Pinned DL Update - 2ed_2020_beta3 Discussion/Feedback

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  • DL Update - 2ed_2020_beta3 Discussion/Feedback

    IoRi78 wrote:



    Fellow denizen of the nine circles new version of our book is up!

    Some good news on the horizon!

    In order to make it easier to distinguish the data and feedback, feel free to discuss the new book and it's opportunities here.

    Quick design notes:

    Solo characters were given the option to increase their manifestation allowance by stepping up and becoming the army general. Those that can cower away in units were already considered safe and had a good advantage over the solo characters. The 25 pts was a compromise to fit within guidelines.

    Imps were debated and debated and their main drawback was being able to survive. Their role is to stand back and shoot over standard models to soften up the enemy or to take out chaff...but this wasn't really doable when a Pyro spell can seriously hurt the unit by wounding on 2's. They were a little too squishy when it came to attacks with S4 or better. They are scoring and so needed to be able to stand a little better when trying to achieve an objective.

    Eiodolons were designed as an anti-armor unit, however, the previous versions were not generating the results that we had hoped. In situations against fast armored troops, the eidolons were most of the time out of position or the unit still passed its armor saves. With 1's always failing anyway, the old way only allowed for 2's and 3's to be a failure. This left the unit useless against those 3+ WDG units that popped out of portals (and other similar units). We wanted to open up the parameters on what armored targets the unit would be useful against. So we were able to increase the potential damage of the unit by increasing the failure range to 1-4 on dice rolls. The hard shooting guidelines were another problem and rule stacking was something that needed to be trimmed down and/or eliminated. Accurate is just a way of having a rule that grants a boost to shooting. We can do the same thing without a special rule by adjusting the Aim of the unit. This is what we did and went back to the old range of the weapon to help keep the power and price of the unit down. So really, Eidolons were unchanged, but the weapon "Dark Fire" was modified. This carries over to other units as well such as the Sentinel and Harbingers.

    Bloat Flies...this unit has had many changes and revisions and is one of the hardest units to find a role. Previously it was just a flying Clawed Fiend that was slower. Brazen Beasts had better impact/first round damage potential and Hoarders have that grinding ability. So what possible roles were left for Bloat Flies? Should we just eliminate the unit altogether? Much like the US A10 Thunderbolt is built around its Gatling gun, the Flies are built around their Acid Blood. This ability was for me a keeper...its just cool and has flavor. We have few high strength and matching AP units compared to other armies that can field great weapon units other than a handful of characters. We thought with their connection to Gluttony that this would be a good unit to have at a higher strength...something that is like "taking a bite" out of something. The background lends itself to allowing a powerful strike ability, but the unit is bloated and slow. So to help represent this, the unit was given a higher OFF, Strength, and AP value. But like several species, its offensive power is short lived and/or limited...therefore, the 2 attacks. This is also to help keep the cost down, as we(I) wanted the target price to be 300 or below. The new pricing also doesn't penalize bigger units or smaller units as its a straight 100 pts per model...easy to remember. (this just happens to be an observation and appreciate RT keeping the price reasonable to test) The saves of the unit, being Gluttony, was streamlined to match that of the Maw. Again, we wanted the Acid Blood to have a role in the unit, but didn't want the unit to be a pure kamikaze type of unit. The DEFF of the unit was lowered to help with this role and to balance the higher OFF. If paired with the Maw's Greater Dominion, this unit can deal some pretty good damage output. I personally think it is a nice counter to units like Chosen. The march range was increased to help accommodate the base size of the unit. With a 75mm depth and only a 12" march, this greatly reduced the actual range of the unit because 4" of it was countered by the 1" rule and 3" base. This also helps streamline the march move to match that of the Great Beast and Brazen Beasts. I think it has more defined roles now of screen (with KF), counter charge, and monster hunter.

    I hope this helps shine a light on some questions and hope you guys enjoy playing the army and trying new builds. I'm really enjoying seeing more and more Scourges come out of hiding. :thumbsup:
    B. "MF’ing" Jones - Member of the CGL .

    DL/ADT - TT

    Campaign Design-Broken Isles

    Freelance Design

    PT Team-Mid Atlantic USA

    CGL 2018 Worst Player Winner

    CGL 2019 3rd Place

  • I like flies as monster hunters. With digestive vomit they can potentialy threaten even Res7-8 Targets. Not sure though, that 2 att per model is enough. There is a reason why great weapons and halberds are unpopular on forsworn (large model with just 2 attacks).
    Want to try harbringer on flying beast of prophesy with them. Question - if I put guiding red haze on then - what happens when they wound themselves?
    DH - main
    WODG - secondary
    OK - reborn be my childhood army
    DL - side project

    The post was edited 2 times, last by Happy Aspid ().

