EoS General Discussion thread

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  • Nerocrossius wrote:

    Eleanor wrote:

    Is the empire seen at the gaming tables, or is it one of the least used?
    Short answer: Empire has decent representation at recent tournaments.
    As for its tier performance in tournaments I would say that it's in the middle of the pack. EoS isn't an easy army to win with, but that's not to say it's weak. It has some difficult matchups with the top tier armies and that can complicate things and it often requires a lot of models on the table which can make it difficult to keep track of everything.

    Eleanor wrote:

    One more thing, a page or guide that teaches me how to make competitive lists in general? I only see tactics for specific units, I would like something more generic.
    There's nothing really like that on EoS sub-forum (yet at least). But you're welcome to ask for specific areas that you want to improve in your list building in this or any number of threads. There are a lot of very competent EoS tournament goers here.
    In the last year or so I've only been able to go to local tournaments and I only dabble in UB events every now and then, so I'm no expert. But I recently did a public walkthrough of building a list in my EoS blog/thread: HERE. You might get a few insights from that, but it was focused on building a competent list around a weird idea rather than generic ideas.

    I'm sure others will share some excellent insights, but below I'll share a few general EoS list building tips I've personally found to be helpful:
    Display Spoiler

    1. Invest in Magic. EoS has a very strong and flexible magic phase so getting 5+ spells and channel 4-5 is a trend among competitive EoS armies. There are successful ways to play less magic, but if you have to lean in a direction choose more magic than less until you get a feel for what you like to play.
    2. Take Scoring Units! It's easy to assume that EoS is just naturally good at scoring, but a lot of strong EoS armies come short on scoring units and this will severely hamper your ability to win games. I have a rule of thumb of at least four scoring units for my EoS armies. I think there are exceptions to be made for three if the scoring units you have are particularly durable, but I would discourage taking less than three scoring units.
    3. Take chaff. Not all EoS armies need chaff, but EoS chaff is so good that all armies can benefit from it. I recommend trying out a small unit of reiters or at least a unit of rangers. Always budget for 1-2 units of dedicated chaff and learn how and when to use them from trial and error. Once you know what kind of EoS chaff you like you can branch out into using Electoral Cavalry darts, infantry detachments, wizard apprentices or naked inquisitors--EoS has functional chaff everywhere once you get good at using it.
    4. Multiple Meaningful Synergies. EoS depends a lot on subtle synergies to give it the edge in its fights. It can be argued how strong some of these synergies are, but as long as you build some decent combinations they'll do you good. Exemplar's Flame with spearmen, Artificer + light infantry with artillery, Deathstar IG, Distracting engine + parry, multiple perception of strength spells with halberdiers, battle focus + hatred, cheap parent and support units with deep ranks and banners for high combat res, Light of Sonnstahl+to-hit modifiers, etc and etc. Try to avoid only having one strong synergistic block that you put all of your resources in however. It's usually better to build 3-5 strong synergies within an EoS army.
    5. Leverage Sunna's Fury. Whether you auto-take the steam tank, or run a million flagellants (or both :P ), I think Sunna's fury is a powerful backbone to EoS right now that should never be ignored.
    6. Manage Leadership. EoS depends on establishing layers of leadership. This means that protecting your BSB and general is important and if you want to play outside those bubbles you need to establish other leadership contingencies (Divination attribute, crown of autocracy, fearless, unbreakable, discipline order, or banner of discipline). If you run critical leadership characters in combat blocks put adequate defenses in place for them (Champion in the unit, 1+ AS, parry, aegis saves, Locket of Sunna, etc.). Otherwise, move your BSB and General to bunker blocks behind combat blocks to ensure that things won't fall apart on you. If you play a general on a mount ensure that you have tools to screen it from dangerous ranged attacks or have an effective bunker for it.
    7. Diversify Threats. If you run all cavalry or all infantry you can build strong armies, but you run the risk of RPS matchups. If you run a mix of both lightly armored, armored, infantry and cavalry, close combat and ranged, fast and slow units you will be better equipped to handle a diversity of matchups. For expensive cavalry units try to give them aether icons and cavalry characters obsidian rock to protection them from alchemy. For infantry run numbers that interact with panic checks well and ensure they have leadership reinforcement. Ensure that you have models that can screen for your main infantry blocks or run enough infantry that you have target saturation.
    8. Take Zoning Tools. Because EoS is a slower army it's easy to get outmaneuvered, especially by fast single model units. Zoning tools can help you mitigate this speed issue. Sometimes you can just have support units and light troops chaff zone weak areas, but you can also use aggressive zoning from things like flagellants or KotSG to push enemies out of areas. Artillery like volley guns (even the cannon one!) and the steam tank can provide 360 degree zoning to ensure that anything that goes around your combat units has backup threats to contend with.
    9. Have ways to deal with opposing chaff. It's easy to over-invest in slow EoS combat blocks that have enough buffs to be seemingly unstoppable, but you'll need some tools to clear the way for them. EoS has excellent shooting options with long range crossbows and harder hitting close range handguns and pistols. Magic missiles are also an effective way to clear chaff from redirecting you too badly. If you opt for running less of these ranged threats, then you need to run a higher quantity of combat blocks to make it harder to chaff everything.
    10. Have a Plan. T9A has a high skill curve both on the table and in list-building and this is particularly true for EoS. Having a good plan for what you want your list to accomplish will give you then focus you need to avoid getting distracted in EoS list building. Gunlines, all-comers, infantry based, cavalry based, etc. are all examples of paths that you can start an army with.

