said that there should have been a human check for the first set of changes in multiple communities. The things is, that's what the last couple of months and this half of the patch were. The human check on adjusting what still needed adjusting.

    I gotta agree with DanT here. The project is kind of screwed no matter what it does. When a human check isn't instituted, there are complaints about THAT because some changes simply Do Not Work, despite being recommended by the data driven approach. Yet here is an example of other people complaining about the human check because they disagree with it.

    From what I've read and has been stated, the way the overall patch worked was "first data driven changes are instituted, then a second approach with a human check (EE and Community feedback) to attempt to minimize mistakes is done". While it would have been great to add data to this second round, it's not feasible. The amount of "data" we would get over one or two months would be useless because 9th Age simply IS that well balanced. The amount of data we need to be able to get meaningful results is QUITE high, and is well beyond what we could reasonably get in a month or two.
  • It might be possible to better ensure human (EE /Community (ACS)) feedback is further corroborated or at least not contradicted by the data though. Both by improving what the data can tell us in how we collect and analyze it, and by checking each against the other more systematically.

    I believe the former is in the process of happening already, and the latter is pretty likely to improve as it evolves as well.

    Data Analysis

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Hachiman Taro ().

  • Just to not let this wondrous thread die just yet.

    Me and @Grouchy Badger had a little chat today about the 2.2 patch. The discussion about VC starts around the 59 min mark ;)


    EDIT: Perfect got this on a brand new page too, enter page 27!

    Rules Clarification

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    T9A: Skirmish Campaigns
  • Rellzed wrote:

    Squee wrote:

    Rellzed wrote:

    But the terrors don't want to go in CC in the large majority of cases and if they do they are quite mediocre in CC due to strengh 5 and no good rules for it, so it can't be really called a monstermash lists. They shine against other monsters of low wounds units.
    A massive drawback - except against infantry where its offset by the autohits :)
    Come on, let's try to not be honest here.They-don't-want-to-go-in-CC
    It's a fact

    If you want to elaborate, I'll be happy to explay how and why in PM :) (and how to move to counter them if you need)
    Its a "fact". Are you assuming I'm terrible at the game because I'm not very active on the forums? :D
  • Depends a lot. You always can put it in a fight against single models that have lower agility than the terror.
    You can also put it in a fight with St.4 infantry and benefit from stomps too, especially when you have left march bubble and can´t escape a charge.
    Design of the terror also has the screaming into CC (instead of normal attacks), even in oponents turn.
  • berti wrote:

    Depends a lot. You always can put it in a fight against single models that have lower agility than the terror.
    You can also put it in a fight with St.4 infantry and benefit from stomps too, especially when you have left march bubble and can´t escape a charge.
    Design of the terror also has the screaming into CC (instead of normal attacks), even in oponents turn.
    What?

    It has happened in a pinch that I've put the Horror into CC.. for example charging a flank if I have an overrun into the front in the same round of combat, but the Horror really only is a Terror/Thunderstomping Monster on paper.

    Fighting STR4 infantry? On it own it will likely die against any infantry block. Res6 is very well, but with no real save, a huge base and AGI2 how many wounds are we expecting here? .

    The reality is that either the infantry will have higher agility (and grind a few screams off before it gets to scream), or Res4 meaning Stomps only wound on 3+.. or both.


    So no.. it doesn't "depend a lot". This is a flying, shortranged warmachine that is very expensive, because it can defend itself a bit.
  • berti wrote:

    Depends a lot. You always can put it in a fight against single models that have lower agility than the terror.
    You can also put it in a fight with St.4 infantry and benefit from stomps too, especially when you have left march bubble and can´t escape a charge.
    Design of the terror also has the screaming into CC (instead of normal attacks), even in oponents turn.
    Apart of what Wesser correctly said, it has AGI 2. Tell me a single model worth its points with less Agility, i´ll wait.


    No one that has ever played a Shrieking Horror would say that it´s a combat monster. No one.

    The post was edited 1 time, last by hugomac ().

  • The Shrieking Horror is a combat monster.

    A support combat monster. It clips into fights alnongside more durable friends.

    Combo charges are often too risky - but blocking opponents with a pack of dogs and screaming at them is a 101 tactic.

    202 is to set up a suitable counter so that the opponent cannot clean up the dogs by charging them.

    303 is to make use of units, terrain and trigonometrix to ensure that the Shrieking Horror will clip in its countercharge.

    Its not really that advanced, and anyone telling you it is are lacking in either understanding or willingness to proliferate "their" tricks.

    Bottom line - the Shrieker charges or threatens to perform charges or threatens to perform countercharges in almost all games on top level - where there is not a significant ranged threat keeping the Shrieker in check.

    The Shrieking Horror is a combat monster.

    ....

    I do find this entire discussion more than a bit gloomy. Significant qualms are being quelled.

    Some feel VC are unjustly treated. Perhaps they are. I know not.

    The course set by T9A to each year incrementally reduce power is however a most malign path and I do not predict its a path that will cause our ranks to swell with nerds anytime soon.

    Be it in staff or in the battlefields.

    Mmmm...
    Hermund Vigerust Endressòn Furu - Savage Sage of the Norse
    Faux-pro player and ETC vagabond.
    Enjoys the company of deluded nerds and women of unquestionably low morale.