  • Red Haze has been asked and answered along with the mirrored scales....
    I don’t know the exact wording of the answer, but perhaps @Eisenheinrich and his crew know exactly where to find it. It’s going to come up a lot, so may be a good idea to post as an FAQ .
    B. "MF’ing" Jones - Member of the CGL .

    DL/ADT - TT

    Campaign Design-Broken Isles

    Freelance Design

    PT Team-Mid Atlantic USA

    CGL 2018 Worst Player Winner

    CGL 2019 3rd Place

  • skipschnit wrote:

    Red Haze has been asked and answered along with the mirrored scales....
    I don’t know the exact wording of the answer, but perhaps @Eisenheinrich and his crew know exactly where to find it. It’s going to come up a lot, so may be a good idea to post as an FAQ .
    Bloat fly with red haze rolls a 1 to hit -> close combat attack is distributed onto its health pool -> if the attack wounds and the model fails its fortitude save, it suffers 1 hit with toxic attacks.
  • @Eisenheinrich: thats never going to happen, right?
    Bloat fly with red haze rolls a 1 to hit --> close combat attack is distributed onto its health pool -> attack wounds --> attack is magic --> better use my aegis save.
    so unless i want it to hit iitself with toxic attacks, its not going to happen, correct?
    My DL-blog: Legions from the frozen wwastes

    My painting league: Painting challenge 2020
  • Theokrit wrote:

    @Eisenheinrich: thats never going to happen, right?
    Bloat fly with red haze rolls a 1 to hit --> close combat attack is distributed onto its health pool -> attack wounds --> attack is magic --> better use my aegis save.
    so unless i want it to hit iitself with toxic attacks, its not going to happen, correct?
    Great catch.
    My army Wip blogs:
    Siege Daemons (DL)
    Knights of Nethys (WDG)

    Friend me on Pokemon Go: 4753 8292 4177
  • Theokrit wrote:

    @Eisenheinrich: thats never going to happen, right?
    Bloat fly with red haze rolls a 1 to hit --> close combat attack is distributed onto its health pool -> attack wounds --> attack is magic --> better use my aegis save.
    so unless i want it to hit iitself with toxic attacks, its not going to happen, correct?
    Can’t say “never” as it’s the player’s choice which save to use. If the player goofs, then that situation “could” happen. Maybe he wants to kill off his last wound for some reason...
    Now maybe for You, that will never happen. :P I’ve done plenty of dumb stuff regarding rules and/or forgetting them. :oops:
    B. "MF’ing" Jones - Member of the CGL .

    DL/ADT - TT

    Campaign Design-Broken Isles

    Freelance Design

    PT Team-Mid Atlantic USA

    CGL 2018 Worst Player Winner

    CGL 2019 3rd Place

  • Dragus wrote:

    First of all, thank you very much for the release. You make an aweswome work with this proyect.

    About the update:

    - Dark Fire: very interesting. We'll try.

    - R3 Imps: very welcomed improvement. With this and volley fire, it's time to invest some points in theese.

    - Increased point allowance on big guys: I really don't think it will matter very much. Concretely, with the miser is almost completely useless (iron husk and chitinous scales aren't pickable, and it's difficult to fullfill 200 points with the others... and unnecessary). I think noone was asking for an improvement like this, and I don't know why have you taken this decision. Could you clarificate this, please?

    - Bloat Flies: they are interesting, but with this numbers this unit recalls me the former rules of Dwarf Golems, which were not very popular by the way, and those golems had also multiple wounds (D3). The new flies are exactly like that golems, but with highet mobility, much bigger footprint, worse deffense, and without multiple wounds... I think the new flies are going to be a failure, they are really not worth the cost of 100 points per model. Again, I didn't read anyone asking for this (I saw someone suggesting 3attacks S5 AP2).

    Summary: 2 good updates, 2 suspicious (IMO, of course)
    posted here so that we can separate the updates and feedback. Thanks
    B. "MF’ing" Jones - Member of the CGL .