    Thank you so much Nero!

    I am going to read it with great interest, to see if I can fall in love again with my only army, because sometimes I think that a simpler army would suit me.

    The main problem I have is that being a relatively cheap army, I have a lot of miniature on the table and I always have problems when it comes to deploying and efficiently using synergies and detachment rules when there are elements of scenery, while other armies with Better stats and less miniature look like a missile hitting me.

    Thanks again!

    Edit: for example, what causes me the most problems is my basic infantry. It has always seemed to me like a tax that other armies do not have.

    I know that unit-to-unit comparisons should not be made, but it is inevitable for me to compare it with other basic troops and the result is disastrous costing 9/10 points. (For example barbarians of chaos)

    I know that my basic infantry is more expensive due to the possibility of using detachment rules and synergies with heroes, which inevitably leads me to think that a) I have to try harder than others to achieve mediocre results or b) invest points on heroes to match them, while my rivals don't need to invest those points in heroes.

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Eleanor ().

  • Eleanor wrote:

    One more thing, a page or guide that teaches me how to make competitive lists in general? I only see tactics for specific units, I would like something more generic.
    This is a very hard thing to answer generically.
    I applaud @Nerocrossius Herculean effort above :)

    Even defining "competitive" is not so trivial and depends on the players goals:
    All comers? RPS? Don't lose often? Get as many 20-0s as possible? etc etc

    My (very big picture) perspective is this:
    • The list needs to suit you
    • The list needs to have a clear playstyle/strategy
    • The list needs to be more than the sum of its parts
    • The list needs to have either few bad matchups or a lot of pretty good matchups
    • The list needs to have a game against the lists it is likely to play against (meta)
    • For most lists, consideration of objectives, and how it will play the against different opposing list types, is important


    The first one is bold because it isn't talked about enough. Few lists in t9a have the raw power to do the work for the player, so a list that doesn't suit you is pointless no matter how powerful it seems.

    Of course, each of these bullet points needs its own essay on "how to do that?", but one thing at a time :P


    A few quick generic thoughts on (starting) competitive lists with EoS:
    • Have one good combat unit from core (~40 halberds or 13+ knightly orders) at least 1 unit of 15+ light infantry
    • If using knightly orders take a knight commander with sonnstahl and a prelate on horse or altar
    • Don't rely on war machines (which doesn't mean don't use them)
    • Take a tank
    • Take a bsb
    • Take at least a wizard master and an altar or arcane engine
    • Have at least 1 substantial infantry unit that can hold the line, (IG or flaggies)
    • Balance having synergy/buffs/ranged damage etc with raw number of bodies
    (Note, these are generic/simplified. All of these rules can be broken by the right list.).






    Eleanor wrote:

    Edit: for example, what causes me the most problems is my basic infantry
    Do you mean heavy infantry?
    Halberds with an altar nearby is an incredible unit for its points (particularly if you have a wizard master in your list, and if not why not? :-P)

    (And yes that means you've paid points for the altar, but he has cast unerring strike for 3 turns, given hatred to 1-2 other units, and is now beating up a chosen lord in a duel ;) )


    Unit level points comparisons are mostly meaningless.
    Doubly so with EoS, because it is a synergy army.
    All that matters is the total ability of a 4500pt list.
    (Equally, the tank would be horrendously underpriced in some other armies; in EoS it is merely underpriced).
    List repository and links HERE
    Basic beginners tactics HERE
    Empire of Dannstahl HERE
  • Thanks DanT, my laat list against ID was this:

    Characters +

    Knight Commander [380pts]: Army General, Horse, Shield
    . Special Equipment: Obsidian Rock, Potion of Swiftness, The Light of Sonnstahl

    Marshal [230pts]: Battle Standard Bearer, Shield
    . Special Equipment: Death Warrant

    Prelate [300pts]: Horse, Paired Weapons, Plate Armour, Shield
    . Special Equipment: Hero's Heart

    Wizard [405pts]: Cosmology, Wizard Master
    . Special Equipment: Binding Scroll

    + Core +

    Electoral Cavalry [550pts]: Banner of Speed, Champion, 10x Knight, Knightly Orders, Lance, Musician, Shield, Standard Bearer

    Light Infantry [239pts]: Crossbow (4+), 18x Light Infantry

    State Militia [135pts]: 10x State Militia

    State Militia [135pts]: 10x State Militia

    + Special +

    Imperial Guard [477pts]: Champion, Great Weapon, 24x Imperial Guard, Standard Bearer

    + Imperial Auxiliaries +

    Reiters [190pts]: Brace of Pistols (4+), Heavy Armour, 5x Reiter

    + Imperial Armoury +

    Artillery [245pts]: Cannon (4+)

    + Sunna's Fury +

    Flagellants [241pts]: 18x Flagellant

    Steam Tank [475pts]



    I think i've done every point you hace tell me, but It fails badly against this one:


    1.Phrophet (Alchemy, army general, Kadim Chariot, lugar, shield, wizard master, flame of the east

    2.Vizier BSB, ring of desiccation

    ---Core

    24X Citadel Guards, champ, music, S.Bearer, pistol, spears, flaming standard

    20xInfernal Warriror, Blunderbuss, flaming standar, great waepon, music, standard bearer

    20x Shackled Slaves with paired wapons

    ---Special

    1x gunnery team, cluster amunition, titan mortar

    1x Infernal artillery, ether cloud, rocket battery

    1x Infernal artillery, kadim manifestation, naphta thorewer

    6x Kadim Incarnate

    5x Vassal Cavalry

    ----Instruments of Destruction

    1x Citizen giant, big bretoher, vaneb blssed maul

    1x Infernal Bastion.

    Its not better player than me (we have been played for too Many years, the last months to T9a), so im looking for advice. Nero posts have been very informative.

    Thanks a lot!
  • Writing to beat ID (or any specific army or list), and writing a generally competitive list are not really the same thing.

    A link to my beginners (and more) tactics thread is HERE (and there are other links in this post).
    A link to my general list thread is HERE.
    There you will find some EoS lists, some generic thoughts on list building, and lists for many other armies too (the ID ones are for the old book, I haven't updated them yet).

    For me, I think ID are pretty beatable by EOS, and I would focus on EoS armour.
    Some thoughts on your list (in general) below.


    Eleanor wrote:

    Thanks DanT, my laat list against ID was this:

    Characters +

    Knight Commander [380pts]: Army General, Horse, Shield
    . Special Equipment: Obsidian Rock, Potion of Swiftness, The Light of Sonnstahl
    sonnstahl and 5++

    Marshal [230pts]: Battle Standard Bearer, Shield
    . Special Equipment: Death Warrant
    Horse

    Prelate [300pts]: Horse, Paired Weapons, Plate Armour, Shield
    . Special Equipment: Hero's Heart
    Horse or altar


    Wizard [405pts]: Cosmology, Wizard Master
    . Special Equipment: Binding Scroll

    + Core +

    Electoral Cavalry [550pts]: Banner of Speed, Champion, 10x Knight, Knightly Orders, Lance, Musician, Shield, Standard Bearer
    13+, probably household standard


    Light Infantry [239pts]: Crossbow (4+), 18x Light Infantry

    State Militia [135pts]: 10x State Militia

    State Militia [135pts]: 10x State Militia

    + Special +

    Imperial Guard [477pts]: Champion, Great Weapon, 24x Imperial Guard, Standard Bearer
    Too few, probably a bad choice vs ID


    + Imperial Auxiliaries +

    Reiters [190pts]: Brace of Pistols (4+), Heavy Armour, 5x Reiter
    Nope, die too easily

    + Imperial Armoury +

    Artillery [245pts]: Cannon (4+)

    + Sunna's Fury +

    Flagellants [241pts]: 18x Flagellant
    too few

    Steam Tank [475pts]

    Generally, you have half committed to 3 combat units, so all of them are quite vulnerable and none of them can bully the ID.
    Your magic phase isn't quite enough.