    Do not fall to the folly of the best laid of plans - for the mind of man is fickle in the face of the dice gods.
    Give yer high fives where yer opponents dice have been blessed, and in equal give yer handshakes when dice fall in malicious ways.
  • hugomac wrote:

    berti wrote:

    Depends a lot. You always can put it in a fight against single models that have lower agility than the terror.
    You can also put it in a fight with St.4 infantry and benefit from stomps too, especially when you have left march bubble and can´t escape a charge.
    Design of the terror also has the screaming into CC (instead of normal attacks), even in oponents turn.
    Apart of what Wesser correctly said, it has AGI 2. Tell me a single model worth its points with less Agility, i´ll wait.



    Forsaken One ? Hellmaw ? How many models do you like me to mention ? :)

    Full Layout Coordinator

    Translation Team DE

    VC Community Support

    Supporter of Veil of the Ages

  • Lich King wrote:

    hugomac wrote:

    berti wrote:

    Depends a lot. You always can put it in a fight against single models that have lower agility than the terror.
    You can also put it in a fight with St.4 infantry and benefit from stomps too, especially when you have left march bubble and can´t escape a charge.
    Design of the terror also has the screaming into CC (instead of normal attacks), even in oponents turn.
    Apart of what Wesser correctly said, it has AGI 2. Tell me a single model worth its points with less Agility, i´ll wait.
    Forsaken One ? Hellmaw ? How many models do you like me to mention ? :)
    Maybe you need to re-check the point costs ? Hellmaw is 280 with 5+ Aegis and Forsaken One is 380 with 5+ Fort (and 50x100 base) .. while you are speaking for a monster that CANT march if its outside the generals bubble and that cost 490 pts with 6+ fort
  • manfread wrote:

    Lich King wrote:

    hugomac wrote:

    berti wrote:

    Depends a lot. You always can put it in a fight against single models that have lower agility than the terror.
    You can also put it in a fight with St.4 infantry and benefit from stomps too, especially when you have left march bubble and can´t escape a charge.
    Design of the terror also has the screaming into CC (instead of normal attacks), even in oponents turn.
    Apart of what Wesser correctly said, it has AGI 2. Tell me a single model worth its points with less Agility, i´ll wait.
    Forsaken One ? Hellmaw ? How many models do you like me to mention ? :)
    Maybe you need to re-check the point costs ? Hellmaw is 280 with 5+ Aegis and Forsaken One is 380 with 5+ Fort (and 50x100 base) .. while you are speaking for a monster that CANT march if its outside the generals bubble and that cost 490 pts with 6+ fort
    I'm not saying these models were comparable at all, mate. I'll rather focus on not making too general statements, just as @hugomac did. That's why I answered his question the way I did. ;)

    Full Layout Coordinator

    Translation Team DE

    VC Community Support

    Supporter of Veil of the Ages

  • Folomo wrote:

    Dreadsphinx, Battlesphinx and Colossus are agility 0, 1 and 2/0 (depending on weapon) respectively. They cost 450, 480 and 410/425.
    this is not a debate but let me answer this also.
    Colossus is 410 (was 420 pre 2.2) with 3+ save and 50 x 50 base
    Dread Sphinx is Autonomous with 4+ save and 50 x 100 base cose is 450 (was 460 pre 2.2)
    and last
    Battle Sphinx is 50 x100 base 0-3 units 4+ armor at 480 pts (this is the nearest one but stil it have the 4 rides with 2 attacks each at agil 3 and smaller base meaning less models are striking back..)

    anyhow as i sayed its not a debate about monsters :D

    @Lich King tnx for clarifying mate :D agree to your point.
  • Herminard wrote:

    The Shrieking Horror is a combat monster.

    A support combat monster. It clips into fights alnongside more durable friends.

    Combo charges are often too risky - but blocking opponents with a pack of dogs and screaming at them is a 101 tactic.

    202 is to set up a suitable counter so that the opponent cannot clean up the dogs by charging them.

    303 is to make use of units, terrain and trigonometrix to ensure that the Shrieking Horror will clip in its countercharge.

    Its not really that advanced, and anyone telling you it is are lacking in either understanding or willingness to proliferate "their" tricks.

    Bottom line - the Shrieker charges or threatens to perform charges or threatens to perform countercharges in almost all games on top level - where there is not a significant ranged threat keeping the Shrieker in check.

    The Shrieking Horror is a combat monster.
    Noone is saying you can't get a Shrieking Horror into combat, and ofc there are favourable ways of getting it into combat, but there's a reason the Horror has a ranged attack

    The Horror is taken specifically to kill enemy single models - targets that will generally destroy or cripple it in CC before it can strike. So while it is true that a Shrieking Horror zones stuff it does not threaten with countercharges. Actually declaring a charge (except against the relatively few models with lower AGI that it can hope to oneshot) is a sign that a) I don't have good targets for the Horror or b) I've screwed up.

    If the Shrieking Horror lost its Thunderstomp or Terror or heck.. the ability to scream into combat in return for a price decrease it would make it substantially more powerful (if perhaps a teensy bit more boring).

    A Shrieking Horror isn't a combat monster anymore than Elven Archers are a combat unit because they have OWS4 and Lightning Reflexes