    DL/ADT - TT

    Campaign Design-Broken Isles

    Freelance Design

    PT Team-Mid Atlantic USA

    CGL 2018 Worst Player Winner

    CGL 2019 3rd Place

  • oreogolem wrote:

    The new bloat flies are different enough from BB and CFs that I'm considering them. Which also has me looking at the Veil Serpents and I'd love to hear people's experience using them as I'd be modelling minis into either them or bloat flies (and yes I know I could magnetize bases and such)
    The main thing to remember with modeling Bloat flies is that despite the classic GW model with the big flies being ridden by plague bearers, the T9A Bloat Flies are Beasts, not cavalry.

    And that's notable because a Harbinger on flying Great Beast of Prophecy is Cavalry, so can't hide in the unit despite a matching base and size.
    My army Wip blogs:
    Siege Daemons (DL)
    Knights of Nethys (WDG)

    Friend me on Pokemon Go: 4753 8292 4177
  • skipschnit wrote:

    Theokrit wrote:

    @Eisenheinrich: thats never going to happen, right?
    Bloat fly with red haze rolls a 1 to hit --> close combat attack is distributed onto its health pool -> attack wounds --> attack is magic --> better use my aegis save.
    so unless i want it to hit iitself with toxic attacks, its not going to happen, correct?
    Can’t say “never” as it’s the player’s choice which save to use. If the player goofs, then that situation “could” happen. Maybe he wants to kill off his last wound for some reason...
    Correct. For instance, if the unit is lost either way, you might want it to pop in your opponent's turn and not in your following player turn (in order not to grant your opponent a post-combat pivot to charge whatever they like).
  • Thanks for the update team, kinda interested in trying the eidolons now when their armour penetrering abilities arent outperformed by ap 2 units like previous. Still miss the old mobile shooting flank charger threat of old.

    I Think that imps sadly missed the mark since its their shooting that is off, they are still as immobile, they still lack the ability to countershoot and as thus they are a sitting duck always, they still lose combats to practicly every unit out there aswell as their range being worse and without ap compared to a crossbow. So the problem with imps arent fixed, the deal have just been sweetened a little.

    Flies... they have a really bad, they arent elite at all and a flying unit with aegis aimed at 100 ppm will always have horrible output. Compare to Knights of the sun griffon at 95ppm they are lower in elite factor and output than basically the most basic monstrous infantry in the game.
    They are just worse than the old hold Guardians with S6 ap 3 2A MW d3 which didnt work, this is so similar...

    I really love the change to allowing more allowance to certain GDs, its a Good change and honestly im really surprised that it was allowed. My hats off to the team :).

    A question, nothing changed with the manifestations. Do the team see them being in a good spot? Because there seems to still be a wast amount of manifestations that are practicly unused, same as it was during ETC.
    Isnt it a lost opportunity to not change/ replace them before gold? Because if they are meh now, they will most probably remain meh for years to come.

    Overall a really good patch :)! A underused unit will most likely see more play. Two underused units will still be severly underused and character builds possibly opening up.
    Now I just hope that we can stop weakness washing the poor daemons (looking at flies) and use what precious little time that is left to improve the manifestation section.

    Perhaps the project could ask and see what manifestations are deemed unfit for the book and replace them?
  • Kapten Kluns wrote:

    Thanks for the update team, kinda interested in trying the eidolons now when their armour penetrering abilities arent outperformed by ap 2 units like previous. Still miss the old mobile shooting flank charger threat of old.

    I Think that imps sadly missed the mark since its their shooting that is off, they are still as immobile, they still lack the ability to countershoot and as thus they are a sitting duck always, they still lose combats to practicly every unit out there aswell as their range being worse and without ap compared to a crossbow. So the problem with imps arent fixed, the deal have just been sweetened a little.

    Flies... they have a really bad, they arent elite at all and a flying unit with aegis aimed at 100 ppm will always have horrible output. Compare to Knights of the sun griffon at 95ppm they are lower in elite factor and output than basically the most basic monstrous infantry in the game.
    They are just worse than the old hold Guardians with S6 ap 3 2A MW d3 which didnt work, this is so similar...

    I really love the change to allowing more allowance to certain GDs, its a Good change and honestly im really surprised that it was allowed. My hats off to the team :).

    A question, nothing changed with the manifestations. Do the team see them being in a good spot? Because there seems to still be a wast amount of manifestations that are practicly unused, same as it was during ETC.
    Isnt it a lost opportunity to not change/ replace them before gold? Because if they are meh now, they will most probably remain meh for years to come.