    1.Phrophet (Alchemy, army general, Kadim Chariot, lugar, shield, wizard master, flame of the east

    2.Vizier BSB, ring of desiccation

    ---Core

    24X Citadel Guards, champ, music, S.Bearer, pistol, spears, flaming standard

    20xInfernal Warriror, Blunderbuss, flaming standar, great waepon, music, standard bearer

    20x Shackled Slaves with paired wapons

    ---Special

    1x gunnery team, cluster amunition, titan mortar

    1x Infernal artillery, ether cloud, rocket battery

    1x Infernal artillery, kadim manifestation, naphta thorewer

    6x Kadim Incarnate

    5x Vassal Cavalry

    ----Instruments of Destruction

    1x Citizen giant, big bretoher, vaneb blssed maul

    1x Infernal Bastion.

    Its not better player than me (we have been played for too Many years, the last months to T9a), so im looking for advice. Nero posts have been very informative.

    Thanks a lot!
    This list is very beatable by EoS.

    Here is a list from my thread, that isn't purposefully designed for ID, that I think would do OK in this match:
    KC-sonnstahl, talisman of shielding, general, horse, shield 385
    wizard master-div, talisman of void 400
    bsb-horse, shield, lance, crown of wizard king 280
    altar-ghostly guard, Great Weapon, Plate Armour, Locket of Sunna 665
    13 Knightly orders-shield, fc, household standard 611
    17 xbows 226
    13 militia 159
    20 swords 145
    24 flaggies 343
    tank 475
    5 kotsg-lances, mu 526
    LR wagon 280
    4495



    It would easily be possible to tailor this list further against ID.
    For example, the LR wagon becoming a cannon might be a good choice, and the altar is unlikely to need the locket (he could even become an arcane engine and a prelate on horse depending on how valuable you find the unerring strike).

    Hope some of this post, and the links within it, are vaguely useful :)
    List repository and links HERE
    Basic beginners tactics HERE
    Empire of Dannstahl HERE
  • Eleanor wrote:

    Thanks DanT, the Game was at 4000 points, but i thinks i can learn some things thanks to that lista.
    Ah, I didn't spot that, sorry.

    4000pts is probably worse for EoS compared to 4500pts.
    Not every army scales equally with different sized games, because of how the armies are constructed differently.
    EoS is probably always missing a fundamental piece at 4000pts.

    Equally, EoS can build some scary stuff at lower points (maybe 2000-2500), because light infantry spam filling core can be pretty scary at those points levels (although meta starts to matter even more here).

    Ask me here or PM me if you have any questions or anything is unclear (I was cooking dinner when I replied to you :P ), or you want some more 1-1 help with ID or list building.
    List repository and links HERE
    Basic beginners tactics HERE
    Empire of Dannstahl HERE
  • Eleanor wrote:

    wombat wrote:

    Eleanor wrote:

    The problem is that it is not fun for me nor for him. So we have agreed to go back to SA, as I am the only one who wanted to continue testing his ID list, but not anymore.
    That Sucks, if neither player enjoys the game it is only right that you or your friend tries out a different army and restore the fun factor.If you want to send me a P.M. with his exact list, I will give it a going over and see if I can come up with an EofS list that can compete.

    Myself, I have only played 1 game against the new ID with an unusual UD list of my own design, I Won 13...7 so rest assured ID can be beaten !!!
    Of course, i got it on .pdf, and the conversion to plain text was bad.
    Ill transcribe it here, first of all sorry for my bad english, if you dont understand something let me know.


    (it was a very different list that the one i expected)


    ---Characters

    1.Phrophet (Alchemy, army general, Kadim Chariot, (in my previus post i refer this unit as the bull because usually is on that mount), lugar, shield, wizard master, flame of the east

    2.Vizier BSB, ring of desiccation

    ---Core

    24X Citadel Guards, champ, music, S.Bearer, pistol, spears, flaming standard

    20xInfernal Warriror, Blunderbuss, flaming standar, great waepon, music, standard bearer

    20x Shackled Slaves with paired wapons

    ---Special

    1x gunnery team, cluster amunition, titan mortar

    1x Infernal artillery, ether cloud, rocket battery

    1x Infernal artillery, kadim manifestation, naphta thorewer

    6x Kadim Incarnate

    5x Vassal Cavalry

    ----Instruments of Destruction

    1x Citizen giant, big bretoher, vaneb blssed maul

    1x Infernal Bastion.