    Overall a really good patch :)! A underused unit will most likely see more play. Two underused units will still be severly underused and character builds possibly opening up.
    Now I just hope that we can stop weakness washing the poor daemons (looking at flies) and use what precious little time that is left to improve the manifestation section.

    Perhaps the project could ask and see what manifestations are deemed unfit for the book and replace them?
    flies are stronger than before, if they will prove not enough adding one attack or cutting the price is quite simple. The quantity and quality of DL possible buff to them is way more of DH can do to old Hold guardians so in not applicable to them the comparison.
    Try them, I have done it and they are quite good in dealing with specific targets.

    Playtester

    DL-Comunity Support

    Master of the Coins

  • Its not a straight comparison but rather that the unit has a similar problem as hold Guardians had. Too specialized with too low attack numbers. And as I said, a flying unit with special saves will never have an impressive damage output at 100ppm. Its allowance are simply spent elsewhere. Just compare them to the flies of the old book and its much clearer. Same paths aviable to the faction, different versions of it but still aviable to buff the unit through army unique abilities.
    I tried the old flies of this book just as I will try the new, but im really sceptical. They seem lackluster and over specialized, and 140-150 ppm seem like a more reasonable amount of points to aim at designing them around so they will actually have some worthwhile output compared to other monstrous units with a 50x75mm base.
  • Kapten Kluns wrote:

    Its not a straight comparison but rather that the unit has a similar problem as hold Guardians had. Too specialized with too low attack numbers. And as I said, a flying unit with special saves will never have an impressive damage output at 100ppm. Its allowance are simply spent elsewhere. Just compare them to the flies of the old book and its much clearer. Same paths aviable to the faction, different versions of it but still aviable to buff the unit through army unique abilities.
    I tried the old flies of this book just as I will try the new, but im really sceptical. They seem lackluster and over specialized, and 140-150 ppm seem like a more reasonable amount of points to aim at designing them around so they will actually have some worthwhile output compared to other monstrous units with a 50x75mm base.
    to allow mix with Flying GD their price need to stay in this category, or they will eat all aves allowance.

    their damage output is superiorior to prevous flies, giving them 3 Attacks would be a gambit that risk to create a too powerfull units. Better safe than sorry is Always the way to go from RT.
    If they don't work a buff will be done in some way, but remember that we have already topped max eliteness allowed to the book. Is Always a game of short blanket, if we push from a corner an other will be naked.
    I have tried them and they work well against monsters, armored chavalry and lone characters with hight arm/res.

    Playtester

    DL-Comunity Support

    Master of the Coins

  • IoRi78 wrote:

    Kapten Kluns wrote:

    Its not a straight comparison but rather that the unit has a similar problem as hold Guardians had. Too specialized with too low attack numbers. And as I said, a flying unit with special saves will never have an impressive damage output at 100ppm. Its allowance are simply spent elsewhere. Just compare them to the flies of the old book and its much clearer. Same paths aviable to the faction, different versions of it but still aviable to buff the unit through army unique abilities.
    I tried the old flies of this book just as I will try the new, but im really sceptical. They seem lackluster and over specialized, and 140-150 ppm seem like a more reasonable amount of points to aim at designing them around so they will actually have some worthwhile output compared to other monstrous units with a 50x75mm base.
    to allow mix with Flying GD their price need to stay in this category, or they will eat all aves allowance.
    their damage output is superiorior to prevous flies, giving them 3 Attacks would be a gambit that risk to create a too powerfull units. Better safe than sorry is Always the way to go from RT.
    If they don't work a buff will be done in some way, but remember that we have already topped max eliteness allowed to the book. Is Always a game of short blanket, if we push from a corner an other will be naked.
    I have tried them and they work well against monsters, armored chavalry and lone characters with hight arm/res.
    super true id guess and since eliteness is relative to other factions there is a chance that others will be weakness washed in a similar way to DL. Which will spark the same feelings for them as it does for me.
    Currently I might be wrong but I have zero problem with competing against monsters and lone characters thanks to other options in the book.
    So I dont really see a use for these new flies either, maybe im wrong but they seem weak and sluggish. Compared to a lot of monstrous cav their output i mediocre at best. And that they have better damage than the old unplayed flies wont really fly.
    I mean they still have less output compared to tuskers even against their intended target. And horribly uneven against their unintended target.
    Shouldnt specialized mean better "than" against the perfect target, instead of what is currently true.

    On another note. Ive made an observation that the new "buff dependant" daemons style heavily favours larger sized monstrous units 5-6 in size. As a reason smaller sized units have become really rare 2-3.