    He wons me 17-3 with my last list (posted up)

    :D :D

    wombat wrote:

    Will give it a good look and get back to you.
    Hi, I'm Back !

    Eleanor wrote:

    One more thing, a page or guide that teaches me how to make competitive lists in general? I only see tactics for specific units, I would like something more generic.
    If you follow Nerocrossius and Dan T's advice you can't far wrong !

    DanT wrote:

    This is a very hard thing to answer generically.
    I applaud @Nerocrossius Herculean effort above
    Fully agree.

    As to your problem v ID. You must bare in mind that ID is only in Beta stage and as such will have adjustments. The list you faced I would value in the 4600 pt range and will no doubt be toned down.

    Anyway, as promised I have tried to come up with a list that has a chance against the exact army you faced. I admit that whilst it does not have all the answers it should, hopefully have enough to give you a shot !

    EofS, 4000 pts.
    Characters, 1600 pts
    Prelate, General, Altar of Battle, Plate, Ghostly Guard, Sh, 585
    Wizard, Adept, Cosmology, Arcane Engine, Foresight, Lgt Arm, Alchemist Alloy, Book of Arcane Mastery, 480
    Marshal, BSB, Plate, Sh, 2 x Aether Icon, Obsidian Rock, Binding Scroll, 270
    Marshal, Pegasus, Lance, Plate, Sh, Basalt Infusion, 265
    Core, 1096 pts
    12 x Knightly Orders, Cav Pick, Plate, Sh, FCG, Stalkers Standard, 574
    15 x Lgt Inf, CBs, 200
    12 x Lgt Inf, CBs, 161
    12 x Lgt Inf, CBs, 161
    Special, 794 pts
    23 x Imp Guard, GWs, Plate, Champ, Standard, 454
    15 x Imp Guard, Plate, Sh, 170
    15 x Imp Guard, Plate, Sh, 170
    Imp Armoury, 510 pts
    Volley Gun, 190
    Rocketeer, 160
    Rocketeer, 160
    Total 4000 pts exactly.

    My thoughts, reasons, ideas re this list.
    First, you MUST deploy outside the range of the both Infernal Artillery batteries.
    Second, you must decide on Ranged Target priority,
    The main targets imo are
    the Giant, use Rockets. Even if you cant kill it, the Peg Marshal should be capable of finishing off the last couple of wounds.
    Vassal Cav, Use CBs
    Gunnery Team, use Magic Missile, 2 x Ice&Fire, Unerring Strike. All mounted to enhance Mobility and Height to draw LOS.
    After those I would consider taking out the Slaves,,,, that surprised you ! Reasons, They can be severely damaged by CBs and Volley Gun which will hopefully mean a weak spot in his line which you can exploit later.
    Pre Combat, I do not expect that with restricted operating space due to need to stay out of range of his artillery that you will not have time for fancy manouvers resulting in a head on clash. The exception being the Peg Marshal who with his Mobility and small footprint can use cover to not only hide but obtain a position to flank Charge. Very handy in either deleteing the Citadel Guards Spear bonus and or giving you option of pursuit angle.
    CC.
    The Imp Guard with GWs supported by Altar ( hatred ) and Engine ( lightning reflexes) will be more than a match ( supported by magic, Know thine Enemy, Prelate Aura Spells ) and capable of taking any of his combat blocks. The Imp Guard with Swords, Shields are not that Bad if supported. Consider Support Charges with Altar, Engine in this regard.

    TBH, the list may rely a bit too much on Artillery for my own personal taste but feel it is the best bet on this type of match up.

    If you have any questions or unsure about anything ...Just Ask !!!
  • Thank you all very much, you are very kind.

    In our group we are several friends, we play occasionally, (we get older) until a few months ago to eighth edition because we had not discovered ninth age.

    We have been playing exactly 20 years, I think, from invading hordes at he end of the fifth edition? (I dont remember well) with various armies.

    When we agree on a game we prepare the closed lists and we only reveal them to the rival at the deploy. My main rivals are: SA (against this army I have no big problems) WDG, OK and ID.

    Against WDG I always have problems with their individual miniatures. For example, the feldraks, it far exceeds me in maneuverability. Against OK the same thing, the double mammoth hunter is horrible. If ID starts to pose problems for me, I will end up being the ugly duck of the group. XD

    Apparently the meta I am used for is not very friendly hahahaha.

    I have to study the posts that you have advised me, THX a lot